Will Contador Keep his 2011 Results? (If he is found guilty by CAS)

[M Sport]

Edited by M Sport.

This was a reply in the Giro RR thread that wasn't meant for the clinic (got moved here by a mod). And for the record this question "Will Contador Keep his 2011 Results? (If he is found guilty by CAS)" is from the moderator, not me.

 

[Cimber]

Winner right there.

btw are we picking for winner on the road, or in the record books in a few months time?

Road. Though I reckon the battle for 2.nd place will be fierce (0;

 

[The Hitch]

Winner right there.

btw are we picking for winner on the road, or in the record books in a few months time?

It will be slightly more difficult to take a grand tour away from someone who did not test positive in that particular grand tour (unless he does test positive again), than it was to take a Tour of Romandie crown away from Valverde.

 

[will10]

It will be slightly more difficult to take a grand tour away from someone who did not test positive in that particular grand tour (unless he does test positive again), than it was to take a Tour of Romandie crown away from Valverde.

Why? If found guilty he shouldn't have been racing the Giro (as well as Leon, Algarve, Catalunya etc) and should have those results removed?

 

[El Pistolero]

Who cares, if Contador wins this he won it forever.

 

[Havetts]

Well, its quite stupid that only due to the RFEC possibly not making the right decision (pretty obviously why) that he wins the Giro while he shouldnt be allowed to ride it..

 

[The Hitch]

Why? If found guilty he shouldn't have been racing the Giro (as well as Leon, Algarve, Catalunya etc) and should have those results removed?

I said it would be difficult not unfair.

They never took away any of Pitis big wins in the 2006-09 period did they. They just took away the easy ones from 2010. There are some riders who have tested positive in a particular gt and got to keep their results. It would be controversial

But I do think it would be unfair as well. They wanted him banned, they should have banned him earlier. Or they can give him a 2 year ban starting later. Letting someone do that Giro, those mountains, put that pain on themselves, that strain on the body, making his teammates kill themselves for him, sacrifice big uci points for Contador, and then when hes crossed the line, like a 10 year old saying, na na na na na, it doesnt count anyway. Not a gentleman way to act.

 

[Archibald]

Who cares, if Contador wins this he won it forever.

nope.

here's to CAS ruling him out before the start and wiping his results out since (and including) last year's tour.

 

[Publicus]

Well, its quite stupid that only due to the RFEC possibly not making the right decision (pretty obviously why) that he wins the Giro while he shouldnt be allowed to ride it..

Your post could be a very slippery slope to the Clinic.

EDIT: As could Archibald's.

 

[Havetts]

Your post could be a very slippery slope to the Clinic.

I guess so, dont know how to put it different without it becoming clinic material, if it possible at all.

If mods feel the post is inappropiate for the forum, feel free to remove it .

 

[El Pistolero]

nope.

here's to CAS ruling him out before the start and wiping his results out since (and including) last year's tour.

He'll still have won it and the guy coming second will always know he didn't win

And so will eveyone who watched it. There's no glory to be had to win a GT in the bed.

 

[hrotha]

Why? If found guilty he shouldn't have been racing the Giro (as well as Leon, Algarve, Catalunya etc) and should have those results removed?

Actually I'm not sure he'd have those results stripped off. Valverde's case was quite exceptional, since he kind of played the system (which Contador isn't doing).

 

[Jamsque]

But I do think it would be unfair as well. They wanted him banned, they should have banned him earlier. Or they can give him a 2 year ban starting later. Letting someone do that Giro, those mountains, put that pain on themselves, that strain on the body, making his teammates kill themselves for him, sacrifice big uci points for Contador, and then when hes crossed the line, like a 10 year old saying, na na na na na, it doesnt count anyway. Not a gentleman way to act.

Hey, guess what else is unfair. Doping. If Contador goes down he'll lose the Giro title he is almost certain to win next month, and he will deserve no sympathy whatsoever.

 

[boomcie]

I said it would be difficult not unfair.

They never took away any of Pitis big wins in the 2006-09 period did they. They just took away the easy ones from 2010. There are some riders who have tested positive in a particular gt and got to keep their results. It would be controversial

But I do think it would be unfair as well. They wanted him banned, they should have banned him earlier. Or they can give him a 2 year ban starting later. Letting someone do that Giro, those mountains, put that pain on themselves, that strain on the body, making his teammates kill themselves for him, sacrifice big uci points for Contador, and then when hes crossed the line, like a 10 year old saying, na na na na na, it doesnt count anyway. Not a gentleman way to act.

Damn it Hitch, that does not make sense at all... Taking away his wins from 2006-2010 and not letting him race in the remainder of 2010 and the entirity of 2011 would mean a six (6!) year ban. How do you justify that? They just gave him a 2 year suspension going back to the first of January 2010, which means all his 2010 results are now void.

It is to be expected that Contador's suspencion will date back to the Tour de France, making all his results after that null and void, including the Giro.

 

[hrotha]

Do we have any precedents aside from Valverde? You know, of a standard case?

 

[Publicus]

Hey, guess what else is unfair. Doping. If Contador goes down he'll lose the Giro title he is almost certain to win next month, and he will deserve no sympathy whatsoever.

Or AC doesn't win and this is a moot point. Scarponi, Nibali et al could be the answer to this particularly sticky situation.

Do we have any precedents aside from Valverde? You know, of a standard case?

I can envision a situation where he keeps his results from 2011, and races at the start of the 2013 season. Suspended for the remainder of 2011, all of 2012 and tack the original period post Tour. I think that's in excess of 24 months (if my math is right).

 

[El Pistolero]

Hey, guess what else is unfair. Doping. If Contador goes down he'll lose the Giro title he is almost certain to win next month, and he will deserve no sympathy whatsoever.

2010 Ivan Basso (2nd win) Italy Liquigas
92 2009 Denis Menchov Russia Rabobank
91 2008 Alberto Contador Spain Astana
90 2007 Danilo Di Luca Italy Liquigas
89 2006 Ivan Basso Italy Team CSC
88 2005 Paolo Savoldelli (2nd win) Italy Discovery Channel
87 2004 Damiano Cunego Italy Saeco
86 2003 Gilberto Simoni (2nd win) Italy Saeco
85 2002 Paolo Savoldelli Italy Index-Alexia
84 2001 Gilberto Simoni Italy Lampre-Daikin
83 2000 Stefano Garzelli Italy Mercatone Uno
82 1999 Ivan Gotti (2nd win) Italy Polti
81 1998 Marco Pantani Italy Mercatone Uno
80 1997 Ivan Gotti Italy Saeco
79 1996 Pavel Tonkov Russia Ceramiche Panaria-Vinavil
78 1995 Tony Rominger Switzerland Mapei-GB-Latexco
77 1994 Eugeni Berzin Russia Gewiss-Ballan

We're talking about the Giro d'Italia here.

 

[hrotha]

That's not comparable, Pistolero. We should be looking for precents of riders who were provisionally suspended, then cleared and allowed to ride, got results while being legally allowed to ride, and were later suspended by CAS. I can only think of Valjavec who is in a similar position (will he lose his Cinturón de Mallorca results?), but I don't remember any particular precedent to see how it was dealt with, and I'm too lazy to check the rules (which are probably vague anyway).

 

[El Pistolero]

That's not comparable, Pistolero. We should be looking for precents of riders who were provisionally suspended, then cleared and allowed to ride, got results while being legally allowed to ride, and were later suspended by CAS. I can only think of Valjavec who is in a similar position (will he lose his Cinturón de Mallorca results?), but I don't remember any particular precedent to see how it was dealt with, and I'm too lazy to check the rules (which are probably vague anyway).

I'm talking about the unfair part

Getting your win in the courts and then never be able to repeat it is a joke and everyone knows it. Don't think there's anyone that thinks Pereiro is a real Tour winner(Guess Klöden was the best to not test positive there). If Contador wouldn't have won a GT after 2007 he'd be a bit of a joke as well.

Yes, it's unfair, but if everyone is fighting with the same weapons the best still wins anyway.

 

[The Hitch]

Hey, guess what else is unfair. Doping. If Contador goes down he'll lose the Giro title he is almost certain to win next month, and he will deserve no sympathy whatsoever.

Yeah he doped. And more importantly he got caught. So he should get a suspension. A 2 year ban.

Tricking him into riding the Giro go through that immense pain, then turning round and saying "Suuuuuucker!!!!", does not fit the crime.

And what of his team. All those riders who did not get caught, who are going to go to the Giro, go through immense pain for the team, leave it all on the line.

And in the end get nothing. No prize money, no World Tour points, nothing.

What did they ever do?

If they want to punish him ban him now OR after. Then he can get his just 2 years, and not a far harsher punishement.

 

[boomcie]

That's not comparable, Pistolero. We should be looking for precents of riders who were provisionally suspended, then cleared and allowed to ride, got results while being legally allowed to ride, and were later suspended by CAS. I can only think of Valjavec who is in a similar position (will he lose his Cinturón de Mallorca results?), but I don't remember any particular precedent to see how it was dealt with, and I'm too lazy to check the rules (which are probably vague anyway).

I'm sure he'll lose the Giro if (when!) his suspension is confirmed. How is that not the most logical thing? He made it so that he can ride again, because he might be innocent. But when he will be found guilty again, one will also have to conclude that he had no right to compete. Thus he will lose all the results he obtained in purgatory.

 

[El Pistolero]

Yeah he doped. And more importantly he got caught. So he should get a suspension. A 2 year ban.

Tricking him into riding the Giro go through that immense pain, then turning round and saying "Suuuuuucker!!!!", does not fit the crime.

And what of his team. All those riders who did not get caught, who are going to go to the Giro, go through immense pain for the team, leave it all on the line.

And in the end get nothing. No prize money, no World Tour points, nothing.

What did they ever do?

If they want to punish him ban him now OR after. Then he can get his just 2 years, and not a far harsher punishement.

How long did Ricco, Di Luca, Vinokourov, etc get? 2 years for Clen would be a joke if some get free a lot sooner for CERA and other stuff. 1 year sounds about right. But ok, that clinic stuff.

 

[boomcie]

Yeah he doped. And more importantly he got caught. So he should get a suspension. A 2 year ban.

Tricking him into riding the Giro go through that immense pain, then turning round and saying "Suuuuuucker!!!!", does not fit the crime.

And what of his team. All those riders who did not get caught, who are going to go to the Giro, go through immense pain for the team, leave it all on the line.

And in the end get nothing. No prize money, no World Tour points, nothing.

What did they ever do?

If they want to punish him ban him now OR after. Then he can get his just 2 years, and not a far harsher punishement.

Who tricked him? He did himself. He's the one that wanted to race and made it happen. Believe me, he knows the pitfalls.

 

[hrotha]

I'm sure he'll lose the Giro if (when!) his suspension is confirmed. How is that not the most logical thing? He made it so that he can ride again, because he might be innocent. But when he will be found guilty again, one will also have to conclude that he had no right to compete. Thus he will lose all the results he obtained in purgatory.

This isn't about the logic, this is about the rules.

On the other hand, it could be argued that an official governing body cleared him to ride, so it's not his fault if that decision is later found to be wrong and he shouldn't pay for it.

 

[The Hitch]

Damn it Hitch, that does not make sense at all... Taking away his wins from 2006-2010 and not letting him race in the remainder of 2010 and the entirity of 2011 would mean a six (6!) year ban. How do you justify that? They just gave him a 2 year suspension going back to the first of January 2010, which means all his 2010 results are now void.

Your the one not making any sence.

Valverde was caught in 2006 so if your opinions were more consistant you would ask why he didnt have his 2006 and 7 results taken away. FW, LBL, Vuelta podium.

Because after all you want Contador to get strictly 2 years from the positive. but you say it was ok to let Valverdes ban start 4 years later.

If Valverdes ban can start late why cant Contadors?