Who are the best placed clean riders?

[hrotha]

Personally, I'll wait for something a bit more solid than "he rode better than usual" or "he rode worse than usual" or "I kinda like him" before passing judgment.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

These guys I haven't noticed enough to judge them:

12 Ruben Plaza Molina (Spa) Caisse d'Epargne 0:14:29

Plaza has had a great Tour, coming in with Armstrong on Col de la Madeleine, top 10 to Les Rousses, and constantly at the back of the front group throughout.

The problem with judging whether or not Plaza is clean is that, firstly, his history is a big black mark that is difficult to ignore (Kelme, Comunidad Valenciana, Benfica, Liberty Seguros Continental - let's just say that Kelme and Portuguese Continental teams are not a great way to convince anybody you're clean). The second problem is that, despite amassing a pretty good palmarès over a decent length career, this is only his second Grand Tour (his first being the 2005 Vuelta). In his first, he finished 5th overall and won a long ITT at record speed (56.22km/h wind-assisted). I didn't see anything quite as preposterous in this one, but that doesn't mean he's clean. Far from it.

The weird thing, really, is that with every passing day without him testing positive, I like him more, because I am so expectant that he'll let me down and go + that it's actually endearing when he doesn't.

 

[Pedaaldanser]

He came 7th in the 2008 giro. Soon afterwards, Ricco (who finished second) and Sella (who finished 6th) got done for CERA. Pellizotti has since been done for bio-passport irregularities and taking these three riders out makes him fourth, being beaten by Contador, Bruseghin and Menchov. It would also have made him best young rider. Last year, he rode the tour but fell off at the start of the team time trial and lost a lot of time as they didnt wait. After that he went for breakaways and working in those makes you more tired for the times when you arent in breaks.

He also finished high up in the Dauphine this year.

Not saying he isnt on drugs but his performance was maybe not that much of a surprise, especially considering the poor performance of some of the top contenders.

5th in the Tour is a lot better than 7th in the Giro if you compare the strength of the competitors.

This time he beat Gesink, Rodriguez, Kreuziger, LLS, Leipheimer, Kloden, Vino (Sastre, Armstrong, Wiggins, Evans & Basso too, but they are way down)

2 years ago in the Giro he beat Di Luca, Pozzovivo and Simoni (Nibali, Rodriguez and Leipheimer too but they were way down).

Granted, it could be natural progression, but I was (am) surprised nonetheless.

 

[M Sport]

I've been riding or following cycling for 20+ years and am naturally suspicious of most riders after being let down so many times.

If I was pressured to highlight the most suspicious performance this year I would say Van den Broeck. Just my opinion.

 

[Cloxxki]

I know personally some riders who've quit racing when all of a sudden their competition made huge leaps forward, for instance after switching teams. So if Greg were to say this was afactor, I say plausible.

Where some didn't dare to dope as much, at least during the Tour (Lance and Levi come to mind, fading as they did), it's logical other move up a spot. What counts more than before, is talent. Perhaps Vandebroecke is just way talented. I have my doubts.

Totally inadmissible, but for me a more reliable method than any to distinguish dopers from clean riders, is how I like them as a personality. Evil riders have fewer reasons to ride clean. Name some riders you really disliked as a person when they had a clean record, and how they've faired as "never tested positive".
I was a fan boy, but never really "liked" Lance. Just his divine mystic. Riders I've liked over the years, rarely got involved in great controversies. Am I psychic? Some friends think that sometimes, I just don't subscibe to the paranormal much. I know when I like someone, and when I don't. Seems to work out well for me, fewer missed opportunities, few disapointments.

Man, I hated Ricco. What a relief when he was caught.
Landis was one of my biggest mistakes, but he's working hard to redeem himself, so perhaps my feeling was good all the time, just with a different perspective: they ALL doped, and the weak and evil ones are supporting the omerta.

I'm sure you guys have similar experiences.

 

[Ferminal]

After looking at the Tour on tv and observing the riders, this is my expert judgement about the top 20 riders:

I think these are not doping this tour:

1 Alberto Contador Velasco (Spa) Astana 89:16:27
3 Denis Menchov (Rus) Rabobank 0:02:01
4 Samuel Sánchez Gonzalez (Spa) Euskaltel - Euskadi 0:03:40
6 Robert Gesink (Ned) Rabobank 0:09:31
8 Joaquin Rodriguez (Spa) Team Katusha 0:11:37
9 Roman Kreuziger (Cze) Liquigas-Doimo 0:11:54
11 Luis León Sánchez Gil (Spa) Caisse d'Epargne 0:14:21
16 Alexander Vinokourov (Kaz) Astana 0:17:46
20 Carlos Sastre (Spa) Cervelo Test Team 0:26:37

These guys I haven't noticed enough to judge them:

12 Ruben Plaza Molina (Spa) Caisse d'Epargne 0:14:29
15 Nicolas Roche (Irl) AG2R La Mondiale 0:16:59
17 Thomas Löfkvist (Swe) Sky Professional Cycling Team 0:20:46
18 Kevin De Weert (Bel) Quick Step 0:21:54

That leaves these foul dopers:
2 Andy Schleck (Lux) Team Saxo Bank 0:00:39 - Rode better than ever before, even in the TT, while he sucked in Switzerland. I think he's pumped full with anything Saxo thought was safe enough, because they had a good chance to beat Contador this year. He might even have borrowed a battery!
5 Jurgen Van Den Broeck (Bel) Omega Pharma-Lotto 0:06:54 - Never rode this well before compared to the rest.. you could say the others are less doped but I rather think he's more doped.
7 Ryder Hesjedal (Can) Garmin - Transitions 0:10:15 - Not sure about this one, I saw him look reeaaallly bad on the Tourmalet climb and still he finished at the front... being on Garmin doesn't improve his credibility.
10 Christopher Horner (USA) Team Radioshack 0:12:02 - a team from JB can never be truly clean, the man doesn't know any better
13 Levi Leipheimer (USA) Team Radioshack 0:14:40 - a team from JB can never be truly clean, the man doesn't know any better
14 Andreas Klöden (Ger) Team Radioshack 0:16:36 - a team from JB can never be truly clean, the man doesn't know any better
19 John Gadret (Fra) AG2R La Mondiale 0:24:04 - this man is evil, so he must dope (he also rode really strong at the Giro)

How can the winner and 3rd place compete with others giving themselves a +10-20% advantage via doping?

It's virtually impossible that someone else in the top5 is doping and Contador isn't.

 

[skidmark]

1 Alberto Contador Velasco (Spa) Astana 89:16:27
2 Andy Schleck (Lux) Team Saxo Bank 0:00:39
3 Denis Menchov (Rus) Rabobank 0:02:01
4 Samuel Sánchez Gonzalez (Spa) Euskaltel - Euskadi 0:03:40
5 Jurgen Van Den Broeck (Bel) Omega Pharma-Lotto 0:06:54
6 Robert Gesink (Ned) Rabobank 0:09:31
7 Ryder Hesjedal (Can) Garmin - Transitions 0:10:15
8 Joaquin Rodriguez (Spa) Team Katusha 0:11:37
9 Roman Kreuziger (Cze) Liquigas-Doimo 0:11:54
10 Christopher Horner (USA) Team Radioshack 0:12:02
11 Luis León Sánchez Gil (Spa) Caisse d'Epargne 0:14:21
12 Ruben Plaza Molina (Spa) Caisse d'Epargne 0:14:29
13 Levi Leipheimer (USA) Team Radioshack 0:14:40
14 Andreas Klöden (Ger) Team Radioshack 0:16:36
15 Nicolas Roche (Irl) AG2R La Mondiale 0:16:59
16 Alexander Vinokourov (Kaz) Astana 0:17:46
17 Thomas Löfkvist (Swe) Sky Professional Cycling Team 0:20:46
18 Kevin De Weert (Bel) Quick Step 0:21:54
19 John Gadret (Fra) AG2R La Mondiale 0:24:04
20 Carlos Sastre (Spa) Cervelo Test Team 0:26:37
21 Daniel Moreno Fernandez (Spa) Omega Pharma-Lotto 0:29:38
22 Christophe Moreau (Fra) Caisse d'Epargne 0:34:01
23 Lance Armstrong (USA) Team Radioshack 0:39:20
24 Bradley Wiggins (GBr) Sky Professional Cycling Team 0:39:24
25 Sandy Casar (Fra) Française des Jeux 0:45:52
26 Cadel Evans (Aus) BMC Racing Team 0:50:27
27 Julien El Farès (Fra) Cofidis, Le Credit en Ligne 0:53:22
28 Christophe Riblon (Fra) AG2R La Mondiale 0:55:13
29 Damiano Cunego (Ita) Lampre-Farnese Vini 0:56:53
30 Johan Van Summeren (Bel) Garmin - Transitions 0:58:53

And 22 positive tests later (including 3 of his teammates), he'll claim his landmark 8th Tour.

 

[ricara]

yeah right. that's not the way i remember it. andy didn't have the fire and lemond went kicking and screaming.

Andy is a close personal friend of mine and we had several talks about whether he should retire. I argued against it, but he knew about EPO and I didn't. He quit, and looking back I can't blame him one bit.

I only met Greg once (and never raced against him), but you can go see a bunch of interviews on YouTube (some historical, some contemporaneous), where it is pretty clear why he quit.

 

[ricara]

After looking at the Tour on tv and observing the riders, this is my expert judgement about the top 20 riders:

I think these are not doping this tour:

1 Alberto Contador Velasco (Spa) Astana 89:16:27

Are you joking?

In my "expert judgment" the entire Astana team was doped more than any other team, with the possible exception of SaxoBank. Every day his domestiques were riding stronger than anybody outside of the top 3 on GC.

 

[Benotti69]

It is impossible to call. You have to go by what the 'clean' cyclists go by. The competition is clean unless proven otherwise. They have introduced retrospective testing so we may find out in 2,3 or 4 years time who was clean and who was not....

but i'll still throw my opinion in...

Levi was clean, because LA hates him and probably gave him cherry juice instead

Hesjedal. Yep.

Sastre. Yep.

Evans. Yep.

Cunego. Yep.

that's it the rest i suspect of PEDs. Nicholas Roche is highly connected to the UCI through his agent Darach McQuaid, so that stinks and his father was a PEDer so why would son not be????? Roche senior is very quiet about being anti-doping.

 

[luckyboy]

1 Alberto Contador Velasco (Spa) Astana 89:16:27
2 Andy Schleck (Lux) Team Saxo Bank 0:00:39
3 Denis Menchov (Rus) Rabobank 0:02:01
4 Samuel Sánchez Gonzalez (Spa) Euskaltel - Euskadi 0:03:40
5 Jurgen Van Den Broeck (Bel) Omega Pharma-Lotto 0:06:54
6 Robert Gesink (Ned) Rabobank 0:09:31
7 Ryder Hesjedal (Can) Garmin - Transitions 0:10:15
8 Joaquin Rodriguez (Spa) Team Katusha 0:11:37
9 Roman Kreuziger (Cze) Liquigas-Doimo 0:11:54
10 Christopher Horner (USA) Team Radioshack 0:12:02
11 Luis León Sánchez Gil (Spa) Caisse d'Epargne 0:14:21
12 Ruben Plaza Molina (Spa) Caisse d'Epargne 0:14:29
13 Levi Leipheimer (USA) Team Radioshack 0:14:40
14 Andreas Klöden (Ger) Team Radioshack 0:16:36
15 Nicolas Roche (Irl) AG2R La Mondiale 0:16:59
16 Alexander Vinokourov (Kaz) Astana 0:17:46
17 Thomas Löfkvist (Swe) Sky Professional Cycling Team 0:20:46
18 Kevin De Weert (Bel) Quick Step 0:21:54
19 John Gadret (Fra) AG2R La Mondiale 0:24:04
20 Carlos Sastre (Spa) Cervelo Test Team 0:26:37

I'd pretty much go with that. I'm sure I remember Isso or RaceRadio saying they knew something about Gadret though.

I find this to be an encouraging trend overall. Quite a few important teams seem to be riding clean:

Garmin
Cervelo
Ag2R
Sky
Quick Step

I would not be convinced that those are riding clean tbh. Bit iffy about QS with Lefevere, but I's hope that Chavanel, De Weert, Pineau etc. are clean. I'd say FdJ & Bbox are the cleanest teams. Hard to say about Garmin and Sky..

 

[Hugh Januss]

Are you joking?

In my "expert judgment" the entire Astana team was doped more than any other team, with the possible exception of SaxoBank. Every day his domestiques were riding stronger than anybody outside of the top 3 on GC.

I disagree, not saying they were doped less, just don't think the work they did showed they were doped more. I think they were just totally focused on the job of supporting Contador, other than Vino who they kept close to the top of the overall for tactical reasons everyone else on the team totally soft pedaled every single day once their job was done. For all the legs that Navarro and Tiralongo broke in the mountains they were both barely in the top 55 and about 1 and 3/4 hours down. You can ride pretty hard on the front for a while if you are careful to spend the rest of the race resting.

 

[turtlesoup]

I love ryder and despise CVV. All these garmin climbers with sudden changes of form to make them contenders is certainly suspicious, granted the tour has been easier in recent years but seeing wiggo go off this year im highly suspicious of garmin.

I agree that the Shack was probably the cleanest team AT the tour (maybe not in the lead up) lance and bruyneel cannot afford anyone to get caught again this year.

 

[steevo]

I agree with your bolded (clean) riders, and added a couple that might raise a brow but consider this:

Even when Ryder, who by all accounts and the progress of his career so far, could be a future GC contender, the other two have been there more than once. They were probably under as much scrutiny on the run up and through this Tour as any other riders ever.

Given this scrutiny, and the obvious napalmic reaction that would occur if either of them came pos, I find it about the surest thing that those two prepped and rode this Tour clorox clean.

So you think that Levi would cheat to win US amateur crit nationals but not
to place at the TDF? Ok.

 

[nslckevin]

So you think that Levi would cheat to win US amateur crit nationals but not
to place at the TDF? Ok.

Levi got popped for taking an allergy/cold medicine with something like pseudoephedrine in it. Against the rules? Absolutely. Deserved to be punished for it? Absolutely, he should know better. Doping/Cheating??? I think that is kind of a stretch.

Nyquil will make you test positive. Is it "cheating/doping" if you took Nyquil because you have a cold during a stage race? And before you say, that is a stretch, that in fact did happen to a woman at the Coors Classic in the '80s. Sure, riders should know better, but... Come on.

Similarly, consider a centerline violation in a sprint. Two riders.

Rider 1, gets pushed across the line when somebody hooks him. He does not advance position, but he did cross the center line. He gets relegated or DQ'd by the ref. A legit call by the ref even though it wasn't his fault.

Rider 2, purposely crosses the center line to pass riders in the sprint. He get's DQ'd or relgated also.

Both broke the rules, but which one "cheated"? i.e. tried to get unfair advantage by breaking the rules.

And finally, sure, it is possible that Levi was taking some sort of upper that tests out the same as a cold medicine, but the three month suspension doesn't indicate it.

 

[SpartacusRox]

Never heard of Stephen Swart?

Heard of him and raced against him. He's actually a builder now. His brother Jack was a beast on a bike.

 

[Ferminal]

I'd pretty much go with that. I'm sure I remember Isso or RaceRadio saying they knew something about Gadret though.




I would not be convinced that those are riding clean tbh. Bit iffy about QS with Lefevere, but I's hope that Chavanel, De Weert, Pineau etc. are clean. I'd say FdJ & Bbox are the cleanest teams. Hard to say about Garmin and Sky..

Gadret is tough to measure in this case, if he didn't go hard at the Giro he probably would've finished above Roche.

 

[nvpacchi]

Didn't Gadret also compete in the entire cyclocross season this past fall/winter? He has done an awful lot of riding the last 9 months at a very competitive level.

If he is not cooked after this TDF, and pulls off some nice result coming up, I will start wondering.