Which muscles in the legs are most usefull to train in gym for riding a bike?

[42x16ss]

For sure. No two bodies are identical, neither are their situations or daily routines. That's what makes training and coaching so fascinating IMO.

Having said that, I can say that from personal experience I benefited more from working with a physio specialising in endurance sports in a Pilates studio than I did working out in the gym doing squats, leg presses, curls, calf raises etc. Most of the people I've suggested pilates/physio to have had similar experiences. Some haven't had benefits at all.

 

[DanielsDad]

Is this the chart?

Sure looks good. Thank you

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

I used advanced search and can't easily find the power chart.

I want to see power for the 1, 5, 15 min periods. Can you link me to a chart?

http://bit.ly/1bFHIsW

I strongly suggest reading the accompanying notes to the power profiling chart. It is one of the more misused tools in the power meter user's quiver.

 

[hiero2]

Being a health/fitness thread, it is probably in the wrong subforum - road/general. But, it seems to be happy here at the moment, so no action taken. If I change my mind, it will simply get moved over to fitness section.

Good thread. Good discussion.

 

[Zorotheslacker]

Being a health/fitness thread, it is probably in the wrong subforum - road/general. ...

I think it is more a time management thread. The question is: Where / how do you get the best results for a fixed amount of time? OK - its really which muscles in the legs..., but a mini thread hijack should be OK. The assumption was the gym should be involved. Challenging that assumption is a very good debate point.

The gym is of no interest (to me, not the OP) if it doesn't make the rider better than, the same amount of time above what they already spent on the bike, just riding.

 

[42x16ss]

Being a health/fitness thread, it is probably in the wrong subforum - road/general. But, it seems to be happy here at the moment, so no action taken. If I change my mind, it will simply get moved over to fitness section.

Good thread. Good discussion.

I like this thread here, the discussion so far is focused, informative and on topic. There is an everpresent risk of Frank/Coapman derailment if it is moved to the Form/Fitness subforum

 

[DanielsDad]

Reverse Lunges

I did reverse lunges (so step back, each leg with weights in hand) yesterday and road today and no doubt I was working the same muscles as I did in the gym. I also did quad stuff. Didn't feel that.

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

While it is consistent urban legend among the local Cat 2 heros that all the Pros do is ride for fitness, and never see the inside of a gym, nothing could be farther from the actual facts. There is not a competitive pro out there who does not put time in the gym in the off season under the guidance of a trainer, and with a specific program and goals.

Sorry to dig up an old thread, but this comment came back to me for some reason today and I recall this statement from Mark Cavendish.

If you want to improve, get on your bike and ride.

That's it. Depending on where I am and whether I'm between races, I'll spend from two to eight hours in the saddle every day. If I don't, I'll feel 'leggy' the next time I get on the bike. Sometimes I'll train with team-mates] I don't lift weights or do plyometrics.[/B]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/mos...s-successful-road-cyclist-Mark-Cavendish.html

Now this neither proves nor disproves the benefit or otherwise of such training. It just demonstrates that not all pros do such gym work. Including one of the most successful road sprinters ever. Go figure.

 

[VeloFidelis]

Now this neither proves nor disproves the benefit or otherwise of such training. It just demonstrates that not all pros do such gym work. Including one of the most successful road sprinters ever. Go figure.

Now, I'm sure you will recognize this quote from a study to which you posted a link. And that's curious, since the study does seem to refute most of your posts on this thread... Go figure. But please... feel free to obfuscate. You appear to be on a mission. Conflating "time in the Gym" and "lifting weights" is the least of it.

Although the short term duration of the studies identified does not allow a definitive answer to the question whether adding strength training to the periodized programmes of highly trained road cyclists is beneficial to performance in the long-term, the results of this review suggest that the inclusion of strength training in their overall training programmes may enhance performance in a range of highly demanding road cycling events. By increasing lower body strength and power, highly trained road cyclists may improve their anaerobic energy production potential during short hill climbs, repeated surges in pace during the race, and in the final sprint. It is therefore suggested that high level road cyclists perform some form of strength training to improve these sport specific performance determinants. This may be even more relevant where cyclists are unable to perform high intensity training on their bike due to inclement weather or where other extrinsic environmental constraints exist.

 

[kielbasa]

Now, I'm sure you will recognize this quote from a study to which you posted a link. And that's curious, since the study does seem to refute most of your posts on this thread... Go figure. But please... feel free to obfuscate. You appear to be on a mission. Conflating "time in the Gym" and "lifting weights" is the least of it.

Although the short term duration of the studies identified does not allow a definitive answer to the question whether adding strength training to the periodized programmes of highly trained road cyclists is beneficial to performance in the long-term, the results of this review suggest that the inclusion of strength training in their overall training programmes may enhance performance in a range of highly demanding road cycling events. By increasing lower body strength and power, highly trained road cyclists may improve their anaerobic energy production potential during short hill climbs, repeated surges in pace during the race, and in the final sprint. It is therefore suggested that high level road cyclists perform some form of strength training to improve these sport specific performance determinants. This may be even more relevant where cyclists are unable to perform high intensity training on their bike due to inclement weather or where other extrinsic environmental constraints exist.

That's funny. Their findings seem to get in the way of their conclusions. Hmm.
I still think cyclists should eat broccoli even though there is no evidence that it makes them faster.

 

[VeloFidelis]

I love broccoli... Duh!... that explains everything!

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

Now, I'm sure you will recognize this quote from a study to which you posted a link. And that's curious, since the study does seem to refute most of your posts on this thread... Go figure. But please... feel free to obfuscate. You appear to be on a mission. Conflating "time in the Gym" and "lifting weights" is the least of it.

It was claimed in this thread that all pros do weight / gym training and by inference everyone else interested in improving their cycling performance probably should too.

I simply pointed to a (fairly high profile) example of a highly successful pro that doesn't do either weight or gym training. Hence the claim that all pros do weights/gym training is false.

But then I don't make any claim with respect to whether this fact has any bearing whatsoever on the efficacy of such training.

As some say, people are entitled to their own opinion but they are not entitled to their own facts. i.e. don't make **** up to support an argument.

 

[VeloFidelis]

It would appear that you are making up an argument to support well chosen facts. You can't refute a scientific paper, one that you've cited here, because you like the methodology, but not the conclusion. In this country that makes you a Republican.

Using a "high profile" genetic mutant, who's physiology represents point zero zero something of the general cycling population, to make a point about what mere mortals should be doing is pretty ridiculous. Hint: He's not like you and me.

And let's be clear... your quote from Cavendish makes no mention of "Gym time", only weight lifting and plyometrics. I can assure you that he has a personal trainer, a program, and team physician to whom he is responsible for supplying regular off season updates on the state of his fitness. Since you seem prone to extrapolation, maybe you should re-read my originlal statement... you know, the one you just quoted?

Originally Posted by VeloFidelis
While it is consistent urban legend among the local Cat 2 heros that all the Pros do is ride for fitness, and never see the inside of a gym, nothing could be farther from the actual facts. There is not a competitive pro out there who does not put time in the gym in the off season under the guidance of a trainer, and with a specific program and goals.

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

Ah, so he goes there to shower?

 

[VeloFidelis]

I would hope so... wait... he's a Manx man... hmmm, that might mean just once a week.

 

[maltiv]

Now this neither proves nor disproves the benefit or otherwise of such training. It just demonstrates that not all pros do such gym work. Including one of the most successful road sprinters ever. Go figure.

Not the best example, considering that Cavendish most recently stated that he has to start lifting weights in order to compete with Kittel.

 

[kielbasa]

Not the best example, considering that Cavendish most recently stated that he has to start lifting weights in order to compete with Kittel.

And IMHO it won't do him any good. He'll probably just have more injuries. After a certain amount of miles, the conversion of some Type II to Type I muscle fibers has taken place. I think that may be why many great sprinters become better all-rounders as years go by, but lose the kick.

Kittel is a brand new shining sprinting machine. From what I've seen out of him, Mark could be his lead out man.

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

Not the best example, considering that Cavendish most recently stated that he has to start lifting weights in order to compete with Kittel.

So why are his results are not as good as they were before? Maybe the weights have slowed him down.

That's rhetorical BTW.

IOW such anecdata are meaningless, yet get thrown about as if they prove or disprove a point beyond what they can actually demonstrate (i.e. very little in the context of such a discussion).

 

[42x16ss]

Not the best example, considering that Cavendish most recently stated that he has to start lifting weights in order to compete with Kittel.

Out of curiousity, how and where does Kittel do his strength training?

Does he do it on the bike, old school (eg: seated hill starts in BIG gears) or in the gym? If he uses the gym, are his workouts based on power and strength, or technique, correction and muscle firing patterns?

Coaching is SO subjective, there are many, many ways to get to your goals, not just one clear cut path. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that's what Alex has been trying to say for most of the thread. Knowing a little bit about his reputation and clientele I know I'm inclined to listen.

FWIW, what type of strength training do you usually recommend based on needs and results Alex? It's a shame Fergie is still arguing with FrankDay in the PM thread, would like to hear his thoughts too.

 

[maltiv]

So why are his results are not as good as they were before? Maybe the weights have slowed him down.

Because he hasn't raced since he began training in the gym. He started lifting this off-season.

 

[VeloFidelis]

Hmmm... Is it just me... or has the silence on this thread become deafening in the last several days? Curious for such a vociferous discussion.

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

Hmmm... Is it just me... or has the silence on this thread become deafening in the last several days? Curious for such a vociferous discussion.

Probably because it's the same dull discussion that gets repeated ad nauseum several times a years across multiple forums ever since the interwebs created the first virtual troll.

There's been nothing particularly new or revelatory that's been revealed in this debate for the last 10 years or more, except for some dodgy conclusions drawn from one or two sets of research data.

People are going to believe what they want to believe, evidence (or lack thereof) be damned.

 

[VeloFidelis]

Ohh... you mean everyone's opinion is valid... how novel.

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

Ohh... you mean everyone's opinion is valid... how novel.

I'd say it's valid that everyone has an opinion.

 

[jsem94]

Out of curiousity, how and where does Kittel do his strength training?

Saw this video a few years ago:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjxNLsqQe8g
He's doing some squatting at the 1:23 mark. Not sue how his training routine looks now, what sort of parameters(sets/reps) they are using. That's more interesting.