World Politics

[fatandfast]

Cent Cal. I love food,all kinds fresh,fried animal and veg alike. Why do the people who live and work in your area growing my food not deserve heath care? Brown people are a major component of Americas engine and without them our lives would skid out of control starting on both coasts, Fresno,Bakersfield and Visalia would smell like rotten fruit an and most urban people around me would starve. Health care should be portable for a guy who picks,lettuce,strawberries,pecans or anything else. Our food supply is important. People in the fields with TB,VD,HIV,Salmanila, whatever need treatment. Things that could be handled for 20 bucks cost millions. These people will work until they are almost dead,because they have no access to a doctor. Then they box up whatever the had and send it to me for dinner.A bunch of childhood thing can be handled with good prenatal vitamins for 30 smacks for 9 months. Come on man have a heart,do you really dislike everybody named Chavez.

 

[Anonymous]

Not sure about the six million but it is likely that if he retains power he will be attacking his neighbors.

Gee, he hasn't yet and has been in power for abit...maybe he will take over Costa rica soon huh?

Chavez probably just doesn't want the bad P.R. we have with our invading and occupying countries we have nothing to do with...but, oh yeah, we have the moral high ground of course...

 

[CentralCaliBike]

Cent Cal. I love food,all kinds fresh,fried animal and veg alike. Why do the people who live and work in your area growing my food not deserve heath care? Brown people are a major component of Americas engine and without them our lives would skid out of control starting on both coasts, Fresno,Bakersfield and Visalia would smell like rotten fruit an and most urban people around me would starve. Health care should be portable for a guy who picks,lettuce,strawberries,pecans or anything else. Our food supply is important. People in the fields with TB,VD,HIV,Salmanila, whatever need treatment. Things that could be handled for 20 bucks cost millions. These people will work until they are almost dead,because they have no access to a doctor. Then they box up whatever the had and send it to me for dinner.A bunch of childhood thing can be handled with good prenatal vitamins for 30 smacks for 9 months. Come on man have a heart,do you really dislike everybody named Chavez.

They have access to health care (one of the reasons my health insurance keeps going up) - just spend a night or two in the ER and you will find that health insurance is not your ticket to see a doctor. Since I have a number of relatives who are considered brown (including a couple of children - although I do not see them that way) I do not see this is a race issue.

 

[ChrisE]

Gee, he hasn't yet and has been in power for abit...maybe he will take over Costa rica soon huh?

Chavez probably just doesn't want the bad P.R. we have with our invading and occupying countries we have nothing to do with...but, oh yeah, we have the moral high ground of course...

Of course. Don't you watch the news? Not that liberal commie lying stuff that is aired from outside our borders; the real truthful stuff brought to you by corporation X.

With this attitude I will soon conclude you are against us instead of with us.

 

[fatandfast]

They have access to health care (one of the reasons my health insurance keeps going up) - just spend a night or two in the ER and you will find that health insurance is not your ticket to see a doctor. Since I have a number of relatives who are considered brown (including a couple of children - although I do not see them that way) I do not see this is a race issue.

If a woman feels a lump before she goes to work in the fields she should go to the ER after work for care? Your saying rather than a Dr saying take these 30 bux worth of vitamins so your child will not have cleft palate,she should know to do this from..picking peaches? or an ER visit. When her water breaks she should show up and explain to the ER attendant that he is her Dr? Come on man! We are so much better than this. Access to an Emergency rm is health care? I fell at a race in Columbia, the ambulance and doctors wanted cash up front. I fell in Germany and Belgium they could not figure out how to give me a bill. We are the 1st world even if we don't want to be. I be visiting Gilroy or Carmel anytime soon people have a mean spirit. when you beef it on your bike or in car I hope the Dr's name is Chavez.

 

[titan_90]

They have access to health care (one of the reasons my health insurance keeps going up) - just spend a night or two in the ER and you will find that health insurance is not your ticket to see a doctor.

How is an ER visit real Heath care? You conservatives are truly out of touch with reality.

 

[CentralCaliBike]

Of course. Don't you watch the news? Not that liberal commie lying stuff that is aired from outside our borders; the real truthful stuff brought to you by corporation X.

With this attitude I will soon conclude you are against us instead of with us.

He started with destruction of the media, and while I have no love for them, I do not see closing down the media because you do not like what they are saying as part of a democratic society. Further, he has increased arms purchasing - I personally do not think he has the ability to invade the United States and doubt he is doing so because of a concern about being invaded by the United States - I do see that he has been making threats towards Columbia for the past four or five years (including being associated with a well known terrorist group last year).

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,545910,00.html

Here is another:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/southamerica/venezuela/6538903/Hugo-Chavez-intensifies-conflict-threat-with-Colombia.html

Of course there is the preceding statement from last week which is part of a long history of similar statements (I know some will say this is all the fault of the United States).

But there real concern here is that when he finishes elimination of golf:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/12/world/americas/12venez.html

He will turn to the "new golf" = cycling.

 

[CentralCaliBike]

If a woman feels a lump before she goes to work in the fields she should go to the ER after work for care? Your saying rather than a Dr saying take these 30 bux worth of vitamins so your child will not have cleft palate,she should know to do this from..picking peaches? or an ER visit. When her water breaks she should show up and explain to the ER attendant that he is her Dr? Come on man! We are so much better than this. Access to an Emergency rm is health care? I fell at a race in Columbia, the ambulance and doctors wanted cash up front. I fell in Germany and Belgium they could not figure out how to give me a bill. We are the 1st world even if we don't want to be. I be visiting Gilroy or Carmel anytime soon people have a mean spirit. when you beef it on your bike or in car I hope the Dr's name is Chavez.

Actually, his name is Dr. Nava.

 

[Anonymous]

He started with destruction of the media, and while I have no love for them, I do not see closing down the media because you do not like what they are saying as part of a democratic society. Further, he has increased arms purchasing - I personally do not think he has the ability to invade the United States and doubt he is doing so because of a concern about being invaded by the United States - I do see that he has been making threats towards Columbia for the past four or five years (including being associated with a well known terrorist group last year).

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,545910,00.html

Here is another:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/southamerica/venezuela/6538903/Hugo-Chavez-intensifies-conflict-threat-with-Colombia.html

Of course there is the preceding statement from last week which is part of a long history of similar statements (I know some will say this is all the fault of the United States).

But there real concern here is that when he finishes elimination of golf:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/12/world/americas/12venez.html

He will turn to the "new golf" = cycling.

Should the evil Chavez actually eradicate golf...I will give up my U.S citizenship and join the revolution...VIVA CHAVEZ!

 

[Laszlo]

I can't believe the health extortion rates some of you are having to pay, $500 per month for a family ???

 

[CentralCaliBike]

I can't believe the health extortion rates some of you are having to pay, $500 per month for a family ???

That is the free market price - the government price (for the same insurance company) is between $1450 (low cost program) and $2000 per month (up graded version) for the government sponsored rate.

 

[Laszlo]

That is the free market price - the government price (for the same insurance company) is between $1450 (low cost program) and $2000 per month (up graded version) for the government sponsored rate.

I may be missing something; please correct me if I am wrong; this is like car insurance ? if you want it, it costs this much per month for coverage against medical costs up to a certain amount eg $1 million, $2 million, $5 million ? Low cost, assume a basic coverage maybe $ half million, $17 grand per year ???? Otherwise you pay the bill if you have to go to the hosiptal for any medical condition, life-saving surgery ? So the average Joe who gets by with perhaps 20-30 grand per year, (and likely a glen beck supporter) is SOL ?

 

[CentralCaliBike]

I may be missing something; please correct me if I am wrong; this is like car insurance ? if you want it, it costs this much per month for coverage against medical costs up to a certain amount eg $1 million, $2 million, $5 million ? Low cost, assume a basic coverage maybe $ half million, $17 grand per year ???? Otherwise you pay the bill if you have to go to the hosiptal for any medical condition, life-saving surgery ? So the average Joe who gets by with perhaps 20-30 grand per year, (and likely a glen beck supporter) is SOL ?

If you cannot opt out of the county coverage, there are varying rates that apply based upon the deductible amounts. How much the max amount you will be charged for the year and for various visits. Lower deductible = higher monthly payment. I was able to get a slightly higher deductible from the same insurance company on my own for almost a third of what I had to pay if I could not opt out of county insurance. The maximum payable amount for both the county and my personal insurance are the same in a given year - in fact, if I max out my deductable I will still pay less than what I would have paid for the premiums on the county insurance with no medical claims.

Note: the county negotiated a rate substantially higher than Blue Cross offered me; presumably because they have to take people with preexisting conditions at the county, because the county employees have a history of taking a lot of sick time off - and visiting the doctor often (and I do not), and because somehow it costs more when dealing with a government provided insurance program.

 

[CentralCaliBike]

So the average Joe who gets by with perhaps 20-30 grand per year, (and likely a glen beck supporter) is SOL ?

Actually the 20-30k earner is likely not to be a supporter of Glen Beck and is SOL since they are required to obtain county insurance or lose their job. This results in no insurance for their families generally since the premiums would be more than their income for the month (or a much higher insurance rate for themselves using the government option and a more affordable rate for their family through private insurance). However, not to worry, because the State has another program (which is one of the reasons that California is over 20 billion in the hole) for low income workers which will provide insurance for their children - of course the money to pay for the program comes out of their (and my) pay check in the form of taxes.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

But if you're making $20-$30k a year, unless you have a job that offers insurance, you're SOL as well, no?

 

[CentralCaliBike]

But if you're making $20-$30k a year, unless you have a job that offers insurance, you're SOL as well, no?

Actually, you can go out and buy insurance (like I do).

 

[fatandfast]

But if you're making $20-$30k a year, unless you have a job that offers insurance, you're SOL as well, no?

no matter how many times you say this,right each time,everybody thinks you can get a good policy for 50 bucks a month. 350 maybe with deductible. 20k per year this would be 30% of your post tax income. It's not affordable,

 

[CentralCaliBike]

no matter how many times you say this,right each time,everybody thinks you can get a good policy for 50 bucks a month. 350 maybe with deductible. 20k per year this would be 30% of your post tax income. It's not affordable,

True -but, just because the government provides it does not mean it will cost less (or, as a lot of people think = Free). Everyone will pay for this, and it will cost more for the same individuals as it does today. Besides not having to pay for something leads to a lack of value and responsibility.

 

[Laszlo]

True -but, just because the government provides it does not mean it will cost less (or, as a lot of people think = Free). Everyone will pay for this, and it will cost more for the same individuals as it does today. Besides not having to pay for something leads to a lack of value and responsibility.

Actually, after you factor out the corporate lawyers, insurance adjusters accountants, billing personel etc. your costs get reduced considerably; and you coverage should improve ( no excuses not to perform a medically necessary proceedure). In Ontario, car insurance went to a no-fault system; which basically means that your car insurance covers your damage in an accident ( provided you did not sustain it in criminal activity, deliberately or through sheer negligence ). The other guys car insurance pays for his damage. Every car has to have car insurance. This eliminated much of the burden on the courts system and legal costs as well- it did a lot to keep costs down; as say a $700 car door will basically cost just that, not the legal fees added on to it. Of course there are exceptions, and specific applications, but that basically is how it is here as long as no one is seriously injured. Car insurance rates are only now just starting to go up as court awarded damages for people seriously injured or maimed in accidents have gone up. As a cyclist-victim of a collision with a car the guys car insurance covered my loss( because I didn't have a car at the time) and it was nice not having to deal with finding and paying for a lawyer then waiting for a trial date etc etc.The rule was fairly simple and simply applied.

 

[fatandfast]

True -but, just because the government provides it does not mean it will cost less (or, as a lot of people think = Free). Everyone will pay for this, and it will cost more for the same individuals as it does today. Besides not having to pay for something leads to a lack of value and responsibility.

We all know nothing is free don't we? I want my employer to pay me the extra money rather than pay me less because he has to pay 200-800 dollars per month for my medical insurance. One thing is for sure if you come into my company and have a wedding ring on and sweet pictures of your kids you are way less likely to get the job over some buck in his 20's. Simple math your health insurance for you and your family will cost me 600+ bucks per month, the 20's kid 250 to 350, and his wages are cheaper,yes he is less qualified but the company can make due with the mix of savings and energy. The government health care we already have is some of the best and most cost effective. The plan that provides for the military has people with little experience treating uncomplicated things like cuts,scratches,broken arms and legs,colds,ect. Your sickness runs you up the chain of command to a more qualified person. Most people don't fit your model of paying for anything. Co-pay of 10 or 20 for something that costs 500 is bad math. A tiny chunk taken from your check to help with the cost is also non effective. The solution is for your employer to give you the cash and the info and see in most people still participate in the program. Health care went with the same lack of control that savings plans use,don't let the guy see the money and he is less likely to spend it. The first time the insurance company said pay your bill at the window at the doctors office there would be blood in the streets,nobody knows what he or she is actually paying for anything,true cost.

 

[Bala Verde]

True -but, just because the government provides it does not mean it will cost less (or, as a lot of people think = Free). Everyone will pay for this, and it will cost more for the same individuals as it does today.

Of course everyone will pay for it, that's the beauty of it.

First of all, no one will even 'know' or financially feel it. If every citizen in the US spares a dime, you'd amass a great amount of money. That's also how charity works, and obviously capitalism. If you can sell each Chinese a white t-shirt for a buck....

The generated money under a collective insurance system can then be 'redistributed' - I am aware you don't like that word - to those who need it (most). If no one is exempted from participation and everyone is obligated to take out insurance, you'd pool a lot more money together not with an eye on profit. In good capitalist reasoning, you'd have:

- economies of scale
- greater wealth accumulates more wealth (look at hedge funds)

Insurance thrives on spreading risks, so pooling as many people together as possible could potentially be a great thing.

Besides not having to pay for something leads to a lack of value and responsibility.

1) I don't think that applies to health care now. People who have the most/more expensive (valuable) packages apparently go to a doctor as often as possible when they feel the slightest tingling in their big toe.

They want to get their value's worth, because they pay a 'premium' price, and therewith become irresponsible consumers.

2) What about a gift. When you get a gift from someone - i.e. it's free - you treat it like junk? Of course not. So the perceived 'monetary' lack of value does not render something invaluable nor make someone irresponsible. According to your statement, we'd rather ban charity as well from the US society, because people are seriously inclined treat these 'charitable contribution' irresponsibly.

3) Look at environmental degradation. A mining company purchases a piece of land, the rights to a section of the sea for oil etc, exploits till it can bear no more and then leaves it. Without government regulation, they would be very irresponsible, since being responsible is not as 'efficient'.

4) Commoners in 17th century and before kept pastures 'in common', they shared it with other shepherds for example. The land was 'free' and 'shared', and they acted quite responsibly because they knew how valuable it was to all of them and their existence. Originally, in Asia, in the rice cultivation agriculture, people were dependent on each other, because of the communal irrigation system that they had to maintain to keep the rice plants watered. The system emerged through cooperation and mutual dependency, and in essence was 'free'. Everyone however chipped (labor/money/time) in to maintain it, because they depended on it.

For more info, check Elinor Ostrom Nobel Prize Winner 2009

Capitalist's tendency to posit man against himself and society, seems to have fostered a culture of individualism and irresponsibility, because everyone - as a consumer - perceives himself of being in control of his life without the need of others for his existence under the motto "If I want it, I can buy it, and when it's mine I can do with it whatever I want"

 

[Anonymous]

no matter how many times you say this,right each time,everybody thinks you can get a good policy for 50 bucks a month. 350 maybe with deductible. 20k per year this would be 30% of your post tax income. It's not affordable,

Well, I am not so sure...first off, I think we should have universal care period...same for all...I had it when I lived in Belgium and it was a fantastic system.

That said, I now live in Vermont...we have tried to cover everyone and if you can't get it thru your employer that state pays private companies (blue cross, mvp ect ) to cover you...I guess it is a compromise between public and private ect ect...and it is then based on your income...

So I make about 22,000 a year...and I pay 60 bucks a month...and it actually works pretty well here...both for the state and the private companies...and for me as well. I can afford it, and the private companies are still making money and the state is getting everyone covered.

that might be the way forward for the rest of the country...or maybe not...but it is our system and is going well...

just one snapshot of course....

 

[CentralCaliBike]

Actually, after you factor out the corporate lawyers, insurance adjusters accountants, billing personel etc. your costs get reduced considerably; and you coverage should improve ( no excuses not to perform a medically necessary proceedure).

We have medical welfare currently in the form of worker's compensation. Worker's compensation is covered by the employer and the consumer (through higher pricing). Between worker's compensation fraud, and welfare fraud in general, there are literally millions of dollars stolen locally every year.

($55 million in the Detroit area annually) > http://blogpublic.lib.msu.edu/index.php/2008/02/13/welfare-fraud-iprimarily-involving-bridg?blog=5 >> this being one hundreds of similar stories.

(somewhere between $7 and $61 million dollars in county worker compensation fraud annually in Los Angeles County alone > it is so hard to determine there is over $50 million range in possible fraud in a single year) >> http://www.thefreelibrary.com/COUNTY+FAILS+TO+CUT+WORKERS%27+COMP+FRAUD+SOARING+COSTS+MAY+CLIMB+TO+$2...-a0122388476

In the end there will be a large number of attorneys demanding welfare for individuals that the state has concluded are ripping off the system, there will be billers to insure that doctors get paid (and are not over paid). There will likely be another system of attorneys to enforce the rights of those who are denied benefits (I expect they will get paid by the tax payer as well).

 

[CentralCaliBike]

...The government health care we already have is some of the best and most cost effective. The plan that provides for the military has people with little experience treating uncomplicated things like cuts,scratches,broken arms and legs,colds,ect. Your sickness runs you up the chain of command to a more qualified person....

I understand that the medical costs for the military has tripled between 1988 and 2003

http://www.cbo.gov/doc.cfm?index=4521&type=0


And in a more current study the Feds are predicting an 80% increase in military medical spending by 2024

http://www.federaldaily.com/federaldaily/archive/2006/01/FD011006.htm#10b

 

[CentralCaliBike]

Of course everyone will pay for it, that's the beauty of it.

First of all, no one will even 'know' or financially feel it. If every citizen in the US spares a dime, you'd amass a great amount of money. That's also how charity works, and obviously capitalism.

No one will even know??? > Charity does not force people to pay someone else - you make that decision on your own. I am very certain that I will feel this - my employer will figure that they do not have to pay me as much because someone else (me) is picking up the tab. My taxes will increase. I know that the President said he will not increase taxes on the middles class to pay for this - initially he said that middle class was people making under $250K, then he moved it to $200k, last I heard it has been lowered even further. Since revenues are dropping all I hear from the party in power is that we have to increase taxes to pay for the entitlements.

In my state they actually have increased the withholding tax amount on my check to an amount higher than the state knows I will pay at the end of the year in order to get a interest free loan from me, the tax payer. There is no question in my mind that I will pay more taxes and most certainly will be aware of it. In addition it will effect my family to pay more taxes, for that free insurance, I am certainly going to have to give up something (or things) else - I hope not the cycling.