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When to Retire from the Pro Peloton?

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9000ft said:
Goop topic with a lot of good input. When I look at it I see two different things. The high profile guys who are at the top and the other 90%. For the 90% I'll guess they don't have near the financial options that the top 10% do. While things like a love of the sport, feeding on the competition, etc might be the same throughout the peloton, a lot of guys might just need to keep the steady paycheck. For those guys, since they labor in realitive obscurity anyway a slip in results isn't as big a deal as if an LA, or Sastre' or Zabel, et al start slipping down the standings.

Great follow-up everyone...very interesting thoughts.

One thing I wonder about the former star losing his prowess for winning but still able to add value to a team as a road captain...is it the rider's responsibility to lobby their potential employer to help them see the potential value of an experienced hand, or is it something obvious to all but the most daft team manager?

And didn't Michele Bartoli go a bridge(season) too far?
 
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I have never liked the idea that people should retire just because other people think they should or they risk spoiling their legacy- whatever that means.

Play sport for as long as you can and always play to win. If someone wants to pay for you to participate then good for you!

Only stop when when you don't enjoy it, have other interests that appeal more or risk physical harm by continuing.

Just because other people put you on some pedestal and don't like the idea of you losing is no reason to stop doing what you love if you have the chance.

You may not be as successful as you once were. Who gives. Your life. there are enough people sitting on their backsides doing naff all for you to join them.

Is it wrong to hope for one more victory however unlikely? There are professionals still waiting for their first after years- should they give up and go home?

Actually that's it. No one should compete unless they have a very good chance of winning!

As for changing roles- well that's for managers coaches to decide in my opinion. The players job is to try their best whatever that may be.
 
Rik van Looy had a clear answer for that question. "I'll stop the day I wouldn't even be able to follow the peloton". That's about what he did.

Hinault was the best example of leaving the peloton in his prime. He even wanted to stop after winning a last rainbow jersey in Colorado Springs. A golden retirement he said. That didn't happen but says a lot about his megalomania.

Continuing past your prime is not always egotism. Bartali still raced on his forties because he had a contract and wanted to help his team mates. As has been said earlier some become road captains and advisor for the younger (I remember Ballan saying he got advice from Bortolami on how to handle the cobbles) and it also reflects the rider's love for the sport and acceptance to be beaten. Makes them more humble.

1959, Coppi aged 39 was asked before Paris Roubaix why he kept on racing while he no longer got good results. He answered, "see you in Roubaix" and in Roubaix, he said "You see, I've finished this classic once again." And he also pointed out that the reason he kept on racing was not money because he could earn much more money doing sth else (PR or something) and I certainly can believe him.
 
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Three who should already be retired:

Hincapie

O'Grady

Simoni


All unique, with many miles in their legs. But last season (or before) should have been their last pro ride gig.
 
I agreed with Betini's thoughts on Armstrong's return last year. The Italian champion said "if he's coming back to promote his cancer foundation, well then, I guess that's fine. If he's coming back to win the Tour again, then I don't understand him."

And this goes beyond my intense dislike of Armstrong. Betini's coments have to do with a style, a class, which the Texan just doesn't have. For the classy thing to have done, was to stay retired. Coming back as he did was/is only a circus act.
 

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rhubroma said:
I agreed with Betini's thoughts on Armstrong's return last year. The Italian champion said "if he's coming back to promote his cancer foundation, well then, I guess that's fine. If he's coming back to win the Tour again, then I don't understand him."

And this goes beyond my intense dislike of Armstrong. Betini's coments have to do with a style, a class, which the Texan just doesn't have. For the classy thing to have done, was to stay retired. Coming back as he did was/is only a circus act.


Guy has severe mental problems as opposed to Indurain who went quietly. His talking about his 7 TdF wins and badmouthing the 2008 TdF is like bragging about winning a thrown fight.

What a ***.
 
rhubroma said:
And this goes beyond my intense dislike of Armstrong. Betini's coments have to do with a style, a class, which the Texan just doesn't have. For the classy thing to have done, was to stay retired. Coming back as he did was/is only a circus act.

Just today we witnesses one of the most flamboyants-yet classy retirements ever in cycling by the name of Gilberto Simoni--he knows his best years were behind, yet he got a deal with Lampre to step down from the sport by honoring the race that made him famous-just pay tribute to the people that accompanied you throughout your journey & leave that last impression with grace.

BTW I don't even bother commenting on LA's retirement 1.0 because I believe in 2005 he just left the sport-not because he wasn't competitive anymore, but because all the allegations/investigations/law suites/the french-all together were too much for him to handle, without getting busted.
 
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About McEwen I really don't think it was the crash.
To be honest, it's been about 3 years that I've been saying he doesn't have it.

Good on him for carrying on, though. I say as long as you still like racing professionally and are able to, keep doing it, regardless of how good you are or once were.
 
SirLes said:
I have never liked the idea that people should retire just because other people think they should or they risk spoiling their legacy- whatever that means. Play sport for as long as you can and always play to win. If someone wants to pay for you to participate then good for you!...

I don't want you to misunderstand my intent in starting this thread - it wasn't to mandate when riders should retire or dictate what we think the length of their careers should be - I'm interested in exploring the motivation for certain riders to continue racing beyond the time they're able to produce winning performances, and how they they handle the transformation into a non-champion's role (ie, non-winner's role). It's helpful to look at various cases of riders who seem to have handled this very well (Zabel) vs. those who have clearly ridden for just a paycheck when they could no longer win, and who failed to remake themselves into road captains or mentors - or weren't utilized as such by their teams.

One name we haven't discussed yet is Ullrich. Doped or not (Though it's safe to say "doped") Ullrich ended his career with his last race having been a dominant performance at the 2006 Tour de Suisse. His legacy is still tarnished because of his involvement in Puerto, but at least he didn't face the ignominy of suffering through a final Giro d'Italia where he couldn't even win a KOM, after twice having taken the overall (and probably been capable of a third win, were it not for his cocaine-laced-sweet-tooth). No disrespect to Simoni, since reading his comments given before and during the Giro, he clearly is at peace with himself and makes no pretense about what he planned to achieve during the race (something I added to his wikipedia page). But if you didn't take the time to research the evolution of Simoni's self-awareness, you could be forgiven for thinking he'd made a fool out of himself (something I obviously don't).
 
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I see what you mean. Sorry for getting a bit excited but it's one of my bugbears: The media saying whether someone should retire or not. Either they get forced out because they're no longer good enough or it's their choice.

Motivation for carrying on or returning is interesting. Certainly you can have good and bad reasons in that regard. By bad I mean reasons that are going to make you miserable! Whether it is was the right decision can only be answered by the individual.

Certainly some people adjust better to the simple fact of getting older better than others. If you cant do that you'll never be happy whether you retire or not!
 
Earlier in this thread somebody mentioned Óscar Freire (!). This I find preposterous. Certainly I felt last season that he was reaching an end and he was certainly weak last season. But this year he has proven us all wrong with some great results, all using his typical nous.

Sastre is something of a call; he is into his mid-30s wind-down years and he slowly built up his results to the point of his Tour win, and now he's achieved at the highest level it's a slow wind-down for him now, in all likelihoods. Óscar Pereiro is another; the péloton is just more fun with him in it, but at the same time, Óscar isn't foolish enough to believe he can win another GT; he knows he won one in the flukiest and most bizarre of circumstances, and considering that he did so, and how he's struggled to regain form and ability after his crash in the 2008 Tour, you could forgive him for walking away, he's achieved at the absolute pinnacle of the sport but there's no way he'll ever manage it again.

Watching Savoldelli toiling away for LPR Brakes in 2008 was quite saddening too.

Rasmussen's return has been pretty sad to watch too - the guy has come back with a spectacular bitterness and aggression, but he's done little other than get ill and struggle to get results.
 

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beroepsrenner said:
A particular age has nothing to do with it. Hinaut was only 32 when he retired. Australia's track great, Danny Clark, was still competative in six day racing into his 40s. Its about the "fire in the belly". Even though you may still have the physical ability to keep on going, if you've lost the drive to win at all costs then you may have crossed over your mental peak, especially if you have family and other influences in your life. While it maybe possible for you to go the pace while in this mental stage of your life, to actually play a role at the pointy end of the peloton is another story.
At the age of 31, after retiring from fulltime racing, I was able to compete and finish Australia's Sun Tour while working a fulltime job but not being even able to contest stage finishes made me realise it was time to call it quits and focus on family and other business.
The stress placed on families by pro cycling is often overlooked by the fans of the sport due to the selfish focus and sheer time involved. If you are not moving foward but indeed going backwards in the results then its time to face facts and give some time back to your family.

I think you raise some very good points here. Cycling, like a lot of other sports is quite selfish in terms of family commitments and focus.

Another point I would make is that it is perhaps easier to continue a little past your use by date if you are not at the very top of your sport or specialisation within your sport i.e. LA and Robbie. Someone like Jens, Horner, Hincape and even Ekimov can/could still continue and be successful in their main role as support riders because there is not the personal and public expectation of having to win all the time. Wins are a bonus and they are not seen as failures when they don't win.

I think the 'fire in the belly' is really important at any level of sport but especially so at the top levels where the training commitment is huge. Jens and Horner seem to have this in spades which I am sure is a huge factor in them still being really competitive and valued members of their respective teams.

The mentoring aspect is also something which cannot be underestimated and is often commented on by younger riders. Julian Dean is a prime example. Still plenty fast enough to contribute as a great leadout man in a young mans discipline but a great mentor to the younger guys on the team.
 
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Interesting topic. One of the things that made George Washington a great figure was that he twice walked away from power. The first time in resigning his commission after the Revolutionary War, the second involved stepping down as president. There were no term limits at the time, and many wanted Washington to continue. He was a pretty mediocre general and an even more mediocre president. But his capacity to voluntarily step down makes him more than just an iconic or legendary figure in American history.

Not a sporting analogy, but I think it echoes a number of the key themes in this thread.
 
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Steampunk said:
Interesting topic. One of the things that made George Washington a great figure was that he twice walked away from power. The first time in resigning his commission after the Revolutionary War, the second involved stepping down as president. There were no term limits at the time, and many wanted Washington to continue. He was a pretty mediocre general and an even more mediocre president. But his capacity to voluntarily step down makes him more than just an iconic or legendary figure in American history.

Not a sporting analogy, but I think it echoes a number of the key themes in this thread.

Very good analogy. Perhaps Washington's greatest actions was turning down the requests that he become King
 
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There are also greats who stay too long, but still remain classy and their legend isn't diminished for it. Wayne Gretzky is a pretty good example. He bounced around a bit at the end, but was still the Great One.
 
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SpartacusRox said:
Another point I would make is that it is perhaps easier to continue a little past your use by date if you are not at the very top of your sport or specialisation within your sport i.e. LA and Robbie. Someone like Jens, Horner, Hincape and even Ekimov can/could still continue and be successful in their main role as support riders because there is not the personal and public expectation of having to win all the time.
An important distinction that may have been too subtle in the original question.
 
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9000ft said:
Goop topic with a lot of good input. When I look at it I see two different things. The high profile guys who are at the top and the other 90%. For the 90% I'll guess they don't have near the financial options that the top 10% do. While things like a love of the sport, feeding on the competition, etc might be the same throughout the peloton, a lot of guys might just need to keep the steady paycheck. For those guys, since they labor in realitive obscurity anyway a slip in results isn't as big a deal as if an LA, or Sastre' or Zabel, et al start slipping down the standings.

The 90%ers will have the retirement decision made for them by team management. As soon as they aren't contributing as expected contract renewals will dry up. Not much sentimentality involved by management, I wouldn't expect -- just like any other business/ job.

For the 10% or maybe less, I'm personally of the opinion that they should retire once their performance starts to drop off. While I do agree with others that they can still make a contribution to the team in an experience role, I also think that they will have made a tidy amount of $ out of their career and the best they could do for the sport is to step aside and let another youngster step into top-level cycling.
 
benpounder said:
An important distinction that may have been too subtle in the original question.

Apologies for not being more explicit in making that point. But I'd like to thank everyone who has shared their thoughts thus far...excellent discussion (civil, too - a nice bonus) and I'm sure that you all have more to say.
 
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Everyone thinks they have a George Forman push in them and can come back and take the title. Bernard Hopkins, Roy Jones Jr. Oscar de la Hoya, all great fighters who have fought past their prime. Lennox Lewis was a dominant heavy weight champion who retired after a poor showing (yet victory) over a younger not as talented fighter. I agree with some earlier statements that the older riders should step aside to let the younger yet developed talent come up. LA cant captain radioshack forever with levi and kloden and all his old postal buddies, i would have prefered to see him come back and manage with HoG and show how awesome some of the under 23 talent in the US rides.
 
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cyclopeon said:
The 90%ers will have the retirement decision made for them by team management. As soon as they aren't contributing as expected contract renewals will dry up. Not much sentimentality involved by management, I wouldn't expect -- just like any other business/ job.

For the 10% or maybe less, I'm personally of the opinion that they should retire once their performance starts to drop off. While I do agree with others that they can still make a contribution to the team in an experience role, I also think that they will have made a tidy amount of $ out of their career and the best they could do for the sport is to step aside and let another youngster step into top-level cycling.
for the

Yeah, good points. I wonder when the 90%ers reach the point that they are disposable to a top team, maybe they can still eek a couple more years out of their career and collect a paycheck with a lesser team who can use a pro tour 90%er who can still ride at 85% of his prime and has experience? Everyone is different of course and I'm sure plenty of riders do plan and prepare for life post cycling, but I can see a guy wanting to hang on as long as possible before joining the "real world". Or maybe not. i can also see being sick of the grule and being ready to move on.

Also, while the 10% may have made decent coin but that doesn't necessarily mean they made good financial choices with it. I suppose knowing if you are secure or not would add an extra dimension as to when to retire or not.

A question I have no idea the answer to. Is there any kind of pension plan for pro tour riders? I'd be surprised if there was but just curious.
 
MarkGreen0 said:
It is interesting why LA came back. I think he didn't like the image that he left behind and wanted to do it in a different way without all the arrogance and grudges, and perhaps without that other stuff. I don't think he's been successful at all of those things, though he has been more open than he's ever been before.

Being away from the heat of competition for so long, and being used to answering friendly questions from Hollywood type reporters, it must have made it seem easy to take that friendlier attitude back to the sport. But it only took a bit of reporting on him getting dropped at the Giro and suddenly he was his old self. It's been a lot harder for him than he thought.

If I recall correctly what really spurred Armstrong on the comeback trail was watching the 2008 Tour and seeing riders like Sastre and Vandevelde end up so high in the GC. Riders that , based on the derogatory statements he made at the time, he had little respect for as competition. He must have thought that an 8th Tour win would be a cakewalk once he defamed and manipulated Contador into his required position as mindless domestique.
 
joe_papp said:
Great discussion, guys - thanks for bringing in all the examples from sport outside of cycling.

I agree that age as a numerical value shouldn't have any bearing on when to retire - it should be based on performance or the value you can bring to an organization. I hadn't considered the fact that Zabel took on more of a road captain's role during those last three seasons, and to good effect. That said, I worry :)rolleyes:) about his former teammate, Ale-Jet, who seems to be on the cusp of a rapid decline in potency (or perhaps already in free-fall).

While it was endearing to see him grind-out two stages of the Giro last year, the way he struggled just to finish 3rd in Milan-San Remo in March was disheartening to watch (especially in contrast to an up-and-coming star like Farrar). Petacchi v.2010 is a far cry v.2003 or even the 2005 version with his four Giro stage wins. That positive test for salbutamol in 2007 seemed to derail his career, and there have been few results of note since then.

Can Petacchi pull a Zabel and bank a few more years on the ProTour? Does he even want to? I seem to remember hearing that he was caught up in that tax-evasion scandal, so maybe he won't have a choice and will need to continue racing for the foreseeable future to pay his debts.

Anyone want to guess how many years Vino has left (feel free to consider the risk of a second doping positive :rolleyes:)??? He acquitted himself well in this year's Giro - taking pink was impressive and he was a major animator of the race. He has enough talent that he should be competitive as a one-day rider for at least another season - can the same be said of Sastre with regards to stage racing?

I think Sastre should be proud of his performance considering the limited race miles he had in prior to the Giro and his completing the Giro inspite of the his recent admission of injuries he sustained in his 2 crashes early in the race. I wouldn't pass judement on Sastre until we see how he does in the Vuelta. I anticipate a podium finish.
 
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Angliru said:
I think Sastre should be proud of his performance considering the limited race miles he had in prior to the Giro and his completing the Giro inspite of the his recent admission of injuries he sustained in his 2 crashes early in the race. I wouldn't pass judement on Sastre until we see how he does in the Vuelta. I anticipate a podium finish.

I loved this comment in his cyclingnews interview:

"People say that I should automatically ride the Tour de France because I'm a former winner. But they also say that I should ride the Vuelta Espana. But there's only one Carlos Sastre. I can't ride everything."

All evidence to date to the contrary: Sastre has been a regular high finisher in all three GTs. For a little guy, he's tough. His Zoncolan performance was remarkable—the Eurosport commentators were stunned to see him coming around the final corner. You can complain all you want about his starting at the back, but he seems good for at least on Lazarus climb every year. But, yes: some rest and recovery and prep for the Vuelta, where a podium is still quite realistic.
 
Bartoli? Granfondo's in general and retired pros in them

Not to bang-on about this, but can I get a "thanks, cpt. obvious!" re. Michele Bartoli? If only he'd retired after the 2003 season and not done that utterly f'ing pointless year w/ CSC, which included the morale-sapping video footage of him abandoning the Tour as a minor storyline in the cycling docudrama, "Overcoming."

overcoming.jpg


I mean, just look at this storied palmares! It's almost as if the wikipedia contributor simply forgot to add the 2004 results - except there weren't any:

1993 1st Overall, Semaine Sicilienne 1st Stages 11st Stages 5
1994 1st Brabantse Pijl1st Criterium d'Abruzzo1st GP Pino Cerami1st, Stage 14, Giro d'Italia
1995 1st Overall, Three Days of De Panne 1st Stages 11st Stages 2
1996 1st Giro dell'Emilia1st GP de Fourmies1st GP Industria & Artigianato di Larciano1st Ronde van Vlaanderen1st Stage 1 Giro della Provincia di Reggio Calabria1st Stage 5 Tirreno-Adriatico
1997 Champion UCI Road World Cup1st Liège-Bastogne-Liège1st Rund um den Henninger-Turm1st Trofeo Laigueglia1st Stage 4, Tirreno-Adriatico1st Stage 5, Tour MéditerranéenChampion UCI Road World Cup
1998 Champion UCI Road World Cup1st Giro della Provincia di Reggio Calabria1st Giro della Romagna1st Grosser Preis des Kantons Aargau1st Liège-Bastogne-Liège1st Züri-Metzgete1st Stage 14 Giro d'Italia1st Stage 2 Tour Méditerranéen1st Stage 6 Tour Méditerranéen1st Overall Three Days of De Panne
1999 1st Brabantse Pijl1st La Flèche Wallonne1st Stage 3 Vuelta a Andalucía1st Stage 4 Volta a la Comunitat Valenciana1st Overall Tirreno-Adriatico
2000 1st Italian National Road Race Championship1st Stage 2, Vuelta a Andalucía1st GP Ouest-France
2001 1st Grand Prix de Camaiore1st Omloop "Het Volk"2001
2002 1st Amstel Gold Race1st Giro dell'Emilia1st Giro di Lombardia1st Milano-Torino1st Stage 2 Giro della Provincia di Lucca1st Overall Tour Méditerranéen 1st Stage 4
2003 1st Giro del Lazio1st Giro di Lombardia1st Stage 3, Tour de Wallonie
2004 [...? :confused:]

michelebartoli2.jpg


BTW:
For you Brits out there - and of course for roadies from all over the world who enjoy racing and fast touring/training - Bartoli's Granfondo (which, in 2006, would ironically become the final race of my career) is a beautiful event in Tuscany that features some of the most beautiful, challenging and yet not-specialized-for-mtn-climber terrain that I experienced in Italy.

In fact, if you haven't already, try a Granfondo, especially one like Bartoli's, or also the GF Max Lellinear Saturnia (organized by ex-Cofidis rider Massimiliano Lelli ). GF racing can be so competitive as to include former Tour Podium finishers like Rumsasas (assuming he's not yet banned), while still providing realistic competitive experience for those of us who never earned the privilege to ride a GT.
 
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9000ft said:
for the

Yeah, good points. I wonder when the 90%ers reach the point that they are disposable to a top team, maybe they can still eek a couple more years out of their career and collect a paycheck with a lesser team who can use a pro tour 90%er who can still ride at 85% of his prime and has experience? Everyone is different of course and I'm sure plenty of riders do plan and prepare for life post cycling, but I can see a guy wanting to hang on as long as possible before joining the "real world". Or maybe not. i can also see being sick of the grule and being ready to move on.

Also, while the 10% may have made decent coin but that doesn't necessarily mean they made good financial choices with it. I suppose knowing if you are secure or not would add an extra dimension as to when to retire or not.

A question I have no idea the answer to. Is there any kind of pension plan for pro tour riders? I'd be surprised if there was but just curious.

Unfortunately there are no pensions! Like most professional sports, your carreer is never going to be the duration of your working life so the idea is to make as much as you can with what talent you possess for as long as you can, then for those with their heads screwed on right will use what they've made as a stepping stone to other things. It really depends on how far up the pecking order you were as far as how much surplus income you have to fall back on. I know of guys who were regular winners who now are forced to do stuff like drive trucks for a living. On the other hand others have been in the position to set up successful businesses.