World Politics

[CentralCaliBike]

... Commoners in 17th century and before kept pastures 'in common', they shared it with other shepherds for example. The land was 'free' and 'shared', and they acted quite responsibly because they knew how valuable it was to all of them and their existence. Originally, in Asia, in the rice cultivation agriculture, people were dependent on each other, because of the communal irrigation system that they had to maintain to keep the rice plants watered. The system emerged through cooperation and mutual dependency, and in essence was 'free'. Everyone however chipped (labor/money/time) in to maintain it, because they depended on it.

For more info, check Elinor Ostrom Nobel Prize Winner 2009

Capitalist's tendency to posit man against himself and society, seems to have fostered a culture of individualism and irresponsibility, because everyone - as a consumer - perceives himself of being in control of his life without the need of others for his existence under the motto "If I want it, I can buy it, and when it's mine I can do with it whatever I want"

Sounds very romantic - I tend to find romantic views of history to be far from the truth.

 

[Anonymous]

Sounds very romantic - I tend to find romantic views of history to be far from the truth.

and your view is very 19th century and victorian...

 

[CentralCaliBike]

and your view is very 19th century and victorian...

Edmund Burke was not a Victorian - he had a true view of human nature and the basis for government.

 

[Anonymous]

Edmund Burke was not a Victorian - he had a true view of human nature and the basis for government.

wildly bizarre response...are you now channeling Burke ala Ghost Whisperer...please please follow with quoted study...

 

[fatandfast]

Well, I am not so sure...first off, I think we should have universal care period...same for all...I had it when I lived in Belgium and it was a fantastic system.

That said, I now live in Vermont...we have tried to cover everyone and if you can't get it thru your employer that state pays private companies (blue cross, mvp ect ) to cover you...I guess it is a compromise between public and private ect ect...and it is then based on your income...

So I make about 22,000 a year...and I pay 60 bucks a month...and it actually works pretty well here...both for the state and the private companies...and for me as well. I can afford it, and the private companies are still making money and the state is getting everyone covered.

that might be the way forward for the rest of the country...or maybe not...but it is our system and is going well...

just one snapshot of course....

Am I talking to God? 60 bucks a month on a 22,ooo income? Anybody,everybody would jump for joy for this reality. Look around the rest of the country.We would all love to live with MT bike championships and micro brews that tickle your tastes.Not to mention good skiing just 4 hoors from my apt. Maybe all of us can get a job,full or part time,or even the dole(welfare) in Vermont. What a great place and people and the good health care is 300 dollars cheaper than NY. You do have lots of jobs,don't you? I think your car insurance is half of here also

 

[fatandfast]

my company would be @ 220000 dollars more profitable at your rate,and I would love you for it

 

[CentralCaliBike]

wildly bizarre response...are you now channeling Burke ala Ghost Whisperer...please please follow with quoted study...

Perhaps I could have written a couple of complete sentences to say that I do not consider myself to be Victorian, I would say my political/economic/social viewpoint is closer to Edmund Burke.

 

[Anonymous]

Am I talking to God? 60 bucks a month on a 22,ooo income? Anybody,everybody would jump for joy for this reality. Look around the rest of the country.We would all love to live with MT bike championships and micro brews that tickle your tastes.Not to mention good skiing just 4 hoors from my apt. Maybe all of us can get a job,full or part time,or even the dole(welfare) in Vermont. What a great place and people and the good health care is 300 dollars cheaper than NY. You do have lots of jobs,don't you? I think your car insurance is half of here also

I knew I should probably explian as some nut would jump on it...the fact is this: it is paid on income...make up to 40 grand a year and you pay 250 a month...maybe 300...for a family...

In my case, the government is paying blue cross another 40 bucks to cover me...that is the bottom line.

Listen...the state of Vermont had the balls to tell the private insurance companies you will do this and we will see you make a profit and let you stay here...if you don't like it ....leave...guess what? They stayed...blue cross and mvp...it was and is their choice...of course their profit went way down...but they stayed because they are still making money...

Both can pull out at any time they want...but they still make money...if all 50 states did this....they would still stay...but the problem is this: your politicians are so bought and sold and whorified that they make deals so the same blue cross and mvp can make ten times the money off of YOU...and they ARE...best of luck .

 

[Anonymous]

p.s...don't mean to jump out at you...just the right wing nut jobs out here who defend the absolute stealing going on and then ***** about health care...like it would actually take some precious coin out of their pocket...the reality is VERY different...what I am saying is we are doing it in Vermont and the private companies still want to be here as they are making profit...the point is HOW much...and they decide to still stay...not because they love Vermont or are even based here...they are not...but because the politicians shoved it down their ****ing throat...and big surprise, they still want the profits...

 

[CentralCaliBike]

p.s...don't mean to jump out at you...just the right wing nut jobs out here who defend the absolute stealing going on and then ***** about health care...like it would actually take some precious coin out of their pocket...the reality is VERY different...what I am saying is we are doing it in Vermont and the private companies still want to be here as they are making profit...the point is HOW much...and they decide to still stay...not because they love Vermont or are even based here...they are not...but because the politicians shoved it down their ****ing throat...and big surprise, they still want the profits...

Are Vermonters required participate in the insurance?

Do you get to keep your doctor - or do you have to go to the one the insurance company mandates - does your doctor choose your medical care or does the insurance?

Also, where does Vermont rank in comparison to other states in taxation rates?

 

[Anonymous]

and notice this: why don't you hear such a private/government backed plan such as Vermont's being discussed now anywhere in the national media or by folks in congress besides the Vermonters? It is working here incredibly well...and the state is doing fine financially compared to almost all others...even paying for a dreaded "social'" plan...you won't hear it on a national level as this country is just a bought and sold thing...for god sake, the guy who passed this plan here is a republican...who ever hears about this?

 

[Anonymous]

Are Vermonters required participate in the insurance?

Do you get to keep your doctor - or do you have to go to the one the insurance company mandates - does your doctor choose your medical care or does the insurance?

Also, is Vermont compatible to other states in taxation rates?

ok...yeah, you pick your Doctor...we have two companies here...you can go anywhere you want as ALL of the doctors are pretty much covered by both companies...it works as we are a small state...but it is a model and is working...without bankrupting anything via state coffers...

 

[Anonymous]

sorry, did not answer your first question...Nope, noone is required to do anything...no fines for not doing it...

Personally, I would like to see fines as the folks who don't have insurance are going to hit the emergency rooms over an ear ache...and it makes it more expensive for all...but NOPE...we don't.

In the year and a half we have been doing this I think covered folks went up from 71 to 84 percent...so yeah, quite a few are not covered still...but if you are going to look for a plan that is semi- working, this might be a place to start...and then tweek of course via variables...

 

[Anonymous]

Am I talking to God? 60 bucks a month on a 22,ooo income? Anybody,everybody would jump for joy for this reality. Look around the rest of the country.We would all love to live with MT bike championships and micro brews that tickle your tastes.Not to mention good skiing just 4 hoors from my apt. Maybe all of us can get a job,full or part time,or even the dole(welfare) in Vermont. What a great place and people and the good health care is 300 dollars cheaper than NY. You do have lots of jobs,don't you? I think your car insurance is half of here also

fatandfast...really sorry at slamming you...didnt mean it...just a misread...

aka car insurance: I am not an expert but I pay 240 bucks a year for liabilty...just the basic...

again, sorry for being a *******...didn't mean it...

 

[Anonymous]

fat and fast...and yeah, move on over, you're welcome to come of course...not great jobs where you will be rich...but a very low rate of unemployment...and folks get by...and do well...vermont is like the place the idiots of new hampshire always dreamed of...head on over...

 

[CentralCaliBike]

...it works as we are a small state...but it is a model and is working...without bankrupting anything via state coffers...

I am glad it is working for you, but consider the following:

Vermont - 19th highest tax level of the 50 states; 30% of people over age 25 have a Bachelor Degree; less than 4% foreign born population

California - 6th highest tax level of the 50 states; 18% of people over age 25 have a Bachelor Degree; 27% foreign born population

I see a few reasons why the Vermont model is not likely to work in this state - we already have a much higher tax rate, a lower educational rate (which also means a lower proportional income rate).

 

[Anonymous]

I am glad it is working for you, but consider the following:

Vermont - 19th highest tax level of the 50 states; 30% of people over age 25 have a Bachelor Degree; less than 4% foreign born population

California - 6th highest tax level of the 50 states; 18% of people over age 25 have a Bachelor Degree; 27% foreign born population

I see a few reasons why the Vermont model is not likely to work in this state - we already have a much higher tax rate, a lower educational rate (which also means a lower proportional income rate).

people don't make too much money in this state...comparably to others...and yeah we have a higher tax rate than quite a few....actually I believe it is HIGHER than you quote ( for decades...long before any health care thing came along)...

the point in this state is it is actually livable...and a community...we have the lowest crime rate in the nation...and the most liberal gun laws...you can conceal and carry with no permit...total liberals huh?

my only point is maybe via the health care debate, the nation might want to look here...but they won't....go ahead and add statistics and quotes and fill it in why it won't work...

But good luck in California!

 

[Anonymous]

actually...overall, if we are going to be honest...via your arguement as to why it won't work...all things considered we have th second highest tax rates in the nation when you take everything together...all of the bull**** I mean and those are the statistics...

 

[CentralCaliBike]

people don't make too much money in this state...comparably to others...and yeah we have a higher tax rate than quite a few....actually I believe it is HIGHER than you quote ( for decades...long before any health care thing came along)...

the point in this state is it is actually livable...and a community...we have the lowest crime rate in the nation...and the most liberal gun laws...you can conceal and carry with no permit...total liberals huh?

my only point is maybe via the health care debate, the nation might want to look here...but they won't....go ahead and add statistics and quotes and fill it in why it won't work...

But good luck in California!

I had family back there a couple of hundred years ago - there is a reason (or two) you have a low crime rate, and I believe if you look at the statistics you will find that you are doing much better economically than most states because the local population values education, hard work, and is not on Welfare. Most states are not in your situation and I believe Vermont will end up being a net exporter of tax dollars to places like California (even more than now) should this Health Care program pass.

 

[Anonymous]

A right wing nut job evil employer and business owner (me) has a few questions.


Is anyone else bothered by all of the new ways people can become criminals if the health care bill passes? Can anyone come up with an analogy? Is anyone bothered forcing young healthy people to pay higher than market rates for insurance to provide a subsidy to older Americans?

Interesting article appeared in The Wall Street Journal written by Dr. Jeffrey S. Flier who is the Dean of Harvard Medical School.

[http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704431804574539581994054014.html


"Worse, currently proposed federal legislation would undermine any potential for real innovation in insurance and the provision of care. It would do so by overregulating the health-care system in the service of special interests such as insurance companies, hospitals, professional organizations and pharmaceutical companies, rather than the patients who should be our primary concern.

In effect, while the legislation would enhance access to insurance, the trade-off would be an accelerated crisis of health-care costs and perpetuation of the current dysfunctional system—now with many more participants. This will make an eventual solution even more difficult. Ultimately, our capacity to innovate and develop new therapies would suffer most of all."[/I]

Now I realize this article makes points that does not fit with the view of most posting on this thread so before you begin demonizing the author of the article his bio is here;
http://hms.harvard.edu/public/news/bio.html

One last question, what if Dr. Flier is correct?

 

[Anonymous]

http://www.vermontguardian.com/local/042007/TaxFoundation.shtml

you love stats...here you are via taxes...

 

[Anonymous]

now you are talking about all the new criminals who might be produced via healthcare refore...you like a good argument...why are you not sticking with this one instead of tossing ridiculous paranoid things onto the highway....

 

[CentralCaliBike]

http://www.vermontguardian.com/local/042007/TaxFoundation.shtml

you love stats...here you are via taxes...

I pulled my stats from the Vermont state website - should have figured they would try to sell a lower tax rate to the potential new citizen. And you wonder why Vermont is not the destination of those looking for a new state to live (except for fatandfast)

 

[Anonymous]

I had family back there a couple of hundred years ago - there is a reason (or two) you have a low crime rate, and I believe if you look at the statistics you will find that you are doing much better economically than most states because the local population values education, hard work, and is not on Welfare. Most states are not in your situation and I believe Vermont will end up being a net exporter of tax dollars to places like California (even more than now) should this Health Care program pass.

Oh please...now you are going to lecture me as to why MY state is working...god man you are hopeless...I have a real understanding why we ran your ilk and associated dna outta here a "couple hundred" years ago...

You keep waiting for that "Net" export taxation...

 

[Anonymous]

I pulled my stats from the Vermont state website - should have figured they would try to sell a lower tax rate to the potential new citizen. And you wonder why Vermont is not the destination of those looking for a new state to live (except for fatandfast)

actually...it is little known part of our state constitution...we hate assholes and they don't do too well here...