World Politics

[rhubroma]

Posting about a movie in the politics thread may seem a little shallow, but I have to say that sometimes movies do a good job of clarifying a larger point the contents of which are less comprehensible.

I just finished watching Margin Call. My first suggestion is to watch it.

Secondly, it drove home to me the reason that I have not been able to find much give a sh*t about occupy Wall Street and find the Tea Party Patriots to be a laughable group of clueless people. You cannot occupy what happened in the mortgage derivatives market or any similar construct in the future. You can't apply originalist philosophy regarding the constitution to what happened with AIG. You can't occupy it because when it exists, nobody is complaining because even the people who are creating it don't understand it, and by the time you try to occupy it because of the obvious gravity of the destruction left in its wake, there is nothing there to occupy anymore. You can't begin talking about socialism in relation to it or pass regulations to end it because it no longer exists, and when you pass regulation to try to stop it, it will simply exist in a place devoid of the regulation you passed. It is the force of greed, and it is more onerous than any other force on the planet. You cannot occupy the greed people have that makes them cease to consider the impact of their decisions, and move headlong into grabbing as much of that cash as possible even if that pile of money lies under a mound of **** at the bottom of a cesspool. You can't extinguish it by pulling governmental support of the poor regardless of their individual ability to become part of the working world, be it ample or nonexistent.

I have been accused on another forum, populated mostly by conservatives, of being jealous of success; of being jealous of the wealth attained by those in society who are "successful." The thing that they don't understand is, that is impossible. I don't want to be part of that world. There is noting in their world to envy. There is nothing in that world to pity. There is nothing in that world but a continuum of greed. The door is not open to everyone. You have to leave your morals at the door, and most people are incapable of doing that. I will not vilify those who walk through however, because in the physical world, there is no greater god than money. If you aren't going to pursue helping others with your life, you might as well drop your morals and make as much money as possible, because owning more stuff feels better than owning less. For a short time, while I was part of the machine that fed that particular greed, I experienced the fruits of greed. It was fun. If anyone tells you differently, they are a liar. Fortunately, it didn't last.

The American dream served up in apple pie is a fiction created by people who need your vote so that they can help pacify you for the people with real power and money. They aren't pacifying you so that you will not try to pass laws that will hinder them. You couldn't possibly pass laws that will hurt them. Politicians aren't smart enough to legislate away the manifestations of greed because greed is a force of chaos, and it will express itself somewhere else. You cannot control that which is not constructed of order.

It is times like these that I am grateful for my faith. It may seem a weakness to some, but it is better than the alternative in my estimation.

Go see Margin Call. Watch the part when the two guys are riding back to the city in the Austin Martin early on the morning of the final day. Listen to the reality they express. You can't change that.

I will continue to support the forces of socialism not because it is superior morally, but because I don't believe that supporting a healthy adult who chooses not to work is really all that destructive to society because you will also be supporting some people who cannot work and their children. It is a crappy existence we provide, but what the hell, right?

I think there are some who protest for decency and some who simply do not. I, therefore, don't judge (or take seriously) the philosophy of a protest based upon the results it can't possibly obtain, but rather the ideas upon which it was based.

As to being able to do nothing about greed. In my humble and probably naive and stupid opinion: I have always felt that living in a civil society means that I may expect the political establishment, that is the people we vote for, to legislate in such ways to limit the raw force that sheer greed has upon the other economic establishment that nobody votes for.

The stupidity of my way of thinking is only demonstrated by the fact that, in the history of our democracy, precisely the opposite has mostly been the case. Though I'd rather be happily stupid in my expectations than leave, as you say, my morals at the door. Whereas I personally try, as Boethius once did, take some consolation from philosophy.

The art we need, is the art of bearing the unbearable.

I'll try to see that film.

 

[frenchfry]

watching government fritter away money is frustrating. but which is worse, a society where 40 million people do not have access to healthcare, the unemployed have little support, vacations are unheard of for the middle class, infrastructure is falling apart, etc, etc or living in france?

i lived in relative penury in france for a few years and in spite of its problems it was much better than being poor in the US.

a flat (inheritance, income, any) tax is not fair. is france's inheritance tax really the same for everyone? no exemptions?

There is a fine line between social responsibility and creating a cycle of dependence. I often think we have crossed that line here, though I agree that the situation in France is better than (my perception of) the situation in the US.

We pay a significantly higher % of our resources in taxes than the US, yet the infrastructure is often in horrible shape. Many public facilities (schools, gyms, hospitals etc.) are in terrible shape. Where is all the money going, and can we continue to finance the social programs with crippling debt? The health care is generally excellent, but there is an amazing amount of waste and virtually no management of the funding.

I have no problem paying relatively high level of taxes, I just like to see that they are generally going to fund useful programs and not special interests. Like in the US, politics and big business have an unhealthy incestuous relationship. I won't even start about the complexity here, a real nightmare.

Indeed there are lower inheritance tax rates for direct transmission up to certain amounts, basically 20% up to €500K with a top rate of 45%.

 

[Anonymous]

I think there are some who protest for decency and some who simply do not. I, therefore, don't judge (or take seriously) the philosophy of a protest based upon the results it can't possibly obtain, but rather the ideas upon which it was based.

As to being able to do nothing about greed. In my humble and probably naive and stupid opinion: I have always felt that living in a civil society means that I may expect the political establishment, that is the people we vote for, to legislate in such ways to limit the raw force that sheer greed has upon the other economic establishment that nobody votes for.

The stupidity of my way of thinking is only demonstrated by the fact that, in the history of our democracy, precisely the opposite has mostly been the case. Though I'd rather be happily stupid in my expectations than leave, as you say, my morals at the door. Whereas I personally try, as Boethius once did, take some consolation from philosophy.

The art we need, is the art of bearing the unbearable.

I'll try to see that film.

And your choice of confronting that reality is admirable because you are helping create people who, at the very least, will be capable of understanding what is happening. I would rather be capable of understanding that futile nature of fighting greed (because occasionally in history, greed has lost for a short period of time and thus the fight against it is not completely futile. Small victories are better than none), than to be completely unaware of the actual battle taking place.

The movie made me think about concentrating on the courses that would help facilitate a career in prosecuting white collar crime. The problem is that much of what happened wasn't illegal, and I don't believe in a morality police or prosecution of greed.

One of the great joys in life is exploring with intellectual curiosity.

 

[rhubroma]

There is a fine line between social responsibility and creating a cycle of dependence. I often think we have crossed that line here, though I agree that the situation in France is better than (my perception of) the situation in the US.

We pay a significantly higher % of our resources in taxes than the US, yet the infrastructure is often in horrible shape. Many public facilities (schools, gyms, hospitals etc.) are in terrible shape. Where is all the money going, and can we continue to finance the social programs with crippling debt? The health care is generally excellent, but there is an amazing amount of waste and virtually no management of the funding.

I have no problem paying relatively high level of taxes, I just like to see that they are generally going to fund useful programs and not special interests. Like in the US, politics and big business have an unhealthy incestuous relationship. I won't even start about the complexity here, a real nightmare.

Indeed there are lower inheritance tax rates for direct transmission up to certain amounts, basically 20% up to €500K with a top rate of 45%.

I can speak for Italy in saying that having a public healthcare system, rather than none at all, is better for everyone.

We also talk about the dilapidated state of some hospitals and schools, which has more to do with corruption, mismanagement and tax evasion than anything to do with the public domain per se.

And yet everyone gets treatment and everyone gets an affordable education.

I think the market forces which have been introduced to such things have made them worse and the banks, which have financed the real estate market and industry, just as in the States, means that the economy is driven by future growth projections that given the steep economic downturn will be increasingly difficult to arrive at and thus the nation sinks further and further into debt.

This is what's crippling the social state more than anything else. The mad precipitous rush down the path of financial capitalism. It is the problem, not socialized medical assistance. Following this infernal ideology of eternal growth at the markets, we loose sight of what's really important and, worse, we end up not being able to pay for those civil needs like health and education. It's just maddening.

And I personally don't worry much at all about creating a cycle of dependence. That's section 8. Rather I worry about keeping the market and capitalism out of the public programs, which we pay the state for in our taxes. Instead they are paying down private dept that has been socialized by the state. So this is a problem with capitalism. Neither is privatization the answer, as it is non-egalitarian and affordable to only those of a certain means as well as being market driven in the utmost.

 

[rhubroma]

...

One of the great joys in life is exploring with intellectual curiosity.

And what a pity that so few people actually do.

 

[Amsterhammer]

And what a pity that so few people actually do.

I was intending to comment on that same line as soon as I saw it. Indeed, Rhub, it's such a shame that many lose their inquisitiveness once they have passed through their 'official' studying phase. Hardly a day goes by that I am not amazed by some fact or another that I never knew about.

 

[Amsterhammer]

A long and fascinating article about Bernie Sanders. Recommended.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/oct/21/bernie-sanders-socialist-vermont-interview

 

[Anonymous]

Thank you Koch Brothers for helping prove that the earth is indeed warming. Now we will move on to the oceans, and then we will begin to winnow down the causes. I'm sure humans have made no significant contribution...

http://www.csmonitor.com/Environmen...entally-fund-study-that-proves-global-warming

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

In many ways this all depends on what kind of world you want to live in. If everyone is going to keep all their money, the hell with everyone else, is that an okay world to you? One where there is no public transportation. No city parks. Those that can't afford health care simply die, often fairly young, and usually a painful death. Where environmental standards do not exist beyond what consumer advocacy groups can push. One where our national treasures, places like the Grand Canyon, Yosemite, public beaches, are all privately owned, accessible at the whim of the owner.

Thank you Koch Brothers for helping prove that the earth is indeed warming. http://www.csmonitor.com/Environmen...entally-fund-study-that-proves-global-warming

Liberal media.

In fact, if you look at the Koch brothers, they have very large connections to the government, and have received huge favors in return for their lobbying and campaign efforts. In fact, they are the single largest land lessee in the state of Montana, with subsidized rates well below market value. They claim they are defenders of freedom and capitalism. But in reality they are some of the largest recipients of socialism in the country. They want socialism for themselves, and no government assistance in any way for the rest of us. School children of Montana can fend for themselves. And the argument I hear from conservatives is that such an argument is irrelevant, because it's legal, or that the Koch's create jobs with their money, etc.

 

[redtreviso]

Stop calling OWS hippies.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MmusrhoEPyU

 

[Merckx index]

Scientific evidence for corporate world dominance

The following excerpts are from a 10/19/11 New Scientist article. The proof is in the pudding and the pudding feeds only a select few:

"An analysis of the relationships between 43,000 transnational corporations has identified a relatively small group of companies, mainly banks, with disproportionate power over the global economy....the study, by a trio of complex systems theorists at the Swiss Federal Institute of Technology in Zurich, is the first to go beyond ideology to empirically identify such a network of power. It combines the mathematics long used to model natural systems with comprehensive corporate data to map ownership among the world's transnational corporations (TNCs).

The work, to be published in PloS One, revealed a core of 1318 companies with interlocking ownerships.... When the team further untangled the web of ownership, it found much of it tracked back to a "super-entity" of 147 even more tightly knit companies - all of their ownership was held by other members of the super-entity - that controlled 40 per cent of the total wealth in the network.... Most were financial institutions. The top 20 included Barclays Bank, JPMorgan Chase & Co, and The Goldman Sachs Group....such networks are unstable. "If one [company] suffers distress," says Glattfelder, "this propagates."

Glattfelder says we may need global anti-trust rules, which now exist only at national level, to limit over-connection among TNCs. Bar-Yam says the analysis suggests one possible solution: firms should be taxed for excess interconnectivity to discourage this risk.”

http://integralpostmetaphysicalnond...ntific-evidence-for-corporate-world.html#more

 

[Amsterhammer]

It will be fascinating to see what the Tunisians make of their first elections in half a century. Sadly, I suspect that "110 political parties and scores of independents" vying for 217 seats is likely to be a recipe for disaster.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/oct/23/tunisians-flock-to-vote-free-elections

 

[redtreviso]

foxnews continued .. what charm school did she graduate from?

http://www.mediaite.com/tv/fox-news-panel-gasps-as-fox-business-anchor-calls-joe-biden-numb-nuts/

 

[fatandfast]

In many ways this all depends on what kind of world you want to live in. If everyone is going to keep all their money, the hell with everyone else, is that an okay world to you? One where there is no public transportation. No city parks. Those that can't afford health care simply die, often fairly young, and usually a painful death. Where environmental standards do not exist beyond what consumer advocacy groups can push. One where our national treasures, places like the Grand Canyon, Yosemite, public beaches, are all privately owned, accessible at the whim of the owner.


Liberal media.

In fact, if you look at the Koch brothers, they have very large connections to the government, and have received huge favors in return for their lobbying and campaign efforts. In fact, they are the single largest land lessee in the state of Montana, with subsidized rates well below market value. They claim they are defenders of freedom and capitalism. But in reality they are some of the largest recipients of socialism in the country. They want socialism for themselves, and no government assistance in any way for the rest of us. School children of Montana can fend for themselves. And the argument I hear from conservatives is that such an argument is irrelevant, because it's legal, or that the Koch's create jobs with their money, etc.

maybe not a bad model. Did you send in 20 dollars for national parks, how about another 20 for public parks? Did we get your 40 smacks plus the daily ticket for public transportation ?Did you send in 1000 bucks for general care? Maybe we can have little stickers on your ID that show if you paid with post tax dollars. Just let everybody have their money ,no government impound as currently exists. Listening to people that get huge refunds is absurd. When you give the government a quarterly check for your share and are asked for even more at the end of the year that should be the feeling that all citizens have.
The out of site out of mind BS that we currently have is stupid. Let everybody have all their own money and ask for the correct figure at the end of the year. The withholding numbers on your paychecks and tax bills will be numbers you can expect to pay at the end of year.
Rather than the abstract, parents can tell kids that the school or lack of one is because Daddy didn't pay his school tax bill. Everybody should have paperwork in hand as they enroll kids in classes. When tax payers get the direct rather than indirect bills for things like defense and schools and non payers everything will start to become clearer. Just those who pay and those who don't.

 

[ramjambunath]

It will be fascinating to see what the Tunisians make of their first elections in half a century. Sadly, I suspect that "110 political parties and scores of independents" vying for 217 seats is likely to be a recipe for disaster.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/oct/23/tunisians-flock-to-vote-\free-elections

They have a proportional representation cabinet? That doesn't seem right for a country which isn't a mature democracy. 110 parties definitely seems high with this system.
I always thought the British system helps one of the more popular parties to set a stable govt. In the British system (which even we use), one could dismiss the chances of most of even getting a remote spot in the parliament.
Also, only 60% turnout. I know it is decent, but they are voting for the first time in half a century, I would've thought there would have been a much higher number. Wasn't there a public holiday yesterday in Tunisia?

Edit: Al Jazeera reports nearly a 70% turnout. That's a good level.

foxnews continued .. what charm school did she graduate from?

http://www.mediaite.com/tv/fox-news-panel-gasps-as-fox-business-anchor-calls-joe-biden-numb-nuts/

I don't know anything about the woman but what she did was just arrogant and thick. Anyone can have an opinion, no matter how much one disagrees with it.
I've also found that any debate involving more than 3 experts and 1 (very strong) host turns into a shouting fest with a lot of mud slung either way. I've defected from pvt news channels to the govt channels (much higher quality and less insulting) for the news.
Any crap in the world can interpret news, heck even I do, but do the hosts have proper facts from proper documents. I've found it lacking in a lot of the private media in India.

 

[ramjambunath]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-15419941

Kirchner comfortably wins presidential elections.

With votes counted from 75% of polling stations, Ms Fernandez has won 53% of vote, enough to secure re-election in the first round.

 

[auscyclefan94]

yea and how many did they interview that could say but your radio didn't want them to say it to you? Murdoch owned station by chance?

Firstly, they asked them what they were protesting for. How is that restricting them saying it? Secondly, it was on ABC TV (yes a left wing tv station), 3AW, Channel 9 and MTR. I don't get what Rupert Murdoch has to do with it. Is it no coincidence that many of these protesters are seen at many other protests in Melbourne. Also interesting is that they can afford to be out protesting day after day like they have been. I am also not particulary against everything they are protesting about but many of them out their have firstly acted like idiots anyway.

 

[rhubroma]

Firstly, they asked them what they were protesting for. How is that restricting them saying it? Secondly, it was on ABC TV (yes a left wing tv station), 3AW, Channel 9 and MTR. I don't get what Rupert Murdoch has to do with it. Is it no coincidence that many of these protesters are seen at many other protests in Melbourne. Also interesting is that they can afford to be out protesting day after day like they have been. I am also not particulary against everything they are protesting about but many of them out their have firstly acted like idiots anyway.

The entire system is controlled by the financial capitalists. They own the corporate mass media too. It's all propaganda. The state of the US mass media these days is rather deplorable in informing people about the actual gravity of the situation - and it isn't the protesters!

What don't you get about how outrageously scandalous the financial practices of Wall Street and the stock markets are? What don't you get about hedge funds and financial speculation playing with the pocket books of entire states like Greece? What don't you get about the debt of private wealth being socialized and the wealth of society being privatized? What don't you get about the banks owning everything? Or that democracy itself has become something which can be bought politically, not earned by suffrage? What don't you get about a finance that has witnessed gargantuan wealth concentrated in ever fewer hands, while workers salaries have been stagnant since the 70's? What don't you get about mass credit, offered by these same banks, being foisted upon the middle class to provide the impetus for a consumer economy that otherwise would be dead to make up for low wages, with interest to boot?

Is your question mere intractableness or do these things truly escape you? I'm beginning to wonder if some are just that effen thick, or so conservative and moralistic in their world view, as to actually be fearful and scandalized by the OWS protesters, which seems to be the case, rather than what's really to be fearful of and scandalized by?

Pardon me for saying it so baldly, but I have run into your kind before. And be careful about using the word idiot in your assessment of others, before you have first seriously contemplated all the questions posed above.

 

[rhubroma]

Recently I've been reading about the very first stock market created at Amsterdam in 1608 by the chartared Dutch East India Company (founded 1602) and the Tulip Mania bubble that burst in 1637 that led to a grave economic crisis throughout the Netherlands...and here we are four centuries later with the same greed and the same casino finance.

 

[auscyclefan94]

The entire system is controlled by the financial capitalists. They own the corporate mass media too. It's all propaganda. The state of the US mass media these days is rather deplorable in informing people about the actual gravity of the situation - and it isn't the protesters!

What don't you get about how outrageously scandalous the financial practices of Wall Street and the stock markets are? What don't you get about hedge funds and financial speculation playing with the pocket books of entire states like Greece? What don't you get about the debt of private wealth being socialized and the wealth of society being privatized? What don't you get about the banks owning everything? Or that democracy itself has become something which can be bought politically, not earned by suffrage? What don't you get about a finance that has witnessed gargantuan wealth concentrated in ever fewer hands, while workers salaries have been stagnant since the 70's? What don't you get about mass credit, offered by these same banks, being foisted upon the middle class to provide the impetus for a consumer economy that otherwise would be dead to make up for low wages, with interest to boot?

Is your question mere intractableness or do these things truly escape you? I'm beginning to wonder if some are just that effen thick, or so conservative and moralistic in their world view, as to actually be fearful and scandalized by the OWS protesters, which seems to be the case, rather than what's really to be fearful of and scandalized by?

Pardon me for saying it so baldly, but I have run into your kind before. And be careful about using the word idiot in your assessment of others, before you have first seriously contemplated all the questions posed above.

Umm, excuse me? Where did this all come from? Did I say that I disagreed with what some of the real protesters were/are against? No. Am I completely against Capitalism? No, not at all. My family's old business what shut down partially due to big privatised corporate businesses. I think I understand first hand about what you are discussing. I am not exactly sure where you are from but protesting in the city for multiple days straight disrupting the city is beyond a fair protest. I also don't agree with your point on corporate mass media. You will get many media sources which are owned by big corporate business organisations but are generally of a left wing persuasion which is generally who most of the anti-capitalism supporters are. I am certainly not fearful of what they are saying either but the way the protesters went about it was wrong and I think some of the professional protesters that were at the event devalued the point that the actual people who wanted to protest properley and make a point about an issue they felt strongly about. Just because I am have generally a conservative political opinion does not make me an idiot either and I also could view some strong views about socialists like yourself but I certainly won't go to such depths on this forum.

I think you owe me an apology with such a misguided, outrageous attack. Until then, I will continue to wait.

 

[aphronesis]

"[ . I am not exactly sure where you are from but protesting in the city for multiple days straight disrupting the city is beyond a fair protest. "

What exactly does "fair" have to do with this situation? Let alone with conditions that are being disputed? And in reality the city is far from being disrupted by the protests. One has to get quite close to them in order to perceive any effect. College students drinking on the weekends are more disruptive to downtown neighborhoods than the protests. But back to the issue of fair: is there a time frame for acceptable protests? An expiration date after which life should go back to business as usual? How would you propose people achieve, or even petition for, political alternatives when all the conventional channels are completely ossified and distorted?

 

[Captain_Cavman]

If any of the readership here has a deposit account with the Bank of America, I'd advise moving it.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-...-moving-merrill-derivatives-to-bank-unit.html

To be clear, the derivatives contracts will be paid out first. $Trillions. BoA deposit holders won't get paid out because there'll be no money left. They are promised some recompense provided by the FDIC which is funded by the tax payer. Whether that promise can be kept and how long it would take to make it happen are uncertain. Too uncertain.

The bank of opportunity. they don't mean your opportunity, obviously.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Out of interest, has their been many "Occupy Wall Street" protesters out and about around any of your local cities?

Sadly, on two different occasions protesters interviewed on radio couldn't even say what they were protesting for.

It is a big mass media conspiracy to keep them from looking like a actual intelligent group. The media is trying to make them look like they are smoking dope and taking a crapper / **** in the streets. Everyone knows that is not happening.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

And your choice of confronting that reality is admirable because you are helping create people who, at the very least, will be capable of understanding what is happening. I would rather be capable of understanding that futile nature of fighting greed (because occasionally in history, greed has lost for a short period of time and thus the fight against it is not completely futile. Small victories are better than none), than to be completely unaware of the actual battle taking place.

The movie made me think about concentrating on the courses that would help facilitate a career in prosecuting white collar crime. The problem is that much of what happened wasn't illegal, and I don't believe in a morality police or prosecution of greed.

One of the great joys in life is exploring with intellectual curiosity.

whad dis be mean?

 

[Semper Fidelis]

If any of the readership here has a deposit account with the Bank of America, I'd advise moving it.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-...-moving-merrill-derivatives-to-bank-unit.html

To be clear, the derivatives contracts will be paid out first. $Trillions. BoA deposit holders won't get paid out because there'll be no money left. They are promised some recompense provided by the FDIC which is funded by the tax payer. Whether that promise can be kept and how long it would take to make it happen are uncertain. Too uncertain.
The bank of opportunity. they don't mean your opportunity, obviously.

Hey is the bold part your take on the October 18th article or is it a quote from bloomberg article?

Based on your take on this article I just went and took my 21 dollars out of that bank and put into capital one. Thanks for the great info caveman, I just sent this out to all my Whisky Tango Village friends via email alert so they can take their money / change out also.