Which sport DOES have the toughest, most effective testing program?

[Escarabajo]

Ask Escarabajo who in post number 21 on this thread said:

"Note that unless he had a bad case of diarrhea or dehydration those numbers are not normal. And between you and me I don’t think that an athlete that had a strong case of diarrhea or dehydration (during the rest day) could climb with the best the following few days."

I think that the Lemond 1986 Tour de France story shows that Escarabajo was talking out of his ***.

Thanks,

Kevin

Easy now. I watched the Tour 1986 on TV and I don't remember Lemond having a bad case of diarrhea. If he had it should have been in the flat stages otherwise I can assure you that in he mountain stages I did not see that. Not even a comment about it. I watched those tapes of the mountains many, many times. So I would not be surprise if your sources are wrong.

As for the comment I made, I was only writing what the scientist wrote:

Can also be caused by diarrhea
- Det vi ved fra vores forskning er, at under hårdt arbejde som et Tour de France vil man se et markant fald af disse blodværdier, og det ser vi ikke hos Lance Armstrong, siger han til DR, og peger på, at der kan skyldes blodtransfusioner. - What we know from our research is that the hard work as a Tour de France will see a marked decrease of these blood values, and it seems we are not in Lance Armstrong, he says to DR, and suggests that there may be due blood transfusions.

- Dermed ikke være sagt, at han har fået det, men det kunne være én af forklaringerne, siger han, men slår fast, at en anden årsag kan være diarré eller dehydrering. - This does not mean that he has received it, but it could be one explanation, he says, but insists that another reason may be diarrhea or dehydration.

- Men billedet modstrider det, vi normalt vil se. - But the picture the contradiction that we would normally see. Lance Armstrongs værdier er uændrede fra den første til den sidste prøve, og normalt vil man forvente et fald. Lance Armstrong's values are unchanged from the first to the last sample, and would normally expect a decline. Det fald ser man også i cykelrytterens værdier under Giro d'Italia et par måneder før, men altså ikke under Tour de France. This fall also sees the cyclists values during the Giro d'Italia a few months before, but not so during the Tour de France.

Now again it is highly unlikely that on rest day you have a rider with extreme dehydration when they are suppose to be relaxing and drinking water. It is also unlikely that you would have somebody on the following day climbing with the best in the mountains. That did not happened to Lemond in 1986. Maybe we need to bring Lemond to this forum to prove you wrong.

 

[nslckevin]

Okay, here is a question for anybody who might better understand this. Quoting from Cobbler:

"OK, just entered all of LA's blood values from the past year into a spreadsheet and graphed it. Shaded in blue is the normal range (85-95) for OFF-score. Anyone want to bet that LA got transfused immediately before the TdF? Based on how quickly it dropped after 6/16/09, if he was tested a week earlier he may have been above the 133 cutoff. Seems ironic to me that these values were posted by LA as evidence that he doesn't dope..."

If my memory is correct Armstrong left the Italy shortly after 5/31 and went straight to Aspen. The town of Aspen sits at 8,000' and he was reportedly doing a lot of training up to 10k-12k feet. He was in Aspen at least through a bit past 6/21 as he flew to Nevada City and raced on that day. (And flew back that night.) The Tour started on 7/4 so he left altitude at least a week before that I think.

What does going to altitude do to these scores? Having been to Aspen I can tell you that the air is pretty damn dry. Shouldn't it raise your Hct? Shouldn't it dehydrate you?

To a LAYMAN who has no expertise, it looks like his values went low through the Giro, and higher as he recovered and trained at altitude and then slowly lowered during the Tour. Isn't that what you'd expect?

Of course now "I'm" talking out my ***.

Thanks,

Kevin

 

[nslckevin]

Easy now. I watched the Tour 1986 on TV and I don't remember Lemond having a bad case of diarrhea. If he had it should have been in the flat stages otherwise I can assure you that in he mountain stages I did not see that. Not even a comment about it. I watched those tapes of the mountains many, many times. So I would not be surprise if your sources are wrong.

My source was Greg F***ing Lemond!! Did you not see the quote where he said he had diarrhea in the 1986 Tour?!?! Post number 34 in this thread. Here's the link (AGAIN) to his quote:

http://www.pedalmag.com/index.php?mo...&item_id=15990

I am sure that it was on an "easy day". But it did happen...

Thanks,

Kevin

 

[Race Radio]

You might be right. Or you might be talking out of your ***. I don't know. That's the difference between you and me. I admit that I don't KNOW.

And again, taking Lemond's diarrhea as an example it would be a "crappy" excuse since Lemond WON when he had diarrhea.

It would seem to me that using blood passport type of data is really only going to show something provable if they tested the riders EVERY day, maybe twice a day and also monitored them more or less around the clock so that they could factor in other information that might be useful. But again, I don't KNOW.

Thanks,

Kevin

Um, it is not me that is saying this. Dr Morkeburg, Dr. Belhage, Dr Parisotto, Dr. Ashenden are, I am just repeating their words. Experts who all believe that Armstrong is a doper and that the Biopassport is beatable.

 

[hfer07]

Okay, here is a question for anybody who might better understand this. Quoting from Cobbler:

"OK, just entered all of LA's blood values from the past year into a spreadsheet and graphed it. Shaded in blue is the normal range (85-95) for OFF-score. Anyone want to bet that LA got transfused immediately before the TdF? Based on how quickly it dropped after 6/16/09, if he was tested a week earlier he may have been above the 133 cutoff. Seems ironic to me that these values were posted by LA as evidence that he doesn't dope..."

If my memory is correct Armstrong left the Italy shortly after 5/31 and went straight to Aspen. The town of Aspen sits at 8,000' and he was reportedly doing a lot of training up to 10k-12k feet. He was in Aspen at least through a bit past 6/21 as he flew to Nevada City and raced on that day. (And flew back that night.) The Tour started on 7/4 so he left altitude at least a week before that I think.

What does going to altitude do to these scores? Having been to Aspen I can tell you that the air is pretty damn dry. Shouldn't it raise your Hct? Shouldn't it dehydrate you?

To a LAYMAN who has no expertise, it looks like his values went low through the Giro, and higher as he recovered and trained at altitude and then slowly lowered during the Tour. Isn't that what you'd expect?

Of course now "I'm" talking out my ***.

Thanks,

Kevin

Interesting point of view-but can Cobbler explain to the world why LA ended the TDF with a htc at 43%? I believe that's the real question, rather than how he "elevated" his crit prior to the tour.....

 

[BroDeal]

I certainly can't refute what you've written, but consider this quote from Paul Kimmage.

“Lemond was in trouble. He had a bout of diarrhea. He rode by me with thirty kilometers to go, surrounded by his domestiques bringing him to the front. God the smell was terrible. It was rolling down his legs. I know if it was me I would stop. But then I am not capable of winning the Tour de France. He is, and I suppose that's the difference."
-- Paul Kimmage

This was in 1986 and Lemond went on to win that Tour de France.

My point is that it IS possible to have diarrhea and make it through the Tour just fine. If that is the case, then blood doping is NOT the only possible explanation of the blood values that you cite. Can you really justify taking away somebody's career (anybody in cycling, not just Armstrong) without definitive proof that they are doping?

Forget what you "KNOW", what can you PROVE? If you can't PROVE that blood doping is the only possible explanation, then they (UCI, WADA, etc.) are doing all that they reasonably can.

So what if Lemond was sick for a while on some minor stages? That somehow exonerates Armstrong?

Your reasoning is no different than Tyler Hamilton's. His defense was that there were a few conditions that could cause the test for homologous blood doping to give a false positive. One of the conditions was the infamous "unborn twin" explanation. The "prosecution" then asked the obvious next question. Namely, show that you have one of those conditions. Hamilton could not do it.

In Armstrong's case, show that he had a severe case of diahrrea during the Tour. That would increase hematocrit. But it would do nothing to change the percentage of reticulocytes, so you will have to come up with an explanation for Armstrong's reticulocytes dropping through the floor.

 

[I Watch Cycling In July]

You mean increase hematocrit

 

[L29205]

If my memory is correct Armstrong left the Italy shortly after 5/31 and went straight to Aspen. The town of Aspen sits at 8,000' and he was reportedly doing a lot of training up to 10k-12k feet. He was in Aspen at least through a bit past 6/21 as he flew to Nevada City and raced on that day. (And flew back that night.) The Tour started on 7/4 so he left altitude at least a week before that I think.

What does going to altitude do to these scores? Having been to Aspen I can tell you that the air is pretty damn dry. Shouldn't it raise your Hct? Shouldn't it dehydrate you?

To a LAYMAN who has no expertise, it looks like his values went low through the Giro, and higher as he recovered and trained at altitude and then slowly lowered during the Tour. Isn't that what you'd expect?

Of course now "I'm" talking out my ***.

Thanks,

Kevin

Not a bad thesis other than a couple of points.

Dehydration in a pro endurance athlete, after 25 years of experience going back to LA's first swimming experiences. I find the Sh()t's a better argument but it is still pretty easy to rehydrate after a bit Somalia or related. Even after living in a dry environment for a couple of years, you get use to it and adjust your fluid intake.

Next most of the people who believe in high altitude performance again believe in the live high (not the MTB crowd type of high) and train low. Training at 10,000 feet does not get you the blood production of living at 10,000 feet. It is the continual exposure to low oxygen that gets more red blood cell production not the training at 12,000 feet. Did LA's house in Aspen help maybe, I will quote you and say I don't know.

Simply put I believe the numbers posted, it is inconceivable that LA was dehydrated enough to explain the numbers over the time frame in question. Also high altitude needs to be maintained in order to get the natural EPO hit.

BTW, thank you for providing solid links to your support your side of the story.

Side note: my mother is an O- blood donor, and a great athlete in her own right. She held the course record for masters in Ironman OZ for a couple of years. Her Hematocrits at her last donation 49% at 64 years old and she donates every time she can (and is well hydrated and as far as I know her Digestive health is okay). Odd things happen.

 

[BroDeal]

You mean increase hematocrit

Doh! How did I make that mistake. Changed it.

 

[I Watch Cycling In July]

The effectiveness of the bio-passport could well be limited by the lack of bulletproof scientific information.

Perhaps the problem is that there are too many individuals with 'interesting' blood values. If only one or two individuals were dodgy, they could be sanctioned, as there would be a high level of confidence that their values were different. But what if 20% of riders blood values are dodgy?

The argument "well your honor, we see a lot of blood values like these, but we're sure they're all doing it" would probably not lead to anyone getting sanctioned. So the authorities have to pick off the suspects one by one, using traditional testing methods, until the selectivity of the passport data (and associated statistical analysis) is proven....then they can start proceedings based on passport blood data alone.

I don't insist on this scenario, it's just a random idea I've been pondering. Anyone else think it might be part of the problem?

 

[Hugh Januss]

Not a bad thesis other than a couple of points.

His "thesis" still in no way explains the large drop in retculocytes (new or baby red blood cells) that went right along with the rise in hematocrit. The only way for that to happen (as has been explained countless times before) is for a fresh population of mature (older) red blood cells to be introduced into the blood. Like by infusion of stored blood, like only by infusion of stored blood. Unless some alien got into his veins and began killing off all the new RBC and replacing them with fresh mature ones.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Looks like I should have had more faith in my memory. It WAS in the Tour and it WAS in 1986 when he won!

http://www.pedalmag.com/index.php?module=Section&action=viewdetail&item_id=15990

"I've seen many interviews with you conversing French and you're very competent in the language.
GL: Well, I never really did learn the polite version of the language. Years later, being interviewed by French TV, I would make grammar mistakes and sound really rough. For example, the first year I won the Tour de France, I had diarrhea on one stage, and when they interviewed me afterwards I said; "I had the ****s" on TV. That night, a French professor drove something like six hours and sat in front of my house waiting for me to get home. When I finally did, he told me I should be using the polite grammar forms and to never swear on TV - but I never really changed much!"

BTW, it takes a lot of balls to correct somebody and be wrong yourself... I mean, if you're going to tell somebody in a public forum that they are wrong, you'd think you'd want to make sure that you actually knew what the hell you were talking about. But maybe that's just me...

Kevin

Wow - take a chill pill!

I pointed out the inaccuracy of your earlier post because it WAS WRONG - and still is! You quoted from Paul Kimmages book 'A Rough Ride'- and the incident Kimmage refers to was in 1989 Giro -not the 86 Tour.

 

[nslckevin]

Wow - take a chill pill!

I pointed out the inaccuracy of your earlier post because it WAS WRONG - and still is! You quoted from Paul Kimmages book 'A Rough Ride'- and the incident Kimmage refers to was in 1989 Giro -not the 86 Tour.

So you're saying that Lemond had diarrhea running out of his shorts in TWO different grand tours in his career?

Kevin

 

[Race Radio]

So you're saying that Lemond had diarrhea running out of his shorts in TWO different grand tours in his career?

Kevin

and Jan had to poop in a hat one year, he lost 3 minutes on that stage.

Wonder why it seems to only help Armstrong and Schumacher?

 

[Escarabajo]

...
If my memory is correct Armstrong left the Italy shortly after 5/31 and went straight to Aspen. The town of Aspen sits at 8,000' and he was reportedly doing a lot of training up to 10k-12k feet. He was in Aspen at least through a bit past 6/21 as he flew to Nevada City and raced on that day. (And flew back that night.) The Tour started on 7/4 so he left altitude at least a week before that I think.

What does going to altitude do to these scores? Having been to Aspen I can tell you that the air is pretty damn dry. Shouldn't it raise your Hct? Shouldn't it dehydrate you?

...
Of course now "I'm" talking out my ***.

Thanks,

Kevin

Your HCT will increase but so will the Retics, because that's your body naturally reacting to change in altitude. In the case of Armstrong the Retics go down all through July. And they stay down, giving the indication that he had an inflow of mature red blood cells into his body. At that point your body naturally signals that the Retics production should go down.

Here is a link to the science of doping:
http://siab.org.au/what-is-blood-passport/passport-explanation.php

The other point the scientist pointed out is that as the Tour progressed he kept the hct% flat giving an indication that his body was receiving some help from the outside unless he kept the Diarrhea throughout the tour which is highly unlikely. This still doesn't explain why his Retics dropped during the month of July.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

So you're saying that Lemond had diarrhea running out of his shorts in TWO different grand tours in his career?

Kevin

I am saying you were wrong with the original quote you used from Kimmages book Rough Ride - it was the 89 Giro.

Actually if I recall correctly Lemond had a dose of the trots early in the 1990 Tour also.
That would make it 3 times.

 

[L29205]

His "thesis" still in no way explains the large drop in retculocytes (new or baby red blood cells) that went right along with the rise in hematocrit. The only way for that to happen (as has been explained countless times before) is for a fresh population of mature (older) red blood cells to be introduced into the blood. Like by infusion of stored blood, like only by infusion of stored blood. Unless some alien got into his veins and began killing off all the new RBC and replacing them with fresh mature ones.

I agree, and I did not address the retculocytes in my response. I was simply going back and addressing the flaws in the original idea of hydration issues and the ability to gain hematocrits base on high altitude training.

There are many different holes in the overall thesis. I believe in addressing them in a simple individual way while trying to engage in a conversation/debate.

 

[Anonymous]

A Mountain Goat Exclusive: Dirty Rotten Jacked Up Tennis Players

Jim Courier speaking of Andy Murray's muscular physique at the Australian Open:

"This guy's been jacked for a couple of years"



Thought a joke would be good to cheer up the forum

Anyone vote tennis as the most effective testing program?

 

[BroDeal]

Jim Courier speaking of Andy Murray's muscular physique at the Australian Open:

"This guy's been jacked for a couple of years"



Thought a joke would be good to cheer up the forum

Anyone vote tennis as the most effective testing program?

Do they even have a testing program? Aside from making sure that players are occasionally tested for recreational drugs, I mean. Take all the steroids you want, but make sure you don't snort a line of coke while partying.