Who's worse, Adam Lanza or Andreas Lubitz?

[Merckx index]

I'm assuming this plane crash really was the result of a suicide. That conclusion isn't 100% certain as I post this, and maybe never will be, but it seems by far the most likely explanation.

The nearly 150 people who died in the crash make Lubitz a bigger mass murderer than Lanza (the Sandy Hook shooter) or any of the others who have gone on a killing rampage in schools and other public places. Lubitz, if he really did do this intentionally, must have had mental problems, but so did the other mass killers. While the primary purpose of the crash may have been suicide, he couldn't have been so far gone that he didn't realize he was killing all the others. And it's thought that the crash was pre-meditated, that he believed there would be an opportunity to lock the pilot out of the cockpit at some point during the flight.

But even if it wasn't, there had to have been some thought to this beforehand. The desire to commit suicide is not something that comes up suddenly and overwhelms an individual. It develops over a long period of time, may come and go, but I doubt anyone commits suicide without ever having contemplated it before, except under exceptionally traumatic circumstances (e.g., people who have accidentally killed someone with a gun have then taken their own lives).

Lanza and others using guns were motivated by hate, and their primary purpose was not killing themselves--though they surely expected it would likely come to that--but others. But if Lubitz had no hate towards others, he at the least had a disregard that it seems to me comes to nearly the same level. There are, after all, many ways to commit suicide without killing others.

If someone wants to argue that Lubitz was the unfortunate victim of a deranged mind, fine, but then the same view must be applied to the mass killers.

 

[Dazed and Confused]

The continued process of driving down cost in the airline industry will likely create more tragedy in the future.

 

[Scott SoCal]

It's an interesting question. I'm not buying the idea Lanza's act was motivated by hate any more or less than Lubitz. It sure looks like, if not flat out crazy, both sure had major mental issues.

I'm just wondering when we are supposed to start blaming the plane.

 

[Arnout]

Re:

The continued process of driving down cost in the airline industry will likely create more tragedy in the future.

The opposite trend (modern-day air travel still getting safer than ever before) hasn't even started to reverse yet.

Undoubtedly there will be future tragedies, some even avoidable (in hindsight or before). That's part of modern life. On the other hand, it was never safer to travel over long distances than next year.

 

[Dazed and Confused]

Re: Re:

The continued process of driving down cost in the airline industry will likely create more tragedy in the future.

The opposite trend (modern-day air travel still getting safer than ever before) hasn't even started to reverse yet.

Undoubtedly there will be future tragedies, some even avoidable (in hindsight or before). That's part of modern life. On the other hand, it was never safer to travel over long distances than next year.

The airline industry will get low quality people in the cockpit when salaries are reduced, its unavoidable. Then we have the shortcuts in maintenance. Its a slow process and too much relies on the human factor at this point.

Anyway flying is becoming the poor man choice. And who ever cared about those.

 

[Arnout]

Re: Re:

The continued process of driving down cost in the airline industry will likely create more tragedy in the future.

The opposite trend (modern-day air travel still getting safer than ever before) hasn't even started to reverse yet.

Undoubtedly there will be future tragedies, some even avoidable (in hindsight or before). That's part of modern life. On the other hand, it was never safer to travel over long distances than next year.

The airline industry will get low quality people in the cockpit when salaries are reduced, its unavoidable. Then we have the shortcuts in maintenance. Its a slow process and too much relies on the human factor at this point.

Anyway flying is becoming the poor man choice. And who ever cared about those.

As long as all the facts are completely at odds with your statements there's no reason for me to have a conversation about this.

 

[TheGreenMonkey]

The latest news I just heard seems to indicate that Lubitz might have done this because he had become aware that his mental health problems would stop him becoming a captain instead of just a co-pilot. He got to be captain for the last eight minutes of his life.

 

[VeloCity]

Re:

I'm just wondering when we are supposed to start blaming the plane.

Steps will be taken to try and prevent it from happening again - new regulations on pilots, changing the cabin door system, greater screening of pilots before they're allowed to fly, etc. Just like how new regulations on gun types and magazine ranges and so forth were implemented after Sandy Hook to try and prevent it from ever happ...oh no, wait, nothing changed after Sandy Hook, cause when it comes to cons and guns, pilots rights supercede that of passengers.

 

[Scott SoCal]

Re: Re:

I'm just wondering when we are supposed to start blaming the plane.

Steps will be taken to try and prevent it from happening again - new regulations on pilots, changing the cabin door system, greater screening of pilots before they're allowed to fly, etc. Just like how new regulations on gun types and magazine ranges and so forth were implemented after Sandy Hook to try and prevent it from ever happ...oh no, wait, nothing changed after Sandy Hook, cause when it comes to cons and guns, pilots rights supercede that of passengers.

The more we find out about Lubitz the more it appears he was crazier than batman. Kinda like Lanza.

But it's the plane's fault, clearly.

I'm guessing that at the root of this disaster we will find political correctness run amok. His employer either knew or didn't know about this dudes mental health. If known, they likely could not keep him out of the cockpit. If unknown then feel free to blame PCism for that as well.

pilots rights supercede that of passengers.

Prolly more like Union protections and HIPPA-like rules super ceding passengers right to exhale Co2.

 

[Amsterhammer]

Re: Re:

I'm just wondering when we are supposed to start blaming the plane.

Steps will be taken to try and prevent it from happening again - new regulations on pilots, changing the cabin door system, greater screening of pilots before they're allowed to fly, etc. Just like how new regulations on gun types and magazine ranges and so forth were implemented after Sandy Hook to try and prevent it from ever happ...oh no, wait, nothing changed after Sandy Hook, cause when it comes to cons and guns, pilots rights supercede that of passengers.

The more we find out about Lubitz the more it appears he was crazier than batman. Kinda like Lanza.

But it's the plane's fault, clearly.

I'm guessing that at the root of this disaster we will find political correctness run amok. His employer either knew or didn't know about this dudes mental health. If known, they likely could not keep him out of the cockpit. If unknown then feel free to blame PCism for that as well.

pilots rights supercede that of passengers.

Prolly more like Union protections and HIPPA-like rules super ceding passengers right to exhale Co2.

This kind of gross stupidity really should be beneath you, but sadly isn't.

If he didn't have a plane at his disposal, he could never have killed so many in one attempt. If you don't have a semi-automatic with lots of bullets at your disposal,....

Meanwhile, all major Euro airlines have instituted a 'two in the cockpit at all times' routine.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Re: Re:

Just like how new regulations on gun types and magazine ranges and so forth were implemented after Sandy Hook to try and prevent it from ever happ...oh no, wait, nothing changed after Sandy Hook...

Not true. You obviously don't live in Connecticut and are not aware of the what has been both discussed and implemented here since that tragedy.

But you are correct on flying rules itself. It is likely that rules will be changed to where no one can be in the cockpit alone. This is already the case in the US. When there are only two pilots on board, and one needs to use the restroom, a flight attendant must be present in the cockpit.

One thing Merckx didn't cover in his post though is that there is something called "deadheading" that all pilots do. This is where they fly pretty much empty planes from one destination to another. It doesn't happen every day, but it's more common than you may realize. Two deadheading pilots actually crashed a regional jet a few years ago in Missouri, pushing the jet beyond it's limits out of boredom essentially. A fascinating story, actually. http://www.popularmechanics.com/flight/a357/2156137/

I mention this because if Lubitz had been more calculating, and wanted to just go out in a blaze, perhaps punishing the company, and in essentially painless way, he likely could have found a deadheading plane within days to pilot, and killed himself and another pilot, not 150 innocent people and many children, who were likely not even in his mind at all.

I can't for a moment think pay had anything to do with this, while it's definitely true that pilot's wages have dropped and dropped some more over the last 20 years. Sully Sullenberg even mentioned this in front of Congress talking about it.

 

[frenchfry]

As spectacular and horrible as this crash was, I can't help thinking that on average 150 people are killed in France by cars every 18 days in France and this happens with virtually no public reaction or outrage. I would guess that at least 150 are killed each year in France alone by drivers texting and yet there is nothing done to change this behaviour, it is considered normal. Not to mention the thousands of injured who fill hospitals and rehab centers as a result of car accidents.

Just a bit of perspective.

 

[Scott SoCal]

Re: Re:

I'm just wondering when we are supposed to start blaming the plane.

Steps will be taken to try and prevent it from happening again - new regulations on pilots, changing the cabin door system, greater screening of pilots before they're allowed to fly, etc. Just like how new regulations on gun types and magazine ranges and so forth were implemented after Sandy Hook to try and prevent it from ever happ...oh no, wait, nothing changed after Sandy Hook, cause when it comes to cons and guns, pilots rights supercede that of passengers.

The more we find out about Lubitz the more it appears he was crazier than batman. Kinda like Lanza.

But it's the plane's fault, clearly.

I'm guessing that at the root of this disaster we will find political correctness run amok. His employer either knew or didn't know about this dudes mental health. If known, they likely could not keep him out of the cockpit. If unknown then feel free to blame PCism for that as well.

pilots rights supercede that of passengers.

Prolly more like Union protections and HIPPA-like rules super ceding passengers right to exhale Co2.

This kind of gross stupidity really should be beneath you, but sadly isn't.

If he didn't have a plane at his disposal, he could never have killed so many in one attempt

. If you don't have a semi-automatic with lots of bullets at your disposal,....

Meanwhile, all major Euro airlines have instituted a 'two in the cockpit at all times' routine.

Exactly. See, we should ban planes just as we should ban semi-automatics with lots of bullets.

Thanks for making my point.

 

[rhubroma]

Instrumentalizing the idea that people would "blame the plane," in sarcastic reference to not making gun regulations stricter, is an idiocy that defies comment.

 

[TheGreenMonkey]

Lubitz killed 149 other people, not 150 other people, he was the 150th person on the plane.

 

[Scott SoCal]

Re:

Instrumentalizing the idea that people would "blame the plane," in sarcastic reference to not making gun regulations stricter, is an idiocy that defies comment.

Instrumentalizing the idea that people would "blame the gun," in sarcastic reference to not making plane regulations stricter, is an idiocy that defies comment.

Fixed.

 

[TheGreenMonkey]

How are changing regulations really going to help?
Making sure that there is two people in the cockpit at any one time is far from full proof. If a pilot/co-pilot really wants to crash the plane and kill everyone on it then incapacitating the other person is something that can be done. For all we know Lubitz may have planned to do exactly that but when the pilot left he just took advantage. He could not have guaranteed that he would be alone.

 

[rhubroma]

Re: Re:

Instrumentalizing the idea that people would "blame the plane," in sarcastic reference to not making gun regulations stricter, is an idiocy that defies comment.

Instrumentalizing the idea that people would "blame the gun," in sarcastic reference to not making plane regulations stricter, is an idiocy that defies comment.

Fixed.

´

 

[rhubroma]

This from today's daily. The following comments were written by Paolo Giraldi, Psychiatrist at The University of Rome, la Sapienza.

"It has been written about the young pilot having committed suicide, involving 150 people in his death, in so far as he was depressed. This is a superficial explanation and high media impact, which has the effect of a rapid solution to the issue through placing blame on the pilot's clinical situation. While it is true that patients suffering from depression can have ideas about committing suicide and actually doing so. However, the idea of deliberately doing away with others’ lives has got nothing to do with depression. To the contrary, when depression is the cause of suicide, it is a solitary act, intimate, at times even pudic. The reasons behind the dramatic gesture of Andreas Lubitz are thus to be sought elsewhere. They are qualities of an abnormal person, presumably with a disturbed mind (perhaps even real delirium) and/or problems with empathy (that which allows us to appreciate and regard others state of being). We are, therefore, dealing with the realm of mental disturbances, or of a psychotic individual, and not that of depression. The causes should thus also be placed in the circumstantial environment, of who was not able to identify the grave psychic state of the individual, in time to avoid the tragedy.

Hence the same reasons why, if we want to make a comparison (other than Scott's imbecility) just as you don't allow a crazy person to have access to automatic weapons (point taken I hope), you don't let them fly a commercial airline either.

 

[blackcat]

it was more akin the the Norwegian Breivik. with nil/null/ambiguous motive.

but if you take innocents life, I cannot appreciate how you can reduce it to a numerical function. all individuals are a world unto themself.

and, is it Singer's thought problem, the trolley car? well, no one can every be a utilitarian if they are fat innit?

 

[blackcat]

Re:

How are changing regulations really going to help?
Making sure that there is two people in the cockpit at any one time is far from full proof. If a pilot/co-pilot really wants to crash the plane and kill everyone on it then incapacitating the other person is something that can be done. For all we know Lubitz may have planned to do exactly that but when the pilot left he just took advantage. He could not have guaranteed that he would be alone.

what this is tho, it will be a applied psychological experiment related to collegiate trust. You look at your captain or deputy pilot thinking has this dude holding a shank and gonna garotte me over the rockie mountains

ofcourse it is irrational on a numeric statistical regression. But this is how the terrorist scare campaigns work by your government.

 

[roundabout]

To me incapacitating the other person and then crashing the plane is on another level of crazy from merely locking everybody else out.

As Lubitz did not put the crash axe through his colleagues head, maybe merely the presence of another person can be enough of a deterrent.

 

[blackcat]

To me incapacitating the other person and then crashing the plane is on another level of crazy from merely locking everybody else out.

As Lubitz did not put the crash axe through his colleagues head, maybe merely the presence of another person can be enough of a deterrent.

no, the deterrent would be in (his) three decades of normalisation of human behaviour. there would be some pavlov mechanism(instinct) where you stare at a fellow human, and you operate on auto pilot [sic]. The only way lubitz could put his fantasy into action, is if he did not need to stare into the mirror of a fellow humane. he could manage the aural interference, but without being a neuro-psychiatrist, intuition tells me, he cannot kill someone face to face if given the means. The instrument of the plane allowed him to commit the act anonymously without having to confront victims.

 

[Scott SoCal]

Re: Re:

Instrumentalizing the idea that people would "blame the plane," in sarcastic reference to not making gun regulations stricter, is an idiocy that defies comment.

Instrumentalizing the idea that people would "blame the gun," in sarcastic reference to not making plane regulations stricter, is an idiocy that defies comment.

Fixed.

I wanna be there when karma a$$-f-ucks you with a cactus.

You've got that backwards. If karma is going to spank anyone it will be you.

 

[Scott SoCal]

Re:

This from today's daily. The following comments were written by Paolo Giraldi, Psychiatrist at The University of Rome, la Sapienza.

"It has been written about the young pilot committed suicide, involving 150 people in his death, in so far as he was depressed. This is a superficial explanation and high media impact, which has the effect of a rapid solution to the issue through placing blame on the pilot's clinical situation. While it is true that patients suffering from depression can have ideas about committing suicide and actually doing so. However, the idea of deliberately doing away with others’ lives has got nothing to do with depression. To the contrary, when depression is the cause of suicide, it is a solitary act, intimate, at times even pudic. The reasons behind the dramatic gesture of Andreas Lubitz are thus to be sought elsewhere. They are qualities of an abnormal person, presumably with a disturbed mind (perhaps even real delirium) and/or problems with empathy (that which allows us to appreciate and regard others state of being). We are, therefore, dealing with the realm of mental disturbances, or of a psychotic individual, and not that of depression. The causes should thus also be placed in the circumstantial environment, of who was not able to identify the grave psychic state of the individual, in time to avoid the tragedy.

Hence the same reasons why, if we want to make a comparison (other than Scott's imbecility) you don't allow a crazy person to have access to automatic weapons (point taken I hope), you don't let them fly a commercial airline either.

I knew, eventually, you'd come around to correct thinking on this issue.

Blaming the gun is as stupid as blaming the plane. Or the car. Or the knife.