I think Libertine's argument about economy is quite important, especially in the Tour. If Alpe d'Huez and La Toussuire are the only two ski resorts/towns willing to pay good money for a MTF or a descent finish, the options are limited. There are a lot of options in the Alps and Pyrenees, but if places like Avoriaz, Les Menuires/Valmorel, Les Arcs, Superbagneres, etc., aren't willing to pay enough money, we get the same MTF over and over again.
Still, a lot could be done with a better route design. Longer stages with more climbs would definitely be an improvement. When you hava 5-6 stages in the high mountains during a Tour, it's possible to make 1-2 of these at least 210-220 km with 4000m++ of climbing.
Still, a lot could be done with a better route design. Longer stages with more climbs would definitely be an improvement. When you hava 5-6 stages in the high mountains during a Tour, it's possible to make 1-2 of these at least 210-220 km with 4000m++ of climbing.
Nothing's wrong with them.
They've all got a mixture of terrains that suit various riders.
They all have various issues with routeing to accomodate the needs of their large entourages.
What's just challenging in dry & fine weather, maybe incredibly dangerous in wet & poor weather.
All face challenges related to roads that are designed with motor vehicles & pedestrians in mind.
All have to consider their finances, if a city's putting a big wad on the table, then it's going to get put on the route.
Ultimately, it's the riders making the race.
They've all got a mixture of terrains that suit various riders.
They all have various issues with routeing to accomodate the needs of their large entourages.
What's just challenging in dry & fine weather, maybe incredibly dangerous in wet & poor weather.
All face challenges related to roads that are designed with motor vehicles & pedestrians in mind.
All have to consider their finances, if a city's putting a big wad on the table, then it's going to get put on the route.
Ultimately, it's the riders making the race.
- May 20, 2009
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He's talking about the same thing. You are the one who seems to be ignoring that nowadays riders/teams will cover the race at 19Km/h and wait until the last 3 Km to attack. And second, do you expect all stages to be like this one?
Eshnar said:Pra Loup, Tour de France 1975:
Pra Loup, Tour de France 2015:
See the difference? That's what we're talking about here.
- Mar 24, 2011
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My remark was more about:cineteq said:
"They all have various issues with routeing to accomodate the needs of their large entourages."
and
"All face challenges related to roads that are designed with motor vehicles & pedestrians in mind.
All have to consider their finances, if a city's putting a big wad on the table, then it's going to get put on the route."
which are moot points, since we have a clear example here. Same finish town, no logistical problems whatsoever, but ridicolously easier route chosen.
As for the beloved "riders make the race"... do I really have to tell you again that I agree? Will you ever tell me, instead, what is wrong in trying to help them?
- Apr 7, 2011
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"Other
Climbs and Time Trials
By: Michele Ferrari
Published: 13 Oct 2011
Every year the presentation of stage races courses bring discussions on whether the path is more suitable for pure climbers or rouleurs-climbers.
In an attempt to propose a criterion based on numbers and not just opinions and clichés, I would like to express some considerations.
Most of the route of every stage race takes place on the flats and relatively easy hills (with average slopes of less than 7%): drafting gives significant advantages in both cases, advantages that are difficult to quantify and that differ from rider to rider (athletes of small size, in any case, have a greater benefit than bigger athletes).
I shall therefore compare typical time trial courses with climbs of an average gradient superior to 8%, where speed is reduced, making the advantage of drafting of little significance.
I calculated the difference in speed, on flat course and uphill, corresponding to a difference in required power equal to 5%:
- pedaling at 51.2 km/h on the FLAT requires 5% more power than pedaling at 50 km/h
(2625 vs 2500 are the square speeds): the difference between them corresponds to 1.7”/km, equal to 1.4”/min of effort.
The same happens even at lower speeds: pedaling at 41 km/h requires 5% more power than at 40 km/h (1681 vs 1600 are the square speeds): the difference corresponds to 2.2”/km, equal to 1.5”/min of effort.
- pedaling at 20km/h UPHILL requires 5% more power than at 19 km/h: the difference between the 2 speeds corresponds to 9.5”/km, equal to 3”/min of effort.
The same happens at lower speeds: 15.8 km/h and 15.0 km/h present a difference of 5% in required power output, corresponding to 12"/km and 3"min of effort.
Therefore, it is more difficult to make the difference in a time trial event than on a climb: a 5% gap between 2 athletes will be half as advantageous on a flat course compared to a climb.
In other words, an uphill finish (with an average gradient higher than 8%) of more than 30 minutes in duration is compensated by a flat course time trial of 60 minutes."
"Where are the Stage Races going?
By: Michele Ferrari
Published: 13 Dec 2008
In the last few years we have seen how the dominance of certain teams greatly conditioned the name of the final winner in the most important stage races.
The strength of such teams has been so dominant that it's been rather easy for them to control and determine the sequence of events during the most crucial stages, imposing such a high pace as to discourage and "clip the wings off" those riders fighting for the general classification and brave enough to attack early in the race.
All of this with the goal of preparing the ground for the attack of their captain/s just a few km from the finish.
We have indeed witnessed the extolling and triumph of aerobic POWER over ENDURANCE.
The same could be said about time trial stages, rarely longer than 30-50 minutes and ever more specialized: either for high-powered rouleurs or very light climbers.
I remember some editions of the TdF with time trials of 70-80 Km on tough courses with proper climbs and technical descents which could really show all the skills of the riders, especially endurance, intended as the ability to sustain a high effort for 90-120 minutes.
In a cycling scene that resembles all too much the same, without original ideas, made inflexible in its obsessions, it might be very interesting to propose a hard stage towards the end of the 3 weeks exclusively raced by a single rider per team.
While the rest of the peloton is being neutralized, the designed leaders (finally!) would face each other directly in the ultimate endurance test, where those able and brave enough to try, can be able to attack far from the finish in an almost individual confrontation."
Specialization in cycling and complete riders
By: Michele Ferrari
Published: 21 Nov 2010
In the last 30 years of cycling, 20 riders were able to win at least a 3-week stage race (TdF, GIRO, VUELTA) and at least one "Monument" Classic
(Sanremo, Flanders, Roubaix, Liege, Lombardia , World Championships).
In the last 10 years, only CUNEGO (Giro, Lombardia), VALVERDE (Vuelta, Liege), VINOKOUROV (Vuelta, Liege) and DI LUCA (Giro, Liege, Lombardia) managed the feat.
In the 90's, BUGNO (Giro, Sanremo, Flanders, World's), ROMINGER (Giro, Vuelta, Lombardia), BERZIN (Giro, Liege), JALABERT (Vuelta, Sanremo, Lombardia), OLANO (Vuelta, World's), ARMSTRONG (TdF, World's).
In the 80's, FIGNON (Giro, TdF, Sanremo), ROCHE (Giro, TdF, World's), HINAULT (Giro, TdF, Vuelta, Roubaix, Liege, Lombardia, World's), MOSER (Giro, Sanremo, Roubaix, World's), SARONNI (Giro, Sanremo, Lombardia, World's), LEMOND (TdF, World's), KELLY (Vuelta, Sanremo, Roubaix, Liege, Lombardia), MARTENS (Vuelta, Flanders, World's), ZOETEMELK (TdF, World's), POLLENTIER (Giro, Flanders).
It's easy to see how the number of riders able to excel at both types of events decreases over the decades.
In my opinion, there are several explanations.
The level of competition in the CLASSICS has increased steadily over the years, with more and more athletes aspiring for victory than in the past. This determined an exasperated specialization and finalization in training and racing calendar planning.
The same happened for STAGE RACES, with specialists focusing their efforts almost exclusively to the preparation of the grand tours.
Undoubtedly, the PSYCHO-PHYSICAL demands of a classic 1-day race are very different than those of a stage race, thus selecting those riders that are more suitable to violent efforts, rather than endurance and recovery skills.
THE COURSE characteristics of Classic races changed very little over the years, while stage races (especially Giro and Vuelta) decidedly designed the courses in favor of light riders, multiplying the number of uphill finishes and extreme climbing gradients.
This determined that riders suitable to stage races have been trying to reduce their body weight as much as possible, to the detriment of the absolute power necessary to excel in the Classics.
"
Climbs and Time Trials
By: Michele Ferrari
Published: 13 Oct 2011
Every year the presentation of stage races courses bring discussions on whether the path is more suitable for pure climbers or rouleurs-climbers.
In an attempt to propose a criterion based on numbers and not just opinions and clichés, I would like to express some considerations.
Most of the route of every stage race takes place on the flats and relatively easy hills (with average slopes of less than 7%): drafting gives significant advantages in both cases, advantages that are difficult to quantify and that differ from rider to rider (athletes of small size, in any case, have a greater benefit than bigger athletes).
I shall therefore compare typical time trial courses with climbs of an average gradient superior to 8%, where speed is reduced, making the advantage of drafting of little significance.
I calculated the difference in speed, on flat course and uphill, corresponding to a difference in required power equal to 5%:
- pedaling at 51.2 km/h on the FLAT requires 5% more power than pedaling at 50 km/h
(2625 vs 2500 are the square speeds): the difference between them corresponds to 1.7”/km, equal to 1.4”/min of effort.
The same happens even at lower speeds: pedaling at 41 km/h requires 5% more power than at 40 km/h (1681 vs 1600 are the square speeds): the difference corresponds to 2.2”/km, equal to 1.5”/min of effort.
- pedaling at 20km/h UPHILL requires 5% more power than at 19 km/h: the difference between the 2 speeds corresponds to 9.5”/km, equal to 3”/min of effort.
The same happens at lower speeds: 15.8 km/h and 15.0 km/h present a difference of 5% in required power output, corresponding to 12"/km and 3"min of effort.
Therefore, it is more difficult to make the difference in a time trial event than on a climb: a 5% gap between 2 athletes will be half as advantageous on a flat course compared to a climb.
In other words, an uphill finish (with an average gradient higher than 8%) of more than 30 minutes in duration is compensated by a flat course time trial of 60 minutes."
"Where are the Stage Races going?
By: Michele Ferrari
Published: 13 Dec 2008
In the last few years we have seen how the dominance of certain teams greatly conditioned the name of the final winner in the most important stage races.
The strength of such teams has been so dominant that it's been rather easy for them to control and determine the sequence of events during the most crucial stages, imposing such a high pace as to discourage and "clip the wings off" those riders fighting for the general classification and brave enough to attack early in the race.
All of this with the goal of preparing the ground for the attack of their captain/s just a few km from the finish.
We have indeed witnessed the extolling and triumph of aerobic POWER over ENDURANCE.
The same could be said about time trial stages, rarely longer than 30-50 minutes and ever more specialized: either for high-powered rouleurs or very light climbers.
I remember some editions of the TdF with time trials of 70-80 Km on tough courses with proper climbs and technical descents which could really show all the skills of the riders, especially endurance, intended as the ability to sustain a high effort for 90-120 minutes.
In a cycling scene that resembles all too much the same, without original ideas, made inflexible in its obsessions, it might be very interesting to propose a hard stage towards the end of the 3 weeks exclusively raced by a single rider per team.
While the rest of the peloton is being neutralized, the designed leaders (finally!) would face each other directly in the ultimate endurance test, where those able and brave enough to try, can be able to attack far from the finish in an almost individual confrontation."
Specialization in cycling and complete riders
By: Michele Ferrari
Published: 21 Nov 2010
In the last 30 years of cycling, 20 riders were able to win at least a 3-week stage race (TdF, GIRO, VUELTA) and at least one "Monument" Classic
(Sanremo, Flanders, Roubaix, Liege, Lombardia , World Championships).
In the last 10 years, only CUNEGO (Giro, Lombardia), VALVERDE (Vuelta, Liege), VINOKOUROV (Vuelta, Liege) and DI LUCA (Giro, Liege, Lombardia) managed the feat.
In the 90's, BUGNO (Giro, Sanremo, Flanders, World's), ROMINGER (Giro, Vuelta, Lombardia), BERZIN (Giro, Liege), JALABERT (Vuelta, Sanremo, Lombardia), OLANO (Vuelta, World's), ARMSTRONG (TdF, World's).
In the 80's, FIGNON (Giro, TdF, Sanremo), ROCHE (Giro, TdF, World's), HINAULT (Giro, TdF, Vuelta, Roubaix, Liege, Lombardia, World's), MOSER (Giro, Sanremo, Roubaix, World's), SARONNI (Giro, Sanremo, Lombardia, World's), LEMOND (TdF, World's), KELLY (Vuelta, Sanremo, Roubaix, Liege, Lombardia), MARTENS (Vuelta, Flanders, World's), ZOETEMELK (TdF, World's), POLLENTIER (Giro, Flanders).
It's easy to see how the number of riders able to excel at both types of events decreases over the decades.
In my opinion, there are several explanations.
The level of competition in the CLASSICS has increased steadily over the years, with more and more athletes aspiring for victory than in the past. This determined an exasperated specialization and finalization in training and racing calendar planning.
The same happened for STAGE RACES, with specialists focusing their efforts almost exclusively to the preparation of the grand tours.
Undoubtedly, the PSYCHO-PHYSICAL demands of a classic 1-day race are very different than those of a stage race, thus selecting those riders that are more suitable to violent efforts, rather than endurance and recovery skills.
THE COURSE characteristics of Classic races changed very little over the years, while stage races (especially Giro and Vuelta) decidedly designed the courses in favor of light riders, multiplying the number of uphill finishes and extreme climbing gradients.
This determined that riders suitable to stage races have been trying to reduce their body weight as much as possible, to the detriment of the absolute power necessary to excel in the Classics.
"
- May 20, 2009
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Nothing wrong, you're right, parcours can be improved, but without the unpredictibility factor in place, you get what I described previously and we've all seen time after time. Btw, if you agree with the beloved "riders make the race" you should stated clearly in the OP, it was very important.Eshnar said:
- Apr 7, 2011
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No, you didn't. That's not what I said. This is what I said:Eshnar said:
Sorry you didn't state it. Duh. It seems you want forum members to assume things, or expect they know what you think, as if the readers are always the same. Basically, you blame others for not understanding a hidden message or something. Oh boy...
- Mar 24, 2011
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ok, I'll try to be as clear as possible now.cineteq said:
"Of course riders make the race."
Sentence expressing agreement to your previous statement - Riders make indeed the race.
"Duh."
Expression remarking the obviousness of the last statement - Riders make indeed the race. This is why, in the OP, I did not mention it explicitly in this terms.
"If the same route guaranteed the same racing over and over they'd be robots."
This statement implies that, since riders aren't robots, the same route does not guarantee the same racing. Therefore, riders do make the race.
"I clearly state routes are simply part of the problem."
This sentence remarks that in the OP part I quoted I do claim that routes are part of the problem. In particular, the part I bolded.
"There are many reasons for this"
There a set S of N reasons for the issue, with N >> 1
[...there goes a brief summary of some of the reasons in S...]
"But there's another problem"
Besides the reasons enumerated earlier, there's another reason in S, which is the main topic of the thread: routes.
- Apr 30, 2011
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It's clearly stated in the OP that this thread is about routes and what can be done to improve them, so can the OT complaints about how riders make the race be deleted?
On topic:
I also find it to be a great paradox that while asphalt/surfaces have gotten better, equipment as well, better nutrition and training etc. which should mean that the same route will get 'easier' (less selective) with time (MSR is a case study, where hills have been added to keep the race selective), GT routes have gone in the opposite direction, and instead of getting harder to make them as selective in the past (not more, but just to maintain the same level of selectiveness) they have made them easier, especially shorter. The average stage length (when you take away TTs) has gone down steadily. GTs should be GRAND again and over 4000km in total.
On topic:
I also find it to be a great paradox that while asphalt/surfaces have gotten better, equipment as well, better nutrition and training etc. which should mean that the same route will get 'easier' (less selective) with time (MSR is a case study, where hills have been added to keep the race selective), GT routes have gone in the opposite direction, and instead of getting harder to make them as selective in the past (not more, but just to maintain the same level of selectiveness) they have made them easier, especially shorter. The average stage length (when you take away TTs) has gone down steadily. GTs should be GRAND again and over 4000km in total.
- Aug 3, 2009
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Bavarianriders post of ferraris analysis reconfirms what i thought, if you can hide behind morkov on the flat and rogers/roche/paulinho uphill, you profit from drafting which your epic attacker can't do. Hence he will tire and get caught more often than not.
Question is are you able to tire those modern domestiques by replicating the stage of the 70 like the one eshnar posted?
As a reminder also, when hell broke loose with festina/lance/telekom one of the arguments was that the races are too hard and hence, we reduce to make it possible to race clean. So by upping, we have a marketing problem....
Question is are you able to tire those modern domestiques by replicating the stage of the 70 like the one eshnar posted?
As a reminder also, when hell broke loose with festina/lance/telekom one of the arguments was that the races are too hard and hence, we reduce to make it possible to race clean. So by upping, we have a marketing problem....
- Apr 16, 2009
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Hey, I want my money back!!!Eshnar said:Pra Loup, Tour de France 1975:
Pra Loup, Tour de France 2015:
See the difference? That's what we're talking about here.
That's a big difference.
- Apr 16, 2009
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Started watching cycling in 1983 with the Tour de France. Still waiting for the two big mountain stage combo from that year:
Finishing the stages meant something!!
Even if fitted not sure if I could do it.
Finishing the stages meant something!!
Even if fitted not sure if I could do it.
- Apr 16, 2009
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Absolutely. They don't want the same strong rider beating everyone by half an hour like it used to happen.Netserk said:
Escarabajo said:
Well... they had that same year stage 10, 11 July, Pau – Bagnères-de-Luchon, 201km
Major climbs: Aubisque, Tourmalet, Aspin, Peyresourde
...which looks surprisingly similar to stage 16 of the 2012 Tour.
Any resemblance between them as far as racing is concerned is pure coincidence.
- Mar 24, 2011
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true... unfortunately the Pau-Luchon is just a very poorly designed stage. In the 70's it was more than enough (in those days you could put a climb randomly and it was action guaranteed), but today having the Aspin as a penultimate climb kills any possible action on the Tourmalet. You can read the thread of the 2012 stage to read me having an argument with half the forum about this topic...icefire said:
some things never change. In any case, in the past that stage was considered a carnage. For the riders of today it is a fairly easy task (Aspin is a joke, so you basically have two good climbs - Aubisque and Tourmalet - and just a decent 1st cat. - Peyresourde - so nothing unheard of) . If anything, stages should be designed harder than the past ones, not easier.
I don't think the absence of the loop in Foix 12 would have changed something because the Peregue were too far from finsih anyway. Even harder desgins, such as Le Grand Boarnard 13, Luchon 12, have not added much to the race.Netserk said:
Maybe I am wrong but the last meaningful stage with decent was in 2010 when Contador and Andy destroyed the field on the H.C. Madelaine.
- Feb 29, 2012
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