Winning TDF vs being the best rider

[Valv.Piti]

Re: Re:

The Tour is about being the best overall rider. You have the right to dislike Froome, but you can't deny he isn't the most complete rider in the peloton atm. For sure, Sagan is the most entertaining one and really allround too, but Froome can TT, ride on the flat, riding in the wind and climb like a true boss.

For sure he can't sprint, like Sagan, but i think a Tour de France should be about the combination climbing + TT'ing + handle the flat stages well. Without being a decent climber (let's say among the best 10 climbers in a race), you should not win a race like the Tour imo.

Sure you can:
-Better climber? Froome
-Better TTer? Froome
-Better sprinter? Sagan
-Better cobbles rider? Sagan
-Better at short climbs? Sagan
-Better at medium climbs? Froome
Just because the Tour/GTs weigh Froome strengths more than Sagan's does not mean he is the better overall rider.

Froome can be exceptional on short climbs on his day - Mur 2015 probably is the best example. I know thats not necessarily what you are referring to, but in top form, I say its pretty even on short climbs.

 

[Durden93]

Re: Re:

The Tour is about being the best overall rider. You have the right to dislike Froome, but you can't deny he isn't the most complete rider in the peloton atm. For sure, Sagan is the most entertaining one and really allround too, but Froome can TT, ride on the flat, riding in the wind and climb like a true boss.

For sure he can't sprint, like Sagan, but i think a Tour de France should be about the combination climbing + TT'ing + handle the flat stages well. Without being a decent climber (let's say among the best 10 climbers in a race), you should not win a race like the Tour imo.

Sure you can:
-Better climber? Froome
-Better TTer? Froome
-Better sprinter? Sagan
-Better cobbles rider? Sagan
-Better at short climbs? Sagan
-Better at medium climbs? Froome
Just because the Tour/GTs weigh Froome strengths more than Sagan's does not mean he is the better overall rider.

Froome can be exceptional on short climbs on his day - Mur 2015 probably is the best example. I know thats not necessarily what you are referring to, but in top form, I say its pretty even on short climbs.

Actually I had forgot about the Mur tbh. Was referring to Vuelta type climbs.

 

[Mr.White]

Re:

For 2015: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=30325
For 2010, the best rider is Cancellara and I would say it is not close at all.
2007 indeed deserves a question mark as nobody stands out in that year, but I would say Killer has the best year in 2007.

Well for 2015 the best is Valverde, there's no question mark there.
For 2007 is tight, Di Luca, Evans and Contador are contenders, so Tour winner might be the best, question mark is justified.
For 2010, like I said, it depends how you look at Contador's performance. If you don't count his Tour victory, then there's no contest. But if you count, like I am, then Cancellara might be the best, but I wouldn't say it's not close. Contador had 9 victories, 5 WT level, won Tour, Paris-Nice, Algarve, Castilla y Leon, was second in the Dauphine + 2 stages, 3rd in Fleche Wallonne, 9th in Liege.., pretty good season if you ask me.
Cancellara won 8 races, 6 WT level, he won Flanders/Roubaix double, WC ITT Gold, 2 Tour stages, E3.., also pretty good.
If you look just at the results, their seasons are similar, but I must agree with your opinion that Cancellara was better for one main reason. His level of dominance showed in the most important classics was that reason which sets him apart from Contador or any other rider that year (Gilbert, Nibali, Purito...)

 

[spalco]

I don't even know what the definition of "best" rider would be, but I suppose since the Tour is clearly the most desirable prize on the calendar (if your goal is fame and money), so winning that race would be a reasonable approximation, despite what self declared elite cycling fans might want.

Guys like Valverde, Cancellara, Boonen, Sagan, for all their impressive palmares, probably never made as much money or were as well known worldwide as any Tour de France winner of the last decade (except maybe Sastre)..

 

[Singer01]

Re: Re:

The Tour is about being the best overall rider. You have the right to dislike Froome, but you can't deny he isn't the most complete rider in the peloton atm. For sure, Sagan is the most entertaining one and really allround too, but Froome can TT, ride on the flat, riding in the wind and climb like a true boss.

For sure he can't sprint, like Sagan, but i think a Tour de France should be about the combination climbing + TT'ing + handle the flat stages well. Without being a decent climber (let's say among the best 10 climbers in a race), you should not win a race like the Tour imo.

Sure you can:
-Better climber? Froome
-Better TTer? Froome
-Better sprinter? Sagan
-Better cobbles rider? Sagan
-Better at short climbs? Sagan
-Better at medium climbs? Froome
Just because the Tour/GTs weigh Froome strengths more than Sagan's does not mean he is the better overall rider.

How much time does Sagan take from Froome on the stages he is better at? Seconds? Froome could put 15+ minutes into Sagan in one proper mountain stage.
Also, which short climbs is Sagan better at?

That isn't to say that Sagan isn't a remarkable rider, just to show that i disagree with your reasoning as to why he is better.

 

[Mr.White]

Re: Re:

The Tour is about being the best overall rider. You have the right to dislike Froome, but you can't deny he isn't the most complete rider in the peloton atm. For sure, Sagan is the most entertaining one and really allround too, but Froome can TT, ride on the flat, riding in the wind and climb like a true boss.

For sure he can't sprint, like Sagan, but i think a Tour de France should be about the combination climbing + TT'ing + handle the flat stages well. Without being a decent climber (let's say among the best 10 climbers in a race), you should not win a race like the Tour imo.

Sure you can:
-Better climber? Froome
-Better TTer? Froome
-Better sprinter? Sagan
-Better cobbles rider? Sagan
-Better at short climbs? Sagan
-Better at medium climbs? Froome
Just because the Tour/GTs weigh Froome strengths more than Sagan's does not mean he is the better overall rider.

How much time does Sagan take from Froome on the stages he is better at? Seconds? Froome could put 15+ minutes into Sagan in one proper mountain stage.
Also, which short climbs is Sagan better at?

That isn't to say that Sagan isn't a remarkable rider, just to show that i disagree with your reasoning as to why he is better.

Paterberg!

 

[42x16ss]

Re: Re:

The Tour is about being the best overall rider. You have the right to dislike Froome, but you can't deny he isn't the most complete rider in the peloton atm. For sure, Sagan is the most entertaining one and really allround too, but Froome can TT, ride on the flat, riding in the wind and climb like a true boss.

For sure he can't sprint, like Sagan, but i think a Tour de France should be about the combination climbing + TT'ing + handle the flat stages well. Without being a decent climber (let's say among the best 10 climbers in a race), you should not win a race like the Tour imo.

Sure you can:
-Better climber? Froome
-Better TTer? Froome
-Better sprinter? Sagan
-Better cobbles rider? Sagan
-Better at short climbs? Sagan
-Better at medium climbs? Froome
Just because the Tour/GTs weigh Froome strengths more than Sagan's does not mean he is the better overall rider.

How much time does Sagan take from Froome on the stages he is better at? Seconds? Froome could put 15+ minutes into Sagan in one proper mountain stage.
Also, which short climbs is Sagan better at?

That isn't to say that Sagan isn't a remarkable rider, just to show that i disagree with your reasoning as to why he is better.

Outright power climbs like those in Flanders and Amstel. Very short and steep. Otherwise Froome of course.

I'd probably tip Sagan in short prologues too, especially when they're technical and require explosive power and skill at speed.

 

[robin440]

sagan is savage

 

[BigMac]

Re: Re:

Yes, Sagan is the best rider in the world. No, he doesn't need to win a GT.

I think GT courses should sometimes not be filled with MTFs, to the point that Sagan could win one.

I think some GTs should be about translating so that I have a chance to win one too. It's only fair.

Apples and oranges.

You can do better.