Why can't the Italians win the TdF?

[Nastyy]

Part of the issue might be that alot of the lesser races in France that are below the pro standard or the lesser pro races that are in the frensh cup for example are rather flat. Races like Paris - Camembert, Route Adelie, Tour Mediteraneen, Tour de Normandie, Cholet-Pays De Loire etc etc don't really have lots of climbs.

I'm not sure but I'd think that the courses have pretty much been the same over the history of these races. So why did France use to produce good climbers in the past?

 

[rhubroma]

The biggest handicap for the Italians at the Tour has of course been time trialing. Frankly the Italians prefer the big mountain passes, while time trials bore the hell out of them. It's more than just a question of style, in a country where appearances count for everything. That's also because a flat 50 or 60 k "race of truth" has little appeal in a country where, apart from the Po Valley, there's not much terrain that doesn't go up. For the Italians the peleton soaring toward the sky is the maximum cycling expression. Consequently, apart from Coppi, Gimondi and Moser, there have been historically no true champions in a discipline which is usually indespensible for winning the Tour. Whereas when they have one the Tour, it has been mostly due to a crushing dominace in the mountains as was the case with Pantani.

Having said that, recently Basso had an excellent chance of winning the Tour in 2006, having tremendously improved his time trialing skills, while at the same time maintaining his phenomenal climbing ability: doping aside mind you. Beyond Basso, though, there was Ricco last year whose sheer climbing power seemed sufficient for the win. Dopping aside, again, mind you.

 

[yetanothergreenworld]

From what I understand based on riders that used to ride for French teams and the quotes from Hinault and Fignon, the French riders for the most part concern themselves with getting in early breaks for the sake of maximizing television exposure, showing their suffering when the moto camera is pointed at them, all the while knowing that their "from the start gun" attack is doomed to failure . . . I can't help but think that with [Virenque] being the closest thing that the French have had to a star in the Tour that his riding style had a major impact on upcoming French professionals.

I think you're right about this -- this is part of what I meant about the whole cultural problem -- this romantic preoccupation with panache and doomed heroism over getting results the "boring" way.

As for Cofidis -- in hindsight it looks increasingly like the exception rather than the rule. At least that's what my friends who race in Europe tell me. Sometimes it bugs me that in America we tend to hold every bit of dirt we can get on the French against them in revenge for their "self-righteous" mistrust of Armstrong. You'll regularly read letters on this website that actually cite the Festina scandal as undermining the French antidoping mantra, as though it weren't the very thing that caused it in the first place. I think that in general the French teams are holding the right line on doping these days, and we should give credit where it's due. (Whether Armstrong's long shower merits the consequences that may eventually come of it is another story!)

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Virenque being the closest thing that the French have had to a star in the Tour that his riding style had a major impact on upcoming French professionals.

But Laurent Jalabert was extremely popular, and until he adopted Virenque's KOM style at the end of his career, was ferociously competitive in almost every aspect of the sport. He just didn't have enough climbing stamina to seriously compete for GC in the Tour.

Why Virenque was so popular is one of those mysteries in life I'll never know. He was a blatant doper, big time, had a very optimistic racing style, and while he did win some races, he rarely did with any panache the French seem to love. Was he really that personable? My French is pretty poor, but I don't recall anything that appealing about anything he said, or the way he carried himself, or looked frankly.

I honestly think one of the reasons the French have done "poorly" in recent years is because after l'Affair Festina, doping went way down, way faster in France than other countries.

 

[BikeCentric]

But Laurent Jalabert was extremely popular...

He was damn good that Ja Ja - Mr. Bastille Day pretty much!

 

[BroDeal]

Why Virenque was so popular is one of those mysteries in life I'll never know. He was a blatant doper, big time, had a very optimistic racing style, and while he did win some races, he rarely did with any panache the French seem to love.

I don't know. Virenque had some impressive wins. A lot of his TdF stage wins were long, stylish breaks. And his Paris-Tours win was hella good.

 

[yetanothergreenworld]

He was damn good that Ja Ja - Mr. Bastille Day pretty much!

Sometimes (and I'll admit the comparison is a bit of a stretch) I think of Jalabert as the Sean Kelly of the 90s -- he was amazingly versatile, and could seemingly win anything BUT the TDF -- big classics, short stage races, Tour stages, the Green Jersey, the Vuelta . . . (Neither he nor Kelly won the Worlds, but that's a different story.)

 

[Angliru]

Agreed, Basso for the next couple of years probably the biggest challenge Contador will have.
If Basso is anywhere as good as at the 2006 Giro (a big if), he will be a match for AC in both the mountain stages and the TT's.

If Andy Schleck continues in his development and meets the lofty expectations that started with his Giro podium in his first grand tour, he will have to be included in this equation. Of course his skills in races against the clock will have to improve but he has to be considered the most dangerous out of the young guns that includes Robert Gesink (Rabobank), Roman Kreuziger (Liquigas), Juan Mauricio Soler (Barloworld), Vicenzo Nibali (Liquigas), Igor Anton (Euskatel) and Thomas Dekker (Silence-Lotto).
Did I leave any of the young talent out? Maybe Linus Gerdemann (Milram) and Rigoberto Uran (Caisse D'Epargne)?

 

[franciep10]

Isn't this supposed to be about why Italians don't win the tour not the French

 

[BikeCentric]

Found it! Here's an awesome interview with Andy Hampsten where he talks about Tour vs. Giro and possibility of winning one or both in the olden days and today:

http://www.competitorradio.com/details.php?show=3

 

[pantanifan]

We need more cycling threads.

Leaving aside Pantani as an anomaly, why do the Italians do so poorly at the Tour but so well at about every thing else?

Pantani as an anomaly..?

No Team has been able to win the TDF, so close after the Giro.

 

[Zoncolan]

If Andy Schleck continues in his development and meets the lofty expectations that started with his Giro podium in his first grand tour, he will have to be included in this equation. Of course his skills in races against the clock will have to improve but he has to be considered the most dangerous out of the young guns that includes Robert Gesink (Rabobank), Roman Kreuziger (Liquigas), Juan Mauricio Soler (Barloworld), Vicenzo Nibali (Liquigas), Igor Anton (Euskatel) and Thomas Dekker (Silence-Lotto).
Did I leave any of the young talent out? Maybe Linus Gerdemann (Milram) and Rigoberto Uran (Caisse D'Epargne)?

Maybe Van Den Broeck?
All the guys you named are great talents, but Gesink, Soler and Anton can't TT with the best, whereas Kreuziger and Nibali cannot climb with the best. As for Dekker, a huge ? over this guy. Showed great promise a few years ago, but since then not much. Maybe changing teams will tur things around for him?
As for Schleck, I agree, his TT needs to improve vastly. Right now, he can climb with the best, but he's bound to lose over three minutes in two TT's in the GT's. Riis did manage to do wonders for Basso's TT-ing, no reason he can't do the same for Andy.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Found it! Here's an awesome interview with Andy Hampsten...

Great link there BikeCentric. I think I've heard it before, but what a great listen. He starts talking about the Giro-Tour double about 27 minutes in. Basically he says the racing is so fast throughout the stages, that it's too difficult now to do the double.

 

[ingsve]

If Andy Schleck continues in his development and meets the lofty expectations that started with his Giro podium in his first grand tour, he will have to be included in this equation. Of course his skills in races against the clock will have to improve but he has to be considered the most dangerous out of the young guns that includes Robert Gesink (Rabobank), Roman Kreuziger (Liquigas), Juan Mauricio Soler (Barloworld), Vicenzo Nibali (Liquigas), Igor Anton (Euskatel) and Thomas Dekker (Silence-Lotto).
Did I leave any of the young talent out? Maybe Linus Gerdemann (Milram) and Rigoberto Uran (Caisse D'Epargne)?

I'd say you left out Thomas Lövkvist. At his best he can certainly climb with alot of these guys and he can beat most of them in time trials. He is yet to prove that he can last an entire GT but that's just a matter of time imo. It's going to be interesting to see if he can get in shape for the Giro. It might be that May suits him better than July.

 

[hmronnow]

... while he did win some races, he rarely did with any panache the French seem to love. Was he really that personable? My French is pretty poor, but I don't recall anything that appealing about anything he said, or the way he carried himself, or looked frankly.

I shall in no way defend Virenque, but do remember examples you are asking for:
- more or less his first race after returning from doping ban (sorry I can't remember which race), he was in usual day-long break with Jacky Durand (I think). Went alone some 10-20km from finish and managed to stay few seconds ahead of sprinters to win. Watching on TV, it was clear he had cramps in both quads for the last several km. The tennacity he displayed there was awsome.
- there is one quote I particularly enjoyed from an interview with Richard - it went something like this: "I wanted to do something in life, but quickly found out that I'm not very intelligent - so I took up cycling".

 

[jaylew]

Maybe Van Den Broeck?
All the guys you named are great talents, but Gesink, Soler and Anton can't TT with the best, whereas Kreuziger and Nibali cannot climb with the best. As for Dekker, a huge ? over this guy. Showed great promise a few years ago, but since then not much. Maybe changing teams will tur things around for him?
As for Schleck, I agree, his TT needs to improve vastly. Right now, he can climb with the best, but he's bound to lose over three minutes in two TT's in the GT's. Riis did manage to do wonders for Basso's TT-ing, no reason he can't do the same for Andy.

I'd say you left out Thomas Lövkvist. At his best he can certainly climb with alot of these guys and he can beat most of them in time trials. He is yet to prove that he can last an entire GT but that's just a matter of time imo. It's going to be interesting to see if he can get in shape for the Giro. It might be that May suits him better than July.

And perhaps Brajkovic and Luis Sanchez.

 

[Zoncolan]

Brajkovic had a great 2006(did great in the Vuelta), and an OK '07, where he won the Tour of Georgia. But not much since then.
As for LL Sanchez, the same thing appies as with Nibali and Kreuziger. Very good in the TT's, as strong as the other GT contenders; strong in the climbs of a smaller gradient, but when it goes over 6-7%, he's no match for the real climbers.

 

[ingsve]

Brajkovic had a great 2006(did great in the Vuelta), and an OK '07, where he won the Tour of Georgia. But not much since then.
As for LL Sanchez, the same thing appies as with Nibali and Kreuziger. Very good in the TT's, as strong as the other GT contenders; strong in the climbs of a smaller gradient, but when it goes over 6-7%, he's no match for the real climbers.

Comparing someone who is a strong time trialer but a little weaker in the mountains with someone that is a suberb climber but loses alot in time trials I'd put my money on the time trialer in the long run.

For the time trialer who depends on a strong motor it's alot easier to defend himself in the mountains in a steady pace Indurain style than it is for a pure climber like Roberto Heras to suddenly become a good time trialer.

An extreem example of this is Sergiy Gonchar who was an extreem time trialer who never really could climb but rather just powered through on huge gears and still managed at least 4 top 10s in the giro.

 

[Power13]

I shall in no way defend Virenque, but do remember examples you are asking for:
- more or less his first race after returning from doping ban (sorry I can't remember which race), he was in usual day-long break with Jacky Durand (I think). Went alone some 10-20km from finish and managed to stay few seconds ahead of sprinters to win.

That was Paris-Tours.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

That was Paris-Tours.

Good call guys. Even so, it always seemed to me that Jaja rode with a lot more grit and determination, and had a better personality (and probably did a lot less drugs!)