Why didn't Wiggins help the Shreks?

[BroDeal]

Andy and Frank Schleck could not keep a high enough pace to keep the likes of Armstrong from coming back after the initial surge, so why didn't Wiggins help out? He should have been more suited to the moderate grade, and he has a reason to put time into Armstrong.

 

[scribe]

I don't think they saw Armstrong coming before it was too late.

 

[Jayarbie]

Andy and Frank could not keep a high enough pace to keep the likes of Armstrong from coming back after the initial surge, so why didn't Wiggins help out? He should have been more suited to the moderate grade, and he has a reason to put time into Armstrong.

He tried and did lift the pace when Armstrong attacked the chase group, but he couldn't hold him off at all, and after Lance made the juncture (or really, when the juncture became inevitable), he turned off the gas. Lance was just flying across the gap, and there was nothing he could do.

You do realize that you're asking why Bradley Wiggins didn't drop an attacking Lance Armstrong on the slopes of a Cat 1 Alpine col? Does that really need an answer?

 

[BroDeal]

He tried and did lift the pace when Armstrong attacked the chase group, but he couldn't hold him off at all, and after Lance made the juncture (or really, when the juncture became inevitable), he turned off the gas. Lance was just flying across the gap, and there was nothing he could do.

You do realize that you're asking why Bradley Wiggins didn't drop an attacking Lance Armstrong on the slopes of a Cat 1 Alpine col? Does that really need an answer?

Regardless of why Wiggins is suddenly one of the best climbers in the world, Wiggins spent a lot of time riding at the back of the Schleck group, following just like Contador. He could have at least tried to help out once Frank peeled off.

 

[Jayarbie]

Regardless of why Wiggins is suddenly one of the best climbers in the world, Wiggins spent a lot of time riding at the back of the Schleck group, following just like Contador. He could have at least tried to help out once Frank peeled off.

But he did. It just didn't last very long because it was completely ineffective in holding off Armstrong, who was flying across the gap, and once Lance was back with the group, he no longer had any reason to pull.

 

[BroDeal]

But he did. It just didn't last very long because it was completely ineffective in holding off Armstrong, who was flying across the gap, and once Lance was back with the group, he no longer had any reason to pull.

I will have to watch the end of the stage again. All I remember is Wiggins spending a lot of time hanging out at the back of the group.

 

[42coppi]

C'mon guys this is not exactly home ground for Wiggins - riding High Cols with the Shreks, and Astanas of this world.
Holding your place would seem the most sensible way of riding and saving something for for the ITT and Ventoux.

 

[Jayarbie]

I will have to watch the end of the stage again. All I remember is Wiggins spending a lot of time hanging out at the back of the group.

He was riding at the back of the attack group immediately after the initial attack. When Lance attacked the chase group, Wiggins went to the front of the attack group and lifted the pace, but he couldn't match Armstrong's acceleration and as soon as it was clear that Lance was coming come hell or high water, he resumed riding tempo at the back of the group. It didn't last very long (because Lance closed the gap very quickly), but he did try. The whole attack was basically neutralized after Armstrong bridged.

 

[mherm79]

coz it wasn't worth the risk

maybe it's because Wiggins is racing to achieve his own/team goals, which during the first 2wks of the TdF have increased from a top 20 to a podium spot.

helping Andy attack would have had two outcomes

1. he makes time and goes from 3 to 2 on GC
2. he bonks now or over the next stages due to the extra energy he used and drops off the podium.

basically i think he/his director thought it's not worth the risk.

instead he proved to himself and others that he could hang on with the big boys, let the Shelcks (and Lance) waste energy and lives to fight another day.

unlike the Shelcks Wiggins has a chance of making time on both AC and LA during the TT

 

[dadoorsron]

Andy and Frank Schleck could not keep a high enough pace to keep the likes of Armstrong from coming back after the initial surge, so why didn't Wiggins help out? He should have been more suited to the moderate grade, and he has a reason to put time into Armstrong.

Why would Wiggins help to pace two riders that are behind him in the standings?

 

[runninboy]

Why would Wiggins help to pace two riders that are behind him in the standings?

+1
Exactly right

 

[Bagster]

I will have to watch the end of the stage again. All I remember is Wiggins spending a lot of time hanging out at the back of the group.

I think that if you look at the rerun of the tape there are acouple of things that stand out. Firstly after the initial surge that broke the group up and left LA, Sastre, Cadel and VdV behind, there was a gradual slowing down of the front group. You can see this by the fact that initially the time on the leaders (pelezotti) dropped to around 2.53 but then began to climb back up to the 3 minute mark, so despite the Schleks keeping on the pressure the attack was a little weak and seemed to be easily covered by AC and the others. I think Wiggo was just keeping his powder dry rather than smash himself helping an attack that was going nowhere. When LA bridges across they had already given up the effort which is why he gets across relatively quickly. They had shut down before he joined them not after. I think if they had panned back down the mountain we would have seen Sastre and a few others also making good ground up on the AC group as they joined not long after LA made contact. Given the longish downhill finish I am not sure that this was a real attempt at breaking Astana, it was rather just an attempt to soften them up for more attacks tomorrow. Though looking at Andy and Frank it looked like they did more damage to themselves than they did to the three Astana guys.

 

[richwagmn]

C'mon guys this is not exactly home ground for Wiggins - riding High Cols with the Shreks, and Astanas of this world.
Holding your place would seem the most sensible way of riding and saving something for for the ITT and Ventoux.

Agree with this. He's all new to riding with the big boys in the climbs. He just might pinch himself every morning when we wakes up to see if it's all a dream.

The real question, is how well does he go in the ITT?

 

[dadoorsron]

I think that if you look at the rerun of the tape there are acouple of things that stand out. Firstly after the initial surge that broke the group up and left LA, Sastre, Cadel and VdV behind, there was a gradula slowing down of the front group. You can see this by the fact that initially the time on the leaders (pelezotti) initially dropped to around 2.53 but then began to climb back up to the 3 minute mark, so despite the Schleks keeping on the pressure the attack was a little weak and seemed to be easily covered by AC and the others. When LA bridges across they had already given up the effort which is why he gets across relatively quickly. They had shut down before he joined them not after. I think if they had panned back down the mountain we would have seen Sastre and a few others also making good ground up on the AC group as they joined not long after LA made contact. Given the longish downhill finish I am not sure that this was a real attempt at breaking Astana, it was rather just an attempt to soften them up for more attacks tomorrow. Though looking at Andy and Frank it looked like they did more damage to themselves than they did to the three Astana guys.

If the effort of the lead group dropped why did Frank get dropped from the lead group and lance past him up about 200 meters before he rejoined the group. They did slow after lance rejoined. Sastre was able to rejoin the group to right before the group got to the top.

Tomorrows stage will be crazy hard. However, you have another down hill finish. 30-50 seconds behind and you should be able to come back to the lead group. The GC leaders following dave Z. made up a minute on the descent. Unless you drop your rivals by more then 2 minutes It's almost a waste of energy to try. If you do attack Within the first 2k on the climb if you don't have more then 50 seconds on your rivals you should turn the gas off and save the energy. If the chase group stays within the 50 second mark you will get caught on the way down.

 

[Publicus]

Why would Wiggins help to pace two riders that are behind him in the standings?

It's a win-win situation for Wiggins that's why. If he helps put Armstrong in a hole, then he moves up to second on GC and stays at par with the Schlecks who also move up on GC at Armstrong's expense. Neither Wiggins or Schleck use their maximum energy because they are (theoretically) sharing the workload.

The better question is why Contador didn't work with the Schlecks to drop Wiggins. He wants to put time into Wiggins before the ITT. Tomorrow is his only day to do so. Once the Schlecks accept that they can't drop him, then they should work together to maximize their time gains on their rivals. If that includes Armstrong, then so be it.

 

[red_explosions]

Wiggo's strategy seems pretty clear. Follow the attacks, let others do the work in forcing the pace/bridging, sit in and save energy for the ITT. The way he's riding I can see him doing serious damage in Annecy.

 

[BroDeal]

It's a win-win situation for Wiggins that's why. If he helps put Armstrong in a hole, then he moves up to second on GC and stays at par with the Schlecks who also move up on GC at Armstrong's expense. Neither Wiggins or Schleck use their maximum energy because they are (theoretically) sharing the workload.

The better question is why Contador didn't work with the Schlecks to drop Wiggins. He wants to put time into Wiggins before the ITT. Tomorrow is his only day to do so. Once the Schlecks accept that they can't drop him, then they should work together to maximize their time gains on their rivals. If that includes Armstrong, then so be it.

Right about Wigins and Armstrong. He had a chance to possibly bury Armstrong and probably assure himself a podium finish, even if he fades a little on Ventoux.

Contador looks like he is riding defensively, assuming that he can crush Wiggins on Ventoux. Wiggins also did not show weakness like Armstrong did. It would have been interesting to see what he would have done if Wiggins would have been left with the Armstrong group.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I think why there was a hesitation in general by everyone - Schleks, Wiggans-near the top was because they knew they had a full 30km to descend to the finish and everyone was going to get back regardless.

 

[unsheath]

This stage is another reason why descent finishes should be limited. The impetus on the climb stopped at 5km from the summit once everyone realised Astana couldn't be dropped.

There were a couple of poignant moments when the Schlecks were eyeing each other, clearly out of ideas. I've got a feeling they'll be able to isolate Contador tomorrow, it's then they need to alternate attacks and break him down.

 

[mherm79]

I've got a feeling they'll be able to isolate Contador tomorrow, it's then they need to alternate attacks and break him down.

i have doubts, as our Ozy commentators said, Klodi looked like he was sitting in arm chair.

Lance is also getting better after each stage, yesterday's attack was calculated show of strenght and I think that would have caused more than a few GC contendors and Directors a sleepless night...

 

[Captain Serious]

Is it just me, or is all the talk by Philby and Paulo of 'helping' and 'pulling' on climbs a bit of a joke, because there's virtually no slipstream? Pacing is one thing, but 'pulling' when they're doing 22km/h? Carm on!

 

[Vanderaerden's perm]

Why would Wiggins help to pace two riders that are behind him in the standings?

To put distance between him and the man ahead of him on GC perhaps?

Ultimately, I think because Armstrong is such a good descender, he'd have got back on anyway.

 

[Buninyong Bunny]

If the effort of the lead group dropped why did Frank get dropped from the lead group and lance past him up about 200 meters before he rejoined the group. They did slow after lance rejoined. Sastre was able to rejoin the group to right before the group got to the top.

Tomorrows stage will be crazy hard. However, you have another down hill finish. 30-50 seconds behind and you should be able to come back to the lead group. The GC leaders following dave Z. made up a minute on the descent. Unless you drop your rivals by more then 2 minutes It's almost a waste of energy to try. If you do attack Within the first 2k on the climb if you don't have more then 50 seconds on your rivals you should turn the gas off and save the energy. If the chase group stays within the 50 second mark you will get caught on the way down.

You do realize that today's descent is 1/2 of what today's was, and that the time gained my the peleton on the front group was only because of Zabrisike and would not have occured otherwise. All of the riders in the peleton were there before the top of the hill or drifted back from the front of the race.

There are 16 k's of steep climbing at the end of the race tomorrow, and that is more than enough to gain a half a minute before the last summit to hold off Astana (who don't look to be that good at decsending).

Back on topic, Wiggins would know that 2nd is his best possible position, and that unless anyone gets in front of him tomorrow or on Ventoux, he will achieve that easily. So all he has to do is follow all the moves off the front, and not waste any energy doing anything else. Boring yes, but this year at least it is pointless for him to do anything else.

 

[rhubroma]

The climb was too far from the finish to have a "no holds bar, drop the gauntlet," slug match. Had it been an uphill finish, AC would have gone into action, droped everybody, with probably Schleck (Andy) and Wiggins, clawing and scratching to limit their losses to the finish. And Armstrong would not have resisted them, as he did in yesterday's different course.

As it was the attack, which did eliminate Evans, but not Armstrong (who I must say, even for a guy who never liked him, did an impressive bridge - he absolutely squeezed evey ounce of energy out of his body to save his GC 2nd place, but he did it. Amazing character that, from an athletic point of view mind you.), was destined to loose steam, the moment it was aparant that the latter was coming back to them.

Had it been a sprint up to the finish line, however, Armstrong would have been definitively dropped. By how much I don't know, but on the sheer dynamics of yesterday's course, he would have surely lost time had the race finished on the mountain. Or else he would have had to pull a Stephen Roche at Alpe d'Huez 87 to keep it to less than 20 seconds.

In any case this is why Wiggins, in my opinion, was dissuaded from pursuing an action which wasn't going to gain him anything, so logic (and your body) tells you to mission abort. Also because let's say they were able to hold Armstrong off, resisting his bold counter-attack form behind, it would have been so minimal over the col, that Armstrong would have come back to them anyway on the descent. Thus, again, mission abort. Whereas had they been racing to the finish, and not to a 20k descent to the finish, then everybody would have killed themselves as much as Armstrong did to bridge, leaving the latter dropped and putting time in him. That's how I see it, in any event.

 

[Animal]

Agreed.

Surely Ventoux will be a different story. That will be absolutely full gas. Only the Champs Elysee procession to come, so everyone will be au bloc once the gloves come off.

And how soon will that be? Is there a team strong and confident enough to hit the base of the climb with the same attitude that Saxo and Garmin hit Verbier?