Why it DOES matter that Lance goes down.

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Apr 7, 2009
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Sanitiser said:
When you see advertisements like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ph6Gd2Cg4gc the wider public needs to realize that not only has Lance exploited cycling but cancer sufferers and their families as well to make himself and Nike a buck.

That makes him worse than any other doper.
You honestly can't say that this isn't a great advertisement. It gets the point accross and really makes you think. And think about it if you are some guy/gal with cancer sitting in a Chemo ward. All you really know is that Lance had cancer and came back to win the Tour. You don't think that it would give you hope?

The Lance haters want him to be a messiah. He's not. Did he dope? Yeah (most of them were during the 90's and early 2000's). He just didn't get caught for whatever reason. But he played the system and if he got rich, so be it. Look at how many losers are in the NBA and NFL. Guys making millions and millions of dollars that can't make a complete sentence in an interview - and blow their money on girls, cars and houses.

Maybe people believing in something is just as important as 'where all the money' went.
 
Oct 25, 2010
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mwbyrd said:
So you don't think he trained his **** off to win the TdF? Or was it just the dope?
That's what makes it so bad for us guys who've raced at a high level. We DO know how tough it is. What you sacrifice, what kind of work you do, what you suffer just so you can pedal a bike faster than others. And you wonder why some of your compatriots would do what they did. You feel sad and mad at the same time. Because you thought they were willing to risk failure too.

But they weren't. They broke the rules of fair play. They crapped on the sport and us.
 

flicker

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Aug 17, 2009
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BotanyBay said:
And you don't think going to school and having the other kids call your dad a cheater is humiliating and distressing?

Bottom line, is that they are both "broken" in ways that are very similar.
You are right and you can include, Basso, Vino,Landis,Valverde, Roger Clemons, Mark McGuire ad infiditum in these catagories. Even the wife of the drug Lord in Traffic.

People make bad chOices+their children pay for their trangressions.
 
Jan 20, 2011
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BotanyBay said:
You don't see a psycological / behavioral / deceptive actions link between Tiger and Lance? Narcissistic personality disorder, etc?

I think these two guys would have a LOT to talk about while sitting in the same 12-step meeting.
Okay let me play just to shut this argument down once and for all.
Differences:
-Tiger loved his father, Lance hated his and any other father figure in his life.
-Tiger was pretty much a loner in his youth and from what I understand Lance was quite popular because he was a jock from the start. I would say Tiger's overcompensation and womanising would come from this basis while Lance was doing what always came naturally.
-I would say Tiger is an introvert and Lance is an extrovert.
-Regarding sponsorship I think Tiger knew he was always Nike's lackey however Lance could only think of himself as Nike's 'partner'.

Similarities:
-Both wanted to stick it to the 'system' Tiger because he was black\asian and Lance because he felt he was poor.
-This included using the same technique of reading hatemail, negative opinions etc of themselves to psych themselves up. But then this maybe a common technique anyway.
-Both were pushed into the athletic system by their parents. Once again common.
 
Oct 25, 2010
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mwbyrd said:
You honestly can't say that this isn't a great advertisement. It gets the point accross and really makes you think. And think about it if you are some guy/gal with cancer sitting in a Chemo ward. All you really know is that Lance had cancer and came back to win the Tour. You don't think that it would give you hope?

The Lance haters want him to be a messiah. He's not. Did he dope? Yeah (most of them were during the 90's and early 2000's). He just didn't get caught for whatever reason. But he played the system and if he got rich, so be it. Look at how many losers are in the NBA and NFL. Guys making millions and millions of dollars that can't make a complete sentence in an interview - and blow their money on girls, cars and houses.

Maybe people believing in something is just as important as 'where all the money' went.
I work in the field. Here's why it's a BADvertisement. We call this "shooting a fish in a barrel" advertising. When you've got no game of your own, you go to the bottom of the deck and deal cards from there. You play the sympathy card. The Cancer card. The "I'm so sad" card (if you're tiger).

There is a saying... You can invite 200 photographers to photograph a hanging. And they'll take 200 Pulitzer Prize-winning shots.
It's such an extreme situation, all you have to do is set-up, take the shot and go home. The photographer was not the genius. There was no genius.

One of my teachers called it F-U advertising. Where you insult the intelligence and emotions of your audience to provoke their emotions. And you get a reaction simply because you crossed the line. You get press. The ad itself gets press. And to many, that's fine with them. But you've then lowered the bar of advertising. And you've lowered yourself.

Viral marketing is nothing new. It existed long before the internet. The techniques have not changed. But this kind of viral marketing is "I've got no game".
 
Oct 25, 2010
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Sanitiser said:
Okay let me play just to shut this argument down once and for all.
Differences:
-Tiger loved his father, Lance hated his and any other father figure in his life.
-Tiger was pretty much a loner in his youth and from what I understand Lance was quite popular because he was a jock from the start. I would say Tiger's overcompensation and womanising would come from this basis while Lance was doing what always came naturally.
-I would say Tiger is an introvert and Lance is an extrovert.
-Regarding sponsorship I think Tiger knew he was always Nike's lackey however Lance could only think of himself as Nike's 'partner'.

Similarities:
-Both wanted to stick it to the 'system' Tiger because he was black\asian and Lance because he felt he was poor.
-This included using the same technique of reading hatemail, negative opinions etc of themselves to psych themselves up. But then this maybe a common technique anyway.
-Both were pushed into the athletic system by their parents. Once again common.
You don't get messed-up like Tiger is, unless there's been some abuse during childhood. And the same goes for Armstrong.
 
Oct 25, 2010
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flicker said:
You are right and you can include, Basso, Vino,Landis,Valverde, Roger Clemons, Mark McGuire ad infiditum in these catagories. Even the wife of the drug Lord in Traffic.

People make bad chOices+their children pay for their trangressions.
Traffic. An excellent film and excellent example.

And if you loved Traffic, see Syriana.
 

flicker

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Aug 17, 2009
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BotanyBay said:
You don't get messed-up like Tiger is, unless there's been some abuse during childhood. And the same goes for Armstrong.
You know damn well bad things happened around Lance as a child. All that is hidden in his books except that he says he hates his fathers. I think that is why he is so joined and overprotective of his Mom. From my point of view and experiences I totally understand it. That is why I have compassion for Lance the grown man.
Syriana is disjointed like all wars and money business combined but I loved it. A very true film.
 
Jan 20, 2011
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I'd say Tiger was more abused than Lance. Tiger's childhood and early teenager years revolved around his father building a routine of just school and golf. No friends, no other activities etc. A pretty sad life and when he tasted the fame and success he went crazy.

Lance's demons it seems to me were his own making or fed to him by his mother that the world was against them. But as a teenager he was a jock, earning good money, driving a corvette and probably could get any girl he wanted.

I mean Tiger settled for a very pretty but down to earth au-pair while Kirsten was probably a cheerleader. I mean even the mistresses Tiger had some of them were quite homely. Pure numbers.
While Lance since his divorce had been going out with celebrities just to show he could have his way with them.
 
Sep 21, 2010
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[Haven't been following this thread but in response to the OP...]

It matters to me that LA is shown up to all for what he is. I struggle with the adulation he continues to enjoy, especially here in Oz.

If it takes jail time to convince everyone that's Ok with me.
 
Nov 24, 2010
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what do people want to happen to Lance and why?

WHAT:
Novitzky to prove the doping leading to
USADA being obligated to deliver a sanction and that the press the world over have this info
In retirement, Lance not being able to compete in WADA controlled sports
His public image takes a huge dive
His earning capacity also takes a huge dive

Any criminal activity found by Novitzky will be a bonus

WHY:
possibly weakening the peloton omerta
Reducing the risk of Neo Pros being introduced to boosting
What goes around comes around: payback for Greg, Betsy, Frankie, Mike, David, Paul, SCA and other entities I cannot think of at the moment. Please expand the list?

cheers
 
Jul 14, 2009
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BotanyBay said:
That's what makes it so bad for us guys who've raced at a high level. We DO know how tough it is. What you sacrifice, what kind of work you do, what you suffer just so you can pedal a bike faster than others. And you wonder why some of your compatriots would do what they did. You feel sad and mad at the same time. Because you thought they were willing to risk failure too.

But they weren't. They broke the rules of fair play. They crapped on the sport and us.
.exception alert. I have raced and trained w many elite. Lance is a mutant..period. I have seen young guys that shot like a rocket past everybody else that is "paying their dues/doing the work,ect" the first thing you say as a 1 when you get dusted by a 3,4 is the guy is gassed this can't happen. It does. I remember the tri bike racer conversions and when the guy wins on his first weekend it's a fluke, after a month he is an a$$hole..when he races for a big squad (Mercury,Duval,Sierra Nev,CSC) he is just an arrogant butthead. I remember meeting Lance at a bike shop in Ocean Beach Ca, he trained in a speedo. I didn't like him then..nor did I like Molina,Tinley or Sousa. I wish some of the group rides had longer rest stops so once I got there I could explain in detail how much I didn't like those tri clowns. Lance was on a fast track way before there was a big public forum for hate. Eddie B didn't choose him for his racing skills..the guy could suffer. I don't know him he is probably a ***..but from the start he was flying..seeing what he has done is a blur..there is a little heartbreak of seeing guys like Jeff Peirce, Klasna, Hegg,Palennetti.Horner,Levi ,Rogers and others and knowing that Lance was a little better and now he is getting slammed for being a over the top perfect pretty boy and sure he is arrogant but aside he is fast..little did I know one of the fastest ever.
 

flicker

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Aug 17, 2009
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GoneWithTailWind said:
[Haven't been following this thread but in response to the OP...]

It matters to me that LA is shown up to all for what he is. I struggle with the adulation he continues to enjoy, especially here in Oz.

If it takes jail time to convince everyone that's Ok with me.
OK lets' hang em high( LANCE)just like a Sergio Leone movie.

My question is and always has been how does that end doping in sports or cheating in any other aspects of life.

OK lets crucify, or drown the witch. Does it change anything in life or sport?

Or does it just give the people who hate, for good or bad reasons a reason to gloat and defile the witch?

By that I mean Armstrong, his managers, business associates, team mates(present and past) and cycling?

Is it setting an example for clean and ethical sport. Or is it a witch hunt?
 
Oct 25, 2010
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fatandfast said:
.exception alert. I have raced and trained w many elite. Lance is a mutant..period. I have seen young guys that shot like a rocket past everybody else that is "paying their dues/doing the work,ect" the first thing you say as a 1 when you get dusted by a 3,4 is the guy is gassed this can't happen. It does. I remember the tri bike racer conversions and when the guy wins on his first weekend it's a fluke, after a month he is an a$$hole..when he races for a big squad (Mercury,Duval,Sierra Nev,CSC) he is just an arrogant butthead. I remember meeting Lance at a bike shop in Ocean Beach Ca, he trained in a speedo. I didn't like him then..nor did I like Molina,Tinley or Sousa. I wish some of the group rides had longer rest stops so once I got there I could explain in detail how much I didn't like those tri clowns. Lance was on a fast track way before there was a big public forum for hate. Eddie B didn't choose him for his racing skills..the guy could suffer. I don't know him he is probably a ***..but from the start he was flying..seeing what he has done is a blur..there is a little heartbreak of seeing guys like Jeff Peirce, Klasna, Hegg,Palennetti.Horner,Levi ,Rogers and others and knowing that Lance was a little better and now he is getting slammed for being a over the top perfect pretty boy and sure he is arrogant but aside he is fast..little did I know one of the fastest ever.
I'm willing to bet that we've crossed paths on PCH.
 
Apr 9, 2009
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BotanyBay said:
Traffic. An excellent film and excellent example.

And if you loved Traffic, see Syriana.
And "Requiem for a Dream." That flick shows how Lance is going to end up...
 
Jun 15, 2009
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Dallas_ said:
what do people want to happen to Lance and why?
I want the truth because truth matters. You don't console cancer victims by telling them a lie. You don't peddle empathy to victims when you're a psycopath.
I want a transparent process that is universally acclaimed afterwards as having been honest and truthful. If we see a process where justice obviously hasn't been served, because technicalities, money and greed won the day, it's demeaning to us all, as individuals, as people who care, as a society.

Now, if he's innocent, fine. If he's guilty, --edited by mod--. That's all.
 
Jan 20, 2011
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fatandfast said:
.exception alert. I have raced and trained w many elite. Lance is a mutant..period. I have seen young guys that shot like a rocket past everybody else that is "paying their dues/doing the work,ect" the first thing you say as a 1 when you get dusted by a 3,4 is the guy is gassed this can't happen. It does. I remember the tri bike racer conversions and when the guy wins on his first weekend it's a fluke, after a month he is an a$$hole..when he races for a big squad (Mercury,Duval,Sierra Nev,CSC) he is just an arrogant butthead. I remember meeting Lance at a bike shop in Ocean Beach Ca, he trained in a speedo. I didn't like him then..nor did I like Molina,Tinley or Sousa. I wish some of the group rides had longer rest stops so once I got there I could explain in detail how much I didn't like those tri clowns. Lance was on a fast track way before there was a big public forum for hate. Eddie B didn't choose him for his racing skills..the guy could suffer. I don't know him he is probably a ***..but from the start he was flying..seeing what he has done is a blur..there is a little heartbreak of seeing guys like Jeff Peirce, Klasna, Hegg,Palennetti.Horner,Levi ,Rogers and others and knowing that Lance was a little better and now he is getting slammed for being a over the top perfect pretty boy and sure he is arrogant but aside he is fast..little did I know one of the fastest ever.
I guess when he hit the Protour or whatever it was called then he must of had his ego smashed into thousands of little pieces.
 

Dr. Maserati

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Jun 19, 2009
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mwbyrd said:
You're opening post is trolling in a way....
No it isn't, it asks a relevant question - but your post above is trolling.

mwbyrd said:
So you don't think he trained his **** off to win the TdF? Or was it just the dope?
Did I say that? No.

Of course has had to train hard - but guess what, so does everyone at that level.
But he also used PEDs and had a hemotoligist as his trainer.

mwbyrd said:
You honestly can't say that this isn't a great advertisement. It gets the point accross and really makes you think. And think about it if you are some guy/gal with cancer sitting in a Chemo ward. All you really know is that Lance had cancer and came back to win the Tour. You don't think that it would give you hope?

The Lance haters want him to be a messiah. He's not. Did he dope? Yeah (most of them were during the 90's and early 2000's). He just didn't get caught for whatever reason. But he played the system and if he got rich, so be it. Look at how many losers are in the NBA and NFL. Guys making millions and millions of dollars that can't make a complete sentence in an interview - and blow their money on girls, cars and houses.

Maybe people believing in something is just as important as 'where all the money' went.
What hope is he giving? If your fortunate enough to survive cancer and take lots of drugs you can be like me?

Well for a guy who says.... "I'm not doing it for them" ....he bagged a lot of cash over Comeback 2.0 and was pretty upset at losing to Contador.


The reason he didn't get caught was he shared some of that wealth with the UCI.
 
Sanitiser said:
I'd say Tiger was more abused than Lance.
I would agree with that. But there are people in sports who had it worse than Tiger. Look at the history of boxing. Look up Ruben Carter. Or if you think he's guilty anyway, look up Matthew Saad Muhammad, Sonny Liston, Cleveland Williams. Many came up during segregation in absolute poverty crime ridden areas of cities, and were then railroaded by a racist system. They lived lives like you saw in the movie Precious.

Or we can just look at cycling. LeMond was sexually abused as a child. I'll take Lance's difficult upbringing over that, any day.
 
Sep 16, 2010
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Mwbyrd- yeah Lance doped mostly in the 90's and early 2000's.

Hmmm those dates are when he raced.

The assumption that every cancer patient in the world looks to LA for inspiration is hard for me to believe.
 
Jan 20, 2011
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Alpe d'Huez said:
I would agree with that. But there are people in sports who had it worse than Tiger. Look at the history of boxing. Look up Ruben Carter. Or if you think he's guilty anyway, look up Matthew Saad Muhammad, Sonny Liston, Cleveland Williams. Many came up during segregation in absolute poverty crime ridden areas of cities, and were then railroaded by a racist system. They lived lives like you saw in the movie Precious.

Or we can just look at cycling. LeMond was sexually abused as a child. I'll take Lance's difficult upbringing over that, any day.
Even his ordeal with cancer could anybody really quantify it against Contador's brain hemorrhage or LeMond's gunshot wounds that he still suffers from?
 
Apr 7, 2009
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MD said:
Mwbyrd- yeah Lance doped mostly in the 90's and early 2000's.

Hmmm those dates are when he raced.

The assumption that every cancer patient in the world looks to LA for inspiration is hard for me to believe.


I'll respond like Sanitiser does...I didn't say every cancer pation in the world looks to LA.

My point is that the first time you see the commercial, it get's you motivated. I thought it was cool. I've been fortunate and haven't had to deal with Cancer in my family. But isn't giving hope a good thing?

Botany said that the commecials was basically shooting fish in a barrell kind of ad. I can see his point, especially since he's in the business. But what is an ad supposed to do? It's supposed to tug on the heartstrings, get you to think about something, do something (in this case Spend $$). In my opinion, I think it did it's job. Maybe I'm the only one because I'm not equating it with 'Lance the fraud'. Would it had made a difference if it the commercial had Michael Jordan or Cal Ripkin in it? No, because the message would have been the same.
 
Apr 7, 2009
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BotanyBay said:
That's what makes it so bad for us guys who've raced at a high level. We DO know how tough it is. What you sacrifice, what kind of work you do, what you suffer just so you can pedal a bike faster than others. And you wonder why some of your compatriots would do what they did. You feel sad and mad at the same time. Because you thought they were willing to risk failure too.

But they weren't. They broke the rules of fair play. They crapped on the sport and us.
Botany, this is my favorite post by you and I'll tell you why. It wasn't/isn't directed at one person. It's directed at the system.

But I bet you sleep well at night, probably make more than a measily 30k a year and sleep well at night. And realize that yeah, it would have been cool to be big time, but I'm doing OK, Life isn't so bad.
 
Jan 27, 2010
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Oldman said:
I never saw that commercial before now. ...
Wow, hearing LA spit out more lies in that premeditated video with real oncology and other disabled people makes me want to vomit.

What is wrong with that guy. How despicable.

And Nike, after all the more recent allegations...shame on you.

NW
 
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