Wiggins 2009 tour he myoglobin

Oct 27, 2012
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New to the forum, saw this on another site yesterday. Can anyone shed any light on the validity of the following:

Bradley's result from the second rest day in 2009 was suspicious. Hemoglobin should fall during the Tour but his rose. Here's what anti doping expert Michael Ashenden had to say about Floyd Landis' hemoglobin results from the 2006 Tour:

"Going from 15.5 to 16.1 (in hemoglobin) is not that unusual when not competing," Ashenden said by phone from Australia. "But it is very unusual to see an increase after a hard week of cycling. You’d expect it to be the reverse. You’d expect that to fall in a clean athlete. An increase like this in the midst of the Tour de France would be highly, highly unlikely.

"There’s nothing where I could point to one value and say, ‘This guy definitely doped.’ But it raises red flags for me. I would definitely recommend to anti-doping authorities that an athlete presenting these values should be target-tested for blood doping."

Wiggins' hemoglobin result rose from about 14.4 on the first rest day to about 15.2 on the second rest day. Highly highly unlikely in a clean athlete.
 
Mar 31, 2010
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you can increase your hemaeglobine level by taking lots of iron preprates or perhaps even through injection(legal then). on a restday especially this will have some effect. his hemaeglobine didn't increase like armstrong from 12-15 during the tour 2009. THAT is suspicious
 
Ryo Hazuki said:
you can increase your hemaeglobine level by taking lots of iron preprates or perhaps even through injection(legal then). on a restday especially this will have some effect. his hemaeglobine didn't increase like armstrong from 12-15 during the tour 2009. THAT is suspicious
Naturally Hämaglobin has to fall over the course of a three week effort.
A little iron won't do it.
But yea he is british so he 's clean, i know
 
Mar 31, 2010
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Bavarianrider said:
Naturally Hämaglobin has to fall over the course of a three week effort.
A little iron won't do it.
But yea he is british so he 's clean, i know
I'm not tlaking about a little iron,. but a lot and it actually increases your hemaeglobine a lot
 
Oct 21, 2012
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Interesting. Can we see your source? It would be great to have a definitive article/graph that shows his haemoglobin rose.
 
Oct 27, 2012
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Ryo Hazuki said:
you can increase your hemaeglobine level by taking lots of iron preprates or perhaps even through injection(legal then). on a restday especially this will have some effect. his hemaeglobine didn't increase like armstrong from 12-15 during the tour 2009. THAT is suspicious
Why does ashenden not realise this? He is an expert after all.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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Bavarianrider said:
Naturally Hämaglobin has to fall over the course of a three week effort.
A little iron won't do it.
But yea he is british so he 's clean, i know
nothing to see here.

 
Sep 29, 2012
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Ryo Hazuki said:
I'm not tlaking about a little iron,. but a lot and it actually increases your hemaeglobine a lot
Please explain the timeline of iron taking and subsequent rise in Hgb as it pertains to a TdF rider and the rest day spike in Hgb as evidenced by the blood value datasets JV has released.

You do realise Hgb dying is not the cause of the diminishing Hgb - it's plasma expansion that leads to Hgb falling (g/dL). The reason Hgb is falling is because the body takes a long time to catch up to the plasma expansion. And this is not necessarily because the body is iron deficient, but more likely because the body's natural "healing" is suppressed due to the ongoing phsyical stress of the GT. It doesn't matter how much Fe you take - if there is not enough EPO triggering enough retic production, no additional new Hgb are going to be formed, and your Hgb is not going to spike such a significant amount in one hit.

As I say: if you can show the timeline of Fe ingestion to Hgb production, I welcome your explanation. But Fe is not magical fairy dust, there's a physiological process at work that must be satisfied for the result observed.
 
Mar 19, 2010
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Ryo Hazuki said:
I'm not tlaking about a little iron,. but a lot and it actually increases your hemaeglobine a lot
Iron reserves take weeks and months build, no from one moment to the next.

Given the risk of hemochromatosis, posting such stuff on a forum is highly irresponsible.
 
Jul 9, 2010
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I don't know how they arrive at those numbers, but there should also be a margin of error on each data point. Without those, you can only speculate. And given only four points, it's near impossible to make an accurate fit to any theoretical line...
 
Sep 29, 2012
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arjanh said:
I don't know how they arrive at those numbers, but there should also be a margin of error on each data point. Without those, you can only speculate. And given only four points, it's near impossible to make an accurate fit to any theoretical line...
1. Either the ABP is accurate and can be used to track dopers.
2. Or it's a complete and utter waste of space, useful for PR purposes only.

I say #2, but am prepared to poke the unlikely datapoints repeatedly because they squeal nicely.
 
Jul 9, 2010
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Dear Wiggo said:
1. Either the ABP is accurate and can be used to track dopers.
2. Or it's a complete and utter waste of space, useful for PR purposes only.

I say #2, but am prepared to poke the unlikely datapoints repeatedly because they squeal nicely.
I dearly hope the ABP is more than just a few values for each test. But like I said, I don't know 1) how they come to those numbers from a blood test, nor 2) what indicators they look at. For instance, do they measure blood pressure?

All I'm saying is that the data points mentioned in this thread are insufficient to draw any conclusion from.
 
Sep 29, 2012
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arjanh said:
I dearly hope the ABP is more than just a few values for each test. But like I said, I don't know 1) how they come to those numbers from a blood test, nor 2) what indicators they look at. For instance, do they measure blood pressure?

All I'm saying is that the data points mentioned in this thread are insufficient to draw any conclusion from.
They do close to a CBC but focus on retic, Hgb and off-score for analysis - which is silly coz off-score is calculated based on Hgb and retics and almost impossible to trigger scrutiny.

There's a study by Zorilov or whatever his name is (UCI doctor), and you can find more info from the wada site on the ABP and how tests should be conducted, etc.

Trust me, it's a PR exercise at best. As a tool, it's like a finely tuned laser cutting tool, but if you use it with a blind fold on in a darkened room, the results are going to be far from acceptable.

The process is full of subjective interpretation, regardless of the blood results.
 
Fester said:
Iron reserves take weeks and months build, no from one moment to the next.

Given the risk of hemochromatosis, posting such stuff on a forum is highly irresponsible.
Yes, very good of you to post that bit of information.
My sister had hemochromatosis, not sure how she got it, but it was a problem. Ended up in the hospital for a short stay then had to have blood removed at periodic intervals. Eventualy all returned to normal
 

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