why I didn't dope

[the big ring]

What were your preferred dope-free recovery techniques?

 

[LauraLyn]

I have asthma.

I wasn't born with it.

I am not alone.

. . . .

I have had extensive testing, and asthma medication does not return me to normal let alone above normal. . . . . Dave.

Dave, it is my sentiment as well.

I'll push it a bit further, but hopefully it is not misunderstood.

In the past weeks we have been cheering people on in the Special Olympics who have severe handicaps and using all kinds of performance enhancing mechanisms to compete. We cheer them on, and rightly we should. We also bust them when they dope, and again we should.

If a guy/gal on a handbike can compete in a one day race with amateurs or pro's, they should be allowed to, I think. If a guy has asthma or arrhythmia or blood clotting issues or whatever, they should be allowed to enter the level playing field.

[I'm going to go a step further (just to increase my popularity scores here): if a woman rider can ride as good as someone else in the peleton, she should be invited to be on a team. But this is another thread or another life.]

The point is "a level playing field" is there for everyone. It just doesn't sell finish line tickets or TV rights as well as doping does.

 

[D-Queued]

Dave, it is my sentiment as well.

...

Thanks!

In
1. fairness to zigmeister
2. showing that an old dog can learn from new information
3. trying to grapple with the very high incidence of asthma in the pro peloton

as posted in another thread, I just realized (i.e. re-read a WADA reference I had used previously) that a side-effect of Clenbuterol is:

(e) Association with an increased risk of the combined outcome of fatal and near-fatal asthma, as well as of death from asthma alone.
(Spitzer WO et al. 1992. Sears MR et al. 1990) asthma.

I cannot use that as my excuse (and have not experienced any fatal incidents), and it may be stretching the association quite a bit, but an association with asthma could be suggest one causal factor of the asthma incidence withing the peloton.

Dave.

 

[Realist]

Greg, it is very clear you have no tickets on yourself, and I do not see it the way "Realist" does.

Fully agree power output values can be deceptive. I've gone training with guys who clearly have more power than me, smashing me up every climb. Come race day the roles are reversed. I've also won races at 80% ftiness purely because I knew I was underdone so raced much more conservatively than I usually do.

If power was all it was about we wouldn't even have to race. Just jump on an ergo and bang out a ramp test to exhaustion.

There's so much more.

Power isn't the be all and end all, but it's the price of admission at the top level. You can race well with less, and even win, but you'll never go up a notch. I have plenty of anecdotes about guys with less power winning, including myself, and I've explained this exact thing to plenty of people. I'm not part of the Strava generation. But at 340w, 67kg, you're just not cut out for it. Everything ain't for everyone man.

 

[the big ring]

Power isn't the be all and end all, but it's the price of admission at the top level. You can race well with less, and even win, but you'll never go up a notch. I have plenty of anecdotes about guys with less power winning, including myself, and I've explained this exact thing to plenty of people. I'm not part of the Strava generation. But at 340w, 67kg, you're just not cut out for it. Everything ain't for everyone man.

And if Greg had plateaued, your point would be far more valuable. I think you're missing the point of his post, and I for one welcome it.

 

[Realist]

Also this focus on asthma TUE stuff is stupid. Asthma medication (salbutamol/albuterol) is not dangerous and is not performance enhancing unless you have a breathing problem. If some muppet wants to take it for no reason, good for them. Alternate theories would include that (i) asthmatics are encouraged to take up sport, so that they are over-represented in elite ranks (evidence based) (ii) elite athletes are more likely to have breathing problems diagnosed because of pursuit of marginal gains, hence more diagnosis (somewhat speculative) and (iii) maybe there is a genetic co-association between performance and asthma? Highly speculative but it could be true. I've no doubt some idiots are (iv) they think it helps them win even though they have no breathing problem. Big deal. Don't make access to asthma meds difficult for people like me, who need them, just because there are some fools not actually benefiting from them.

 

[GreggGermer]

What were your preferred dope-free recovery techniques?

-- Sleep, lots of it

-- Fruit smoothies with honey and peanut butter

-- Massage, either by my wife (then girlfriend, to fiance, to wife in my years as a pro), but I found "The Stick" quite effective

-- Supplementes to help scatter free radicals like, Vitamin C, Q10

-- And the all important canal ride to Gent for a coffee and some people watching in the Korenmarkt.

Recovery for me was always one of the biggest problems. I could always go quite hard in one day races, but would be really screwed up for a couple of days. It's why I knew I was never going to be a stage race, but was the type of rider who could do well in one-day races. Over time my tolerance for work-load was getting much higher and in my last year I found myself able to handle the races much easier than in the past.

 

[GreggGermer]

But at 340w, 67kg, you're just not cut out for it.

I guess I was just a dreamer who waisted my life having some kick-*** experiences in Europe and living my dream. What a waist of so many years

Everything ain't for everyone man.

Yup, that is true ... but why harp on what YOU think my ability was and could have be.

I think why I'm so bent on arguing with you, some random interwebber, is that I've had others in my past tell me "I would never make it as a pro" or "I should set my goals a little lower" these were from people I had some respect for (my Belgian amateur team manager and the club coach of my first team). The first time with the coach I wanted to win a Cat. 5 race of the Tour of Texas series and did just that. With my old manager I turned pro the next year in Europe.

So from the start of my cycling I've had plenty of people who said I wouldn't be able to do this or that, but I kept believing in myself and kept on progressing (and smashing the limits other said I had).

I could have been at my true limit, but I'm convinced I wasn't. My pro teams were not even close to the ideal development situation. There was still room to improve those areas, training could be adapted and progress could be made.

In the end I did three years as a pro in Europe. More than most, less than some. I raced most of the big semi-classics in Belgium and held my own against the worlds best. I wasn't by any means the best rider out there, but I also wasn't the worst. For me you don't spend three years racing in Europe on pro teams as a foreigner as a fluke.

Anywho, enough time waisted on the past ... I've got things to do that actually help towards the future.

 

[LauraLyn]

Power isn't the be all and end all. . . . But at 340w, 67kg, you're just not cut out for it. Everything ain't for everyone man.

I think it was Gregg's point that there are many factors that can contribute to someone becoming a top cyclist. And some of those "factors" aren't worth it. For example, losing your honor and dignity.

 

[ebandit]

well said

I think it was Gregg's point that there are many factors that can contribute to someone becoming a top cyclist. And some of those "factors" aren't worthy it. For example, losing your honor and dignity.

well said!

keep posting your thoughts.............ignore the forum bullies who just because they have amassed thousands of posts think that it is acceptable to tell others what to do

 

[LauraLyn]

well said!

keep posting your thoughts.............ignore the forum bullies who just because they have amassed thousands of posts think that it is acceptable to tell others what to do

Thanks. Appreciated. And caught my typo thanks to you as well. (Typos are one thing that really do get my goat. )

 

[D-Queued]

...

I think why I'm so bent on arguing with you, some random interwebber, is that I've had others in my past tell me "I would never make it as a pro" or "I should set my goals a little lower" ...

He is a Realist, I am a disqualified random interwebber. Sheesh. Get that straight.

But, why would you pick an argument on that subject?

Join the crowd. I have had plenty of 'informed people' tell me to stop chasing the dream. They were obviously wrong, and it was a stupid thing to say. It isn't their dream, is it?

The advice I liked the best came from a coach who seems oddly associated with some alleged dopers. Not a coffee session went by when he didn't laud the virtues of his vitamin shots.

Was he concerned about my open criticism of doping and some sort of plan to get his athletes on the program?

Dave.

 

[Realist]

I guess I was just a dreamer who waisted my life having some kick-*** experiences in Europe and living my dream. What a waist of so many years

Nah dude, this has nothing to do with what I'm saying. You did what you wanted with the talent you had. Congratulations. I did the same thing, which for me involved getting my degree and winning local races.

Yup, that is true ... but why harp on what YOU think my ability was and could have be.

You're the one who hold yourself out to be this pro rider who was held back by the scourge of doping though no one ever offered you drugs . It wasn't even on the radar for someone at your level. It's no different to a random cat 3 writing it. I mean, cool, I didn't use drugs either and neither did my cat 4 housemate. I did have a doctor tell me what worked and what didn't once, and a rider offer to show me how to inject. 'Just for vitamins'. I didn't dope, even though I was given the option. Of course, it would have made no sense to put my health at risk because I wasn't at that level where the reward is super-high, so I am in no position to get self-righteous about this and criticise dopers too harshly and claim I had all these things taken away from me by them. Same applies to you.

...I could have been at my true limit, but I'm convinced I wasn't. My pro teams were not even close to the ideal development situation. There was still room to improve those areas, training could be adapted and progress could be made.

Seriously? Why did you quit then? Because of the scourge of drugs you never even saw?

In the end I did three years as a pro in Europe. More than most, less than some. I raced most of the big semi-classics in Belgium and held my own against the worlds best. I wasn't by any means the best rider out there, but I also wasn't the worst. For me you don't spend three years racing in Europe on pro teams as a foreigner as a fluke.

I'm not saying you made poor life choices or you shouldn't be proud, just get off your damn high horse about the drug thing. You were some guy. You quit when it made sense to. Drugs had very little to do with it.

 

[Ozzie2]

I find this thread inspiring
I will print it for my teenage sons to read.
the nasty posts will serve well to demonstrate other elements of people and how they choose to engage
I had/have bad athsma and took up swimming because of it
I would be dead Without seretide
I read a book this week about a 13yr old kid who landed in an Asian country to meet his old man an airline pilot. For some reason that part I found impacted me the most of the while book
then another Moment when he called his mum and said they want my roommate to take a pill.
that too

thank you for this thread.
it has more credibility to Me,_ because_you weren't worlds greatest

 

[the big ring]

You're the one who hold yourself out to be this pro rider who was held back by the scourge of doping though no one ever offered you drugs .

Completely and utterly disagree. Your reading / comprehension filter is decidedly warped.

 

[Realist]

Originally Posted by Realist

You're the one who hold yourself out to be this pro rider who was held back by the scourge of doping though no one ever offered you drugs .

Completely and utterly disagree. Your reading / comprehension filter is decidedly warped.

Germer quotes Vaughters:

Vaughters: “And think about the talented athletes who did make the right choice and walked away. They were punished for following their moral compass and being left behind. How do they reconcile the loss of their dream?”

Answers:

This is unfortunately a question he can’t answer, but I can.

It is unambiguous: Gregg says he can tell us about athletes who lost their dream because of dopers, implying that he is one of these athletes. Reading comprehension is actually my forte.

But what has he done in the fight against doping, which he never actually encountered?

This courageous stand?

I wasn’t hugely vocal about my anti-doping stance. I knew better back in the early 2000’s to stand up and shout “Look at me, I’m clean!”

Thinking about the possibility that something might exist but not actually doing anything about it?

My rebellion against doping went on as far as legitimately looking into establishing a program similar in scope to the Bike Pure movement has established, but with the use of actual contracts with real financial penalties against those who violated the trust of the agreement by doping. My teammates thought the idea was crazy and I wasn’t willing to put my name to the idea for fear of being blacklisted. So the idea stayed an idea …

And he takes pills from his team director without knowing what they are, after complaining of tiredness? A doping conscious rider, in Europe in the mid-2000's, randomly takes pills without finding out what they are? But the thought of doping only comes into his head AFTER he takes them? "The time I decided to dope but wasn't very good at it".

...as I sat in the cafe I told my team director how tired I was, how much I hurt and that I just wanted to survive the day. He pulled a couple of pills out of his pocket and said, “Take two of these”. I took the two pills without a second thought or regard as to what they were and downed them with some coffee. Only seconds later it dawned on me that I had no clue what I just took. Thoughts ran through my head of racing my head off on two amphetamine pills or something even crazier! But quickly I realized it was probably nothing and asked what I just took. Two Ibuprofen pills … confirmed by the small package in his pocket, but even then I felt I had stepped into an area I didn’t want to be.

Look, Tyler is courageous. He is telling the truth despite an army of lawyers trying to step on him. He faced his demons. Bassons is even more courageous. This is just grandstanding and it demeans both those who faced real temptation and gave in and, even more, those who faced it and stood up and said no.

 

[the big ring]

Look, Tyler is courageous. He is telling the truth despite an army of lawyers trying to step on him. He faced his demons. Bassons is even more courageous. This is just grandstanding and it demeans both those who faced real temptation and gave in and, even more, those who faced it and stood up and said no.

Tyler's chimera twin agrees with you. No really.

2 people can easily read the same thing and take away a different message. We are those 2 people. Our filters are different. You have a problem with what a complete stranger has written. You can go on and on pedantically about what was written, I do the same thing myself. But what's the underlying message?

Doping could have helped. I could have doped. I chose not to.

To make claims about whether doping could have helped, or whether he had the opportunity to dope are things you should not do, because you were not there, and do not know.

I am happy to agree to disagree, and will let you have the last word.

 

[Ozzie2]

I Still find this a characteristic I wish my boys to recognise, respect, and aspire to.
end of story for me.
the world needs more people to say no, and do no

cycling needs it
spectators need it
my sons need it as they navigate adolescence and adulthood.
as a father I need it

Thank you to those who sacrifice potential glory for integrity And the great sport

 

[momotaro]

thanks for sharing, here is my experience

Thanks for the read, Gregg: it brought back memories from my short time in the Ghent scene. I think the story is very typical: good North American amateur goes to Belgium to race. *** is handed to him in the first few races by a bunch of juiced up euros. Suffers on a very meger salary and lousy lifestyle for a few years, and slowly starts to understand how to win or at least be competitive. Starts to figure out where he stands in terms of ability, earning potential, drugs, future, etc. Returns to North America a better man.

Same thing happened to me and and many others. In the end it is as much about money as it is about the dope. In my time (1999-2001), I don't think the local kermese crew could afford much more than caffeine and ephidrine. Most of them could barely afford dinner!

Other points:

In my era, we did not have power meters on bikes, so I can't comment on FTP, or W/kg. Maybe some one can estimate mine from the following data: 71kg, 5.8L/min MVO2, I did several "stepped" tests on the computrainer: 30 watt increments, 3 minute stages, I could complete the 470 Watt stage, but not fully complete the 500 Watt stage. I dunno, does this put my FTP in the low 400 range?

My point is that my housemate (who was on the same Flanders team BTW), could not match my numbers, but he was winning kermese. He would get away very early and then hold out until the main selection was made. He then would hang on until the sprint and then win the sprint. Smart guy, but it took him at least a year to figure it out. He never got a decent contract and came back home.

Myself? I raced about 6 weeks in Belgium, not enough time to figure out how the races unfold. I placed in a criterium by making the break, but the race was bought out (I did not speak flemish, so I did not even get a cut). The racing is fast, but not insanely fast. Went on to do some national team stuff and raced in a 2.1 next to the real superstars...now that is insanely fast. Once I took a realistic look at my ability, the hardship of the sport, the lack of money, the likely need to take drugs, and the general uncertainty of a future in general, I chose to finish my Masters, and get a regular job.

In the end it was mostly about money and the future and to a smaller degree about the drugs.

Two of my teammates and at least 6 from my "era" have made it to the ProTour and make good money (at least some of them I know to be clean). I think all of them were more talented than me. Many more have done the Pro Conti thing and have had a nice career, but certainly not rich.

BTW: I never took anything. I tried one caffiene pill (before caffiene pills were on the banned list), and it gave me massive stomach cramps. No tent, no ephidrine, no inhalers, nothing. Would like to say that I was super moral, but I think it just did not make sense to dope at the level I was racing. Now, if doping meant a six figure, multi-year contract I would have a harder time staying moral. Not sure that I would have done it, but definitely would give it some thought.

 

[Realist]

Thanks for the read, Gregg: it brought back memories from my short time in the Ghent scene. I think the story is very typical: good North American amateur goes to Belgium to race. *** is handed to him in the first few races by a bunch of juiced up euros. Suffers on a very meger salary and lousy lifestyle for a few years, and slowly starts to understand how to win or at least be competitive. Starts to figure out where he stands in terms of ability, earning potential, drugs, future, etc. Returns to North America a better man.

Same thing happened to me and and many others. In the end it is as much about money as it is about the dope. In my time (1999-2001), I don't think the local kermese crew could afford much more than caffeine and ephidrine. Most of them could barely afford dinner!

Other points:

In my era, we did not have power meters on bikes, so I can't comment on FTP, or W/kg. Maybe some one can estimate mine from the following data: 71kg, 5.8L/min MVO2, I did several "stepped" tests on the computrainer: 30 watt increments, 3 minute stages, I could complete the 470 Watt stage, but not fully complete the 500 Watt stage. I dunno, does this put my FTP in the low 400 range?

My point is that my housemate (who was on the same Flanders team BTW), could not match my numbers, but he was winning kermese. He would get away very early and then hold out until the main selection was made. He then would hang on until the sprint and then win the sprint. Smart guy, but it took him at least a year to figure it out. He never got a decent contract and came back home.

Myself? I raced about 6 weeks in Belgium, not enough time to figure out how the races unfold. I placed in a criterium by making the break, but the race was bought out (I did not speak flemish, so I did not even get a cut). The racing is fast, but not insanely fast. Went on to do some national team stuff and raced in a 2.1 next to the real superstars...now that is insanely fast. Once I took a realistic look at my ability, the hardship of the sport, the lack of money, the likely need to take drugs, and the general uncertainty of a future in general, I chose to finish my Masters, and get a regular job.

In the end it was mostly about money and the future and to a smaller degree about the drugs.

Two of my teammates and at least 6 from my "era" have made it to the ProTour and make good money (at least some of them I know to be clean). I think all of them were more talented than me. Many more have done the Pro Conti thing and have had a nice career, but certainly not rich.

BTW: I never took anything. I tried one caffiene pill (before caffiene pills were on the banned list), and it gave me massive stomach cramps. No tent, no ephidrine, no inhalers, nothing. Would like to say that I was super moral, but I think it just did not make sense to dope at the level I was racing. Now, if doping meant a six figure, multi-year contract I would have a harder time staying moral. Not sure that I would have done it, but definitely would give it some thought.

Sensible and reasoned response. One thing though, caffeine isn't banned!

 

[momotaro]

I thought if you took caffeine in pill form it became illegal about 10 years ago...? I don't know. It gave me stomach problems anyway, so it was not worth the modest gains. Everything except for real food (bananas, sandwiches, etc) gave me gut rot... I was as pure as fresh snow!

Anywayz, nice memories.... Every aspiring North American amateur should do a summer in Ghent before they set their eyes on the Pro Tour. As much for the competition as for a taste of the hard life of being a pro cyclist. Just make sure you can win consistently cat 1 at the local level first otherwise it is too discouraging.

 

[GreggGermer]

You're the one who hold yourself out to be this pro rider who was held back by the scourge of doping though no one ever offered you drugs . It wasn't even on the radar for someone at your level. It's no different to a random cat 3 writing it. I mean, cool, I didn't use drugs either and neither did my cat 4 housemate. I did have a doctor tell me what worked and what didn't once, and a rider offer to show me how to inject. 'Just for vitamins'. I didn't dope, even though I was given the option. Of course, it would have made no sense to put my health at risk because I wasn't at that level where the reward is super-high, so I am in no position to get self-righteous about this and criticise dopers too harshly and claim I had all these things taken away from me by them. Same applies to you.

Seriously? Why did you quit then? Because of the scourge of drugs you never even saw?

No one ever came up to me and said "Hey, you need to be on drugs, go talk to X." That is true, but to say it was outside of my realm and to compare where I was to that of a cat. 3 is just ridiculous.

Were there drugs within the walls of the team apartment I lived in, YES ... Were teammates on the pro teams I rode for ex dopers, YES ... Did I ever see the signs of doping around me, YES (direct, real evidence, the stuff I can't brush it off). I knew exactly who I could approach, knew the costs of getting EPO, what ways guys did their preparation. It's not hard to see or hear these things. I saw guys take a 14 day break from racing and come back and ride in the front group, often bumping me from the list of riders selected for particular races. I saw team mates do injections (legal? maybe, but most just said it was iron or Vit. B or said nothing). I was tested only once in my career and at the same race another rider tested positive, but he was left off on a technicality.

Just cause I wasn't in some Italian or Belgian team with a set program, doctors and directors pushing me to do drugs doesn't mean I wasn't tempted, didn't think about, give doping consideration at times.

I just got done with Tyler's book yesterday ... even for someone who was on the edge of the inside of pro cycling ... WOW ... I knew it was bad, but I guess years of telling myself it wasn't THAT bad to give myself some hope, but man, it was as bad as my imagination.

Sorry Realist, but your wrong, doping did affect my carrer ... it's a complicated story that I will delve into one of these days this winter if I find the time.

 

[esafosfina]

I didn't dope in part to talent and thanks to a freakishly high VO2max... I saw many things, was offered many things, but declined having made an informed decision not to follow a path of what I deemed self-destruction. I look back now and I really do wonder 'what if?' But, I won some good races, made a bit of cash... clean.

I would never judge friends and team-mates that chose another path... ethically and morally they have to live with themselves.

And yes, I was pro at the highest of levels.

 

[GreggGermer]

And yes, I was pro at the highest of levels.

Glad to hear your story. Since I wrote my piece I have heard from others who choose not to dope. Had some interesting conversations and learned I was not alone ... that made me very happy to know.

 

[esafosfina]

Likewise GG... I don't get on here often but I have read with interest, and some admiration, your posts. I think there's a few of us left out there somewhere!