Why can't the Italians win the TdF?

[BroDeal]

We need more cycling threads.

Leaving aside Pantani as an anomaly, why do the Italians do so poorly at the Tour but so well at about every thing else?

 

[Big Cee]

Beacuse it´s so much more important to be in top shape in the Giro for them?

 

[BroDeal]

Beacuse it´s so much more important to be in top shape in the Giro for them?

I am thinking more along the lines of since the Giro usually has shorter time trials, the type of rider who can win it is not well suited for the TdF.

 

[bianchigirl]

Somewhere in between - the Giro is still very much a national race whereas, since the Seventies when the UCI imposed an international field on the Tour, the TdF has been seen as almost the 'World Cup' of cycling. Italian riders prepare for the Giro above the Tour and M-SR above the cobbled Classics. But the Tour parcours has tended to favour a TTer who can hang in on the climbs rather than a pure climber. That's beginning to change under the direction of Prudhomme, with climbers winning the last 2 editions.

Also, the style of racing is very different - the Giro stages tend to be 'piano' for 3/4 of the stage and then the racing begins whereas the Tour is raced flat out from kilometre 0 stage after stage. And sometimes the Giro makes its stages almost too hard - ironically Contador won the race by hanging on the climbs and TTing better than the competition because some of the climbs were simply too difficult for any rider to make a decisive move and they all grovelled up together.

Both races have their strengths and weaknesses and complement each other. It's just a shame that no rider seriously rides to win the Double anymore. I think Basso could have been that rider but he'll probably spend the rest of his career racing the Giro.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Well, that was certainly the case for years past. Remember the days when Mig was winning the Tour, and those races had nearly 200km of total TT km's. This year's Tour then should show, with it's low TT km's, that a climber is primed to win it. But we already suspect that climber will have the initials AC.

Basso looked very much like he was going to win a Tour before he got himself into trouble. Assuming he's as talented as we thought and it wasn't all doping, he may well win the Tour yet.

And he isn't the only Italian caught doping in recent years.

I think the "Giro first as an Italian" theory has some merit. Gilberto Simoni was at his absolute prime in 2003, and said he'd push Lance in the Tour that year. But he tried a Giro/Tour double and later said that was a big mistake as there was no way he could double peak like that, and finished like 20th in the Tour and was never a threat (he did win a mountain stage though). But this "Giro first" can't only be the case, Cunego focused on the Tour in 2008 and skipped the Giro entirely, and he didn't ride that well.

A lot of Italians simply don't seem that interested in the Tour. I don't know that he could win it, but Danilo DiLuci might have been able to podium in the Tour had he focused a season on it. But I don't know if he's ever seriously ridden the thing. Same with the now retired Salvodelli.

There's talk in Spain of moving the Vuelta back to late April (and nudging the Giro back a week) like the old days. The concept is that riders might race the race more to win, and not as a leftover from the Tour, or prep for the Worlds. Spain sure is prettier this time of year, more than the dry, brown of late summer. But would that keep Spanish riders from focusing on the Tour?

 

[bianchigirl]

I'm all for the GT order going back to what it used to be - and since Indurain won his 5 Tours (and 2 Doubles) when that was the case I can't see it would inhibit the Spanish from showing up at the Tour ready to win.

 

[180mmCrank]

I think things have been a little knocked out of shape by the whole Armstrong and Disco domination. There were some folks who just didn't really see a way of breaking that strangle hold on the event. The Italians in particular didn't fancy banging their heads against that particular brick wall - especially when they could focus on their own race - the Giro is after all huge in Italy. I believe that in the next couple of years things will continue to shift and this will be helped by the re-styling of the race. Over the next two or three years I think we will see some different dynamics in the race and some new faces in the top ten.

 

[Laurent]

why cant the french win the tour or the giro?

 

[Milan.ITALY]

We need more cycling threads.

Leaving aside Pantani as an anomaly, why do the Italians do so poorly at the Tour but so well at about every thing else?

I think Ivan Basso could have won TDF in 2006 if his manager Riis had not left him out of the race; and also in the years later... Unfortunately, this year Ivan Basso as well as Damiano Cunego, who are the best Italian stage-race riders at the moment (apart from Riccò and Sella who are under ban), will not race the TDF in order to the fact that they aim more at the World Championship in Mendrisio on September than TDF, so, being the Vuelta an unloseable appointment to prepare the WC, they both will race the Vuelta and not the TDF; Cunego will race the Vuelta only for training as he has always done so far, Basso, on the contrary will race the Vuelta to win it, not just for training.. so we will see a great show if Contador will race the Vuelta too!!
I agree with some previous posts about the fact that the Giro is more suitable for the climbers than TDF and I think the biggest difficulty to win the Giro and the Tour in the same year is keeping the mind concentration up in the month of June.
Then there is the hot weather that has conditioned some Italian riders in the last years, such as Simoni, Di Luca, instead, has not been ever invited to race the Tour...

 

[ElChingon]

I thought the main purpose of Commercial Teams was to do away with Nationalism? Yet, everyone is about Nationalism. Is it time to bring back Nation based teams?

Lets hope not, there would be way too many Italian and Spanish teams, then you'd see the winners circle change big time.

 

[ingsve]

Another possibility could be some sort of history in how they build their seasons. I have no direct knowledge either way but couldn't it be that Italians are brought up with having a clear spring season and a clear autumn season and thus never really set up their season to be in great shape during the summer.

It's clear that riders have various seasons that suit them better than other seasons. That might have to do with adaption to various climates but could also have more to do with how they manage their training throught the year.

I still believe though that the main factor is wether or not the riders focus on the tour or not. Alot of the italians that come to the tour also competed actively in the giro and only comes to the tour to do whatever...Perhaps win a stage for the team but not really building their season with the Tour as the main goal.

 

[Avoriaz]

This year's Tour then should show, with it's low TT km's, that a climber is primed to win it. But we already suspect that climber will have the initials AC.

No, I don't think Aurelien Clerc will win the Tour.

He is French for a start...

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

I'm all for the GT order going back to what it used to be

I think so too, but there's a lot of resistance. My understanding is that the thoughts are about 50/50 in Spain. (Can anyone from there verify?). I know Pedro Delgado is an advocate of having the Vuelta in April again.

The biggest problem is that it would come right on the heels of Paris-Roubaix, or Amstel Gold, and interfere with it, or F-W and LBL, and the Tour of Romandie and make for a very crowded spring, and an empty late summer.

But as is, the Vuelta seems like an afterthought, or training ground for the World's, which diminishes it.

IMO they could move the Vuelta to start in the last week of April after LBL, and the Giro to start in the last week of May, and maybe even move the Tour back a week. It's pretty unlikely we're going to see many riders go for doubles these days anyway. They would just need to move some races to late summer to fill the void. Perhaps the Tour of California. Having it play out in the last week of August into the first week of September would then allow it to race into the Sierras where we could see more spectacular scenery, and some uphill finishes, and get more global exposure.

 

[jaylew]

We need more cycling threads.

Agreed. It hasn't been much fun around here with every thread either being about doping or degenerating into doping talk.

Leaving aside Pantani as an anomaly, why do the Italians do so poorly at the Tour but so well at about every thing else?

Well, your question didn't ask why they don't win, just why they do poorly, so you could argue that Basso finishing in the top 10 three times(and on the podium twice) aren't poor finishes.

As far as why they don't win, since I guess that is more what you meant, I think part of it is the Giro focus thing, but I also think it just comes down to not having the rider/team that can win. I mean, if you look at the last 18 years, 12 were dominated by only two riders.

 

[jaylew]

But as is, the Vuelta seems like an afterthought, or training ground for the World's, which diminishes it.

Which is sad because I've often found the racing at the Vuelta to be more exciting than both the Tour and the Giro.

 

[ingsve]

On the subject of the old calender...

I think a GT near the end of the year as the vuelta right now wouldn't be too bad if it wasn't for the fact that the Tour has grown so much in stature.

If the prestige between the 3 races was more even and especially if the tour was slightly less prestigious than the other two we would see a completely diffrent situation.

What you could get then is the top GC contenders focusing on 2 big GTs per year. The giro and the vuelta. That will never happen right now since noone would ever skip the Tour for a setup like that and even if someone did then he would be fairly alone in doing it.

 

[BigBoat]

the type of rider who can win it is not well suited for the TdF.

But Italy has I think the most talented stage racer in the world right now: Ivan Basso.

Basso was caught on a fluke; Jesus Manzano came out and admitted to using 100 drugs and told the police exactly where he was getting them and his whole program... This is what caused operation Puerto, an angry rider who almost died of a heart attack on Oxyglobin (the artificial hemoglobin substitute.)

 

[jaylew]

But Italy has I think the most talented stage racer in the world right now: Ivan Basso.

Seriously? What has he done so far in his comeback to suggest that? I'm not saying he won't eventually be there(it could even be this year), but what has he done in the last 2 1/2 years to suggest he can climb or TT with Contador?

 

[Anonymous]

But Italy has I think the most talented stage racer in the world right now: Ivan Basso.

ok.. can someone knock on bigboats door in the morning and take a urine and hair sample please...

 

[BikeCentric]

Can anyone remember the last time an Italian stage racer decided to skip the Giro in order to focus on Le Tour? I *think* Basso might have done that once a few years ago before he got busted in Puerto. But I can't remember anyone else who DIDN'T organize his season to peak at the Giro - I think the Italians simply care more about their own race, and I can understand that. Look at Leipheimer, he's from Santa Rosa in Northern California and he organizes all his seasonal traning for a peak in February so he can win the TDC that goes right through his home town every year - and can you blame him for that decision?

Anyway, back to Italians - Salvodelli, Simoni, Garzelli, Frigo, Basso, Pantani, DiLuca - these are all the big stage racers of the past 10 years that I can remember and basically all of them peaked for the Giro - and with the specific prep that riders do these days you just can't peak for the Giro and then the Tour in the same season. That's why they don't win the TDF, because they want to win the Giro!

 

[BikeCentric]

why cant the french win the tour or the giro?

I think it's just bad luck in that a great stage racer has not been born in France in quite a while. Great stage racers really are pretty rare - every year there's only 3 or 4 guys with a truly legitimate chance to win the TDF.

However, it could also be that the developmental aspect of cyling in France is in decline - that's a pure wild guess though as I've never been to France and admittedly have no clue. It'd be interesting if there is a French fan here with a take on that. There have been plenty of good one-day racers out of France over the years though so I'm going with my original "bad luck" thesis.

 

[ingsve]

Well, france really hasn't had any riders since Moreau that had a chance of competing in GTs and they have been looking and looking and looking.

I do believe that there is one frenchman that could have the capasity to win a GT or at least compete for a podium if he trained for it a bit...Julien Absalon...

I have no idea if he's got any plans of turning over to road racing and how much he would have to learn to make the transition but I'm sure he has the capasity to both climb and TT close to the best of them...

 

[mr. tibbs]

Well, france really hasn't had any riders since Moreau that had a chance of competing in GTs and they have been looking and looking and looking.

I do believe that there is one frenchman that could have the capasity to win a GT or at least compete for a podium if he trained for it a bit...Julien Absalon...

I have no idea if he's got any plans of turning over to road racing and how much he would have to learn to make the transition but I'm sure he has the capasity to both climb and TT close to the best of them...

I would say that Absalon's probably happy where he's at right now, but Sven Nys seems keen on trying the road. So you never know.

It'd be cool to see Absalon try; dude obviously has boat loads of talent.

 

[ingsve]

I would say that Absalon's probably happy where he's at right now, but Sven Nys seems keen on trying the road. So you never know.

It'd be cool to see Absalon try; dude obviously has boat loads of talent.

Ya, possibly. One thing could be that since he's pretty much won everything he could that he ought to start getting lack of motivation and perhaps would like new challenges.

 

[skidmark]

Can anyone remember the last time an Italian stage racer decided to skip the Giro in order to focus on Le Tour?

Yes, as mentioned earlier in the thread, Cunego did that last year.