World Politics

[rhubroma]

In America, you find where is Waldo. In Soviet Iran, Waldo finds where is YOU

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Do you wish to claim a prize for your revelation?

No not so much.

rhubsroma you are a proffesor or something like that correct?
Do you give your students advice often?

 

[El Pistolero]

http://insovietrussiajokes.wordpress.com/

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Eurozone banks have agreed to a $10.7 billion USD loan to Greece. The GDP in Greece is $304b. Another way to look at it is there are 11m people in Greece, so this translates into $900 per person.

I've been trying to study the problem with Greece, the Euro, debt, and austerity measures and I can't quite get my head around it.

What I found fascinating was a graph showing the GDP of Greece, and how between 2001 and 2008 it grew fairly well, but since dropped off. Most other countries in Europe are similar, as is the US (though we are now up a little). This makes me wonder what was going on during those six years of strong growth in Greece?

Where did all the money (or should I say "product" or "wealth") go during those six years when the GDP nearly tripled from $125b to $360b? It couldn't have all gone to a few rich people's villas and yachts, or holidays to Euro Disney. What happened on a social level to make the recent drop - which on GDP numbers hasn't been that precipitous, so damaging to where huge austerity measures are met with rioting?

Finally, what do people in Greece believe an $11b investment should be spent on to jump start growth in the country? I don't know enough about the country to make more than a guess (tourism, infrastructure?).

 

[El Pistolero]

Eurozone banks have agreed to a $10.7 billion USD loan to Greece. The GDP in Greece is $304b. Another way to look at it is there are 11m people in Greece, so this translates into $900 per person.

I've been trying to study the problem with Greece, the Euro, debt, and austerity measures and I can't quite get my head around it.

What I found fascinating was a graph showing the GDP of Greece, and how between 2001 and 2008 it grew fairly well, but since dropped off. Most other countries in Europe are similar, as is the US (though we are now up a little). This makes me wonder what was going on during those six years of strong growth in Greece?

Where did all the money (or should I say "product" or "wealth") go during those six years when the GDP nearly tripled from $125b to $360b? It couldn't have all gone to a few rich people's villas and yachts, or holidays to Euro Disney. What happened on a social level to make the recent drop - which on GDP numbers hasn't been that precipitous, so damaging to where huge austerity measures are met with rioting?

Finally, what do people in Greece believe an $11b investment should be spent on to jump start growth in the country? I don't know enough about the country to make more than a guess (tourism, infrastructure?).

Corruption, corruption and corruption.

 

[l.Harm]

Countries like Ireland, Spain and Greece profited a lot from the EU. The problem is they (especially Spain/Greece) didn't use it to improve there economic structure (still lots of debt, no reforms of for example pensions). The money they got from the EU wasn't used efficiently. For example in Spain I heard they builded a highway but it stopped just somewhere without any logic. I think this is a typical example of what happened there. So it was actually a kind of bubble that grew (2001-2008) with low interests (so attractive to create more debt) which now bursts.

Maybe this was a little vague. I don't know the whole picture but I hope this explained something.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Corruption, corruption and corruption.

Okay, I figured that. But where exactly did $300b go? I mean, it couldn't all have gone to a few government bureaucrat's Suisse bank accounts.

The problem is they (especially Spain/Greece) didn't use it to improve there economic structure (still lots of debt, no reforms of for example pensions).

I understand. But we're talking close to $300b. If pensions went up 10% (a very high amount) it would translate to maybe $20b just doing some quick math on Greece's population and retirement speculation. What about the rest of it?

For example in Spain I heard they built a highway but it stopped just somewhere without any logic. I think this is a typical example of what happened there.

Yes, we in the United States are experts at this sort of thing. The infamous Alaskan "Bridge to Nowhere.". But even that horrific US project topped out at $400m (way overpriced for such a bridge). How many bridges to nowhere could Greece build that to reach $300b? The entire road surfaces would have to be paved in gold!

At any rate, I do understand that to an extent, yes. But to waste what amounts to a tripling of their economy on nothing, and then have a 8% drop off cause draconian austerity measures, followed by rioting...someone had to have pocketed a HUGE amount of cash from this.

If I were part of the Eurozone banking, or WorldBank or IMF, I'd be attempting to launch a large inquiry as to just how Greece piissed away over $200m in less than a decade, only to have their country end up in worse shape than before.

 

[l.Harm]

How you calculate that 300b?

 

[patricknd]

Dow Chemical's (Dow Center) is across the street from where I work. From where I sit it appears that not all of India's Indians are boycotting Dow Chemical.

clever *******s are plotting to bring it down from within

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

How you calculate that 300b?

Well, it's really about $230b growth. I guess I rounded up a little too much. Maybe I should run for Congress. Greece GDP chart here.

Meanwhile, back during the bailouts the Fed gave the biggest banks an additional $13b and both sides did all they could to keep it a secret from not only the people, but Congress. The number the Fed gave banks turned out to be $1.2 trillion (with a T) on that day alone. What did you get out of it?

I wonder when the rioting is going to start in the US? Maybe the OWS people will grow a pair and occupy the NYSE floor for a few hours, before heading over to the mansions of the wealthiest investors with torches and pitchforks.

 

[redtreviso]

Probation for 8 felonies

Republican?? of course

""District Judge Suzanne Wooten was sentenced to 10 years probation and a $10,000 fine Monday after having been convicted last week of bribery and other charges.

She also will be required to perform more than 1,000 hours of community service while on probation.

The jury arrived at 8:30 a.m. Monday, expecting to hear prosecutors the next two days arguing what sentence she should receive, and the defense arguing one day that the sentence should be less than what prosecutors would be asking.""

http://www.pegasusnews.com/news/2011/nov/29/collin-county-suzanne-wooten-10-years-probation/

 

[craig1985]

Countries like Ireland, Spain and Greece profited a lot from the EU. The problem is they (especially Spain/Greece) didn't use it to improve there economic structure (still lots of debt, no reforms of for example pensions). The money they got from the EU wasn't used efficiently. For example in Spain I heard they builded a highway but it stopped just somewhere without any logic. I think this is a typical example of what happened there. So it was actually a kind of bubble that grew (2001-2008) with low interests (so attractive to create more debt) which now bursts.

Maybe this was a little vague. I don't know the whole picture but I hope this explained something.

I trust rhubroma on this as he actually lives in Italy, but when I read that, I immediately thought of the Strait of Messina Bridge to connect from Reggio Calabria to Sicily that is presently getting built and is estimated to cost up to €6.1b, do such projects like this one be considered a white elephant or justified given this is part of Italy is one of the poorest socio-economic regions in Italy (think back to the '30's where illiteracy was common in Sicily), and therefore creating thousands of direct and in-direct jobs?

 

[ramjambunath]

It is highly irritating when Laurent Gbagbo turns up in The Hague for alleged war crimes and the top international news is Michael ****ing Jackson's doctor being sentenced.

Ivory Coast's Laurent Gbagbo on way to ICC
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-15946481

 

[craig1985]

If Africa ever sorted their mess out, they would rule the world with the amount of natural rescources they have, but the West doesn't want this as it will mean a higher price to pay for resources like diamonds, gold, coltan, silver, oil etc. The countries with the most amount or contain natural resources are the ones that are in the most amount of conflict. It's a matter of time before South Sudan and north Sudan go to war over oil royalties (South Sudan has the oil, but the pipelines go through north Sudan, and the north is already wanting to renegotiate the contract over the oil royalties), Uganda has oil, gold, diamonds, and who knows if there ever will be conflict, it can happen quite literally at the flick of a switch, like what happened in Rwanda.

Personally, the place seems like a lost cause.

 

[gregod]

this song about the 99% is pretty funny. it is called "i'll occupy". a word of warning: it is a disco song.

here are the lyrics:

I'll Occupy"

I first was pepper sprayed
Just standing on the side
But it took me being blinded
to open up up my eyes
Cause I'd read the daily news,
and not responded actively
and I realized then and there
this revolution needed me


So here I am,
camped in a tent
Which is really so convenient
cause I can't afford my rent
But they came with shields and mace
In the night while it was dark
A NYPD army
Sent to clear Zuccotti Park

We'll protest on, with catchy phrases
We're going global
From London to Uc Davis
If you think that your batons are going to get us to go home
GO on and hit me, I'll just upload it from my phone.

Until I die,
I'll occupy
As long I know how to sit
And hold this heavy sign
cause the 99 is pissed
and we will not BE dismissed
I'll occupy
I'll occupy
hell yeah

Call us "hippies" call us "homeless,"
yeah we're fed it.
And we "don't know what we want,"
to our discredit.
But if you're reading all the news, funded by the corporations
Its no mystery
How you've missed our declaration

We're armed too
Yeah, we've got twitter
We're a techno savvy nation
And we're bitter
There's no Marie Antoinette
We're dragging to the Guillotine
Got non-violence, you bet!
Cause we aim to keep this clean

We will not go! Bring on the snow!
Got your faceless cooperate body
One peaceful badass foe
We're awake, we saw Wall-e, and you know we're organized
Did you think we'd crumble?
Did you think we'd lay down and not try?

Until I die,
I'll occupy
As long I know how to sit
And hold this heavy sign
cause the 99 is pissed
and we will not be dismissed
I'll occupy
I'll occupy
HELL yeah
HELL yeah!

We're off our Meds, we're watching Ted
And we're into Zombie culture,
But we're not the walking dead
If you want to fight for justice join the masses, we are strong
And it wouldn't hurt to take a
minute to repost this song!

Until we die,
We'll occupy
As long we know how to sit
And hold these heavy sign
cause the 99 is pissed
and we will not be dismissed
We'll occupy
We'll occupy
HELL yeah

 

[Captain_Cavman]

Eurozone banks have agreed to a $10.7 billion USD loan to Greece. The GDP in Greece is $304b. Another way to look at it is there are 11m people in Greece, so this translates into $900 per person.

I've been trying to study the problem with Greece, the Euro, debt, and austerity measures and I can't quite get my head around it.

What I found fascinating was a graph showing the GDP of Greece, and how between 2001 and 2008 it grew fairly well, but since dropped off. Most other countries in Europe are similar, as is the US (though we are now up a little). This makes me wonder what was going on during those six years of strong growth in Greece?

Where did all the money (or should I say "product" or "wealth") go during those six years when the GDP nearly tripled from $125b to $360b? It couldn't have all gone to a few rich people's villas and yachts, or holidays to Euro Disney. What happened on a social level to make the recent drop - which on GDP numbers hasn't been that precipitous, so damaging to where huge austerity measures are met with rioting?

Finally, what do people in Greece believe an $11b investment should be spent on to jump start growth in the country? I don't know enough about the country to make more than a guess (tourism, infrastructure?).

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showpost.php?p=733372&postcount=11950

The growth in GDP was not "real", just as it wasn't real in the US or the UK. It was performance enhanced by the borrowing of huge sums of money.

I'll make a pointless bet with you: I bet that you or I could take over any business with a turnover of $10m and using a $1bn loan, ensure that it increases its turnover within two years.

Would we be able to make an operating profit? Probably. Would we be able to make the interest payments on the loan? Maybe, for a while. Would we be able to pay the loan off? Probably not.

 

[rhubroma]

I trust rhubroma on this as he actually lives in Italy, but when I read that, I immediately thought of the Strait of Messina Bridge to connect from Reggio Calabria to Sicily that is presently getting built and is estimated to cost up to €6.1b, do such projects like this one be considered a white elephant or justified given this is part of Italy is one of the poorest socio-economic regions in Italy (think back to the '30's where illiteracy was common in Sicily), and therefore creating thousands of direct and in-direct jobs?

First of all the bridge is not being built. They haven't built anything yet, and proabbaly never will. The Strait of Messina Bridge, which was pure political rhetoric, was dead in the water before the project was ever even planned.

Berlusconi, who was the West's worst political incarnation of our populist, consumer and market driven society, made electoral promises of "big development projects," like the bridge across the Strait, as pure propaganda and ideological fantasy. This was in keeping with his construction business magnate, and then media empire, mentality. The one that said the country is just another business too and so can be run like one. His Forza Italia political party was going to infuse a breath of fresh air in the cumbersome and outmoded Italian business environment, or so he claimed, whereas Berlusconi was the paladin of free enterprise and civil liberty among the Italians either willing, or stupid enough, to be cast under his spell. Never mind that Italy had no way of financing such a project and the EU, even then, certainly wasn't going to provide the missing funds. So it was all a great ploy, that ended up costing the Italian tax payers over a billion euro. And never mind that Berlusconi himself was under a number of judicial investigations ranging from tax evasion, to coercion and bribery. His loyal Berluscones bought all of the BS wholesale, hook, line and sinker, believing what they were told by him and through his television and newspaper outlets, that any opposition or dissent was merely the orca of a left-wing, communist conspiracy to put him in jail and enslave the Italian masses, thus denying them the "freedom" only he was capable of providing.

So Berlusconi's legacy, which endured nearly 20 years and isn't over yet, even if he has fallen from power; is one reason Italy is unfit to be in an economic partnership with nations like Germany, Holland and Finland.

The 3 other reasons are more deep rooted culturally and historically: 1) rampant tax evasion (Italy has the highest level of unpaid taxes of Europe, only 51% of all taxable income actually gets paid); 2) the Catholic Church (none of the Vatican's business activities in Italy are taxed by the Italian state and none of its vast land holdings - the largest real estate owner in the country - are beholden to pay property taxes, collectively amounting to losses for Italy in the billions each year. And this was the result of an accord between Italy and the papacy in 1929 when the fascists were in power, called the Lateran Pact.; 3) the mafia (which de facto controls the entire south politically and economically - with over billions of euro that the clans make annually that aren't subjected to a fiscal levy, which is another crime against the lawful and upstanding Italian society - and which also has control of a number of important businesses in Rome, Milan and throughout the north as well.

It isn't at all surprising that Berlusconi by his example and things he actually said - such as recently when the magistracy proposed making all transactions of over 300 euro mandatorily done electronically for reasons of traceability, he said such would amount to living under an oppressive fiscal regime - has even encouraged something, number 1), that the Italians don't need any encouragement for. What Italy badly needs is more fiscal traceability, while the real tyranny is evasion. Also not surprising was that Berlusconi and his government were always supported by the hierarchs of numbers 2) and 3). The Vatican because they could count on his majority's pro-catholic policies. One of the reasons why the left has had great difficulty in staying in power in Italy is because it has proposed things like holding the Vatican responsible for paying sales tax to Italy on the things that its businesses profit from in Italy, and thus the Vatican has always been either diffident or openly hostile to the left wing coalitions. By contrast a multi-divorced libertarian, such as Berlusconi, who went against every moral code of the Catholic Church, had been welcomed with open arms by the Vatican, which is naturally appalling. Lastly Berlusconi has been linked to several mafia accords, both politically and for his businesses, even if the Italian judicial system has never been able to condemn him for these things. Of course these numbers 1), 2), and 3) go beyond the man, though his predomination over Italian politics over the last two decades or so, is directly related to the illegality, hypocrisy, corruption, mendacity and baseness, that prevails within a certain part of Italian society and these institutions.

Now how can a country with these problems, both historical and more recent, be able to participate civilly and economically, in the same European Union as those other members mentioned above? Then, of course, Italy's fiscal problems already existed before the common European currency. But when there was the lira, the government could practically offset them through the devaluation of its currency, which made Italian products more attractive abroad and so Italy could economically grow its way out of the crisis. Such is no longer the case under the euro, however.

Finally, it must be said that there are many Italians who realize the colossal entities that loom over their society like giant beasts and which make changing Italy a nearly impossible task. So they just shake their heads in sheer exasperation, protest when they can and refuse to be willing accomplices, but there is only so much, which is insignificantly little, that they can actually do. So I don’t look at places like Germany, Holland and Finland as being superior to Italy in this sense, though they have a civil heritage that’s more developed and they don't have the handicap of having to contend with the powers of the Vatican and the mafia, which has provided them with a different background and preparation for entering into a common currency union such as Europe’s.

This is why I have always disapproved of any union strictly based upon currency exchange and economic growth. In principle, culturally and socially. There are too many differences and divisions in Europe for it to work well.

 

[blutto]

Eurozone banks have agreed to a $10.7 billion USD loan to Greece. The GDP in Greece is $304b. Another way to look at it is there are 11m people in Greece, so this translates into $900 per person.

I've been trying to study the problem with Greece, the Euro, debt, and austerity measures and I can't quite get my head around it.

What I found fascinating was a graph showing the GDP of Greece, and how between 2001 and 2008 it grew fairly well, but since dropped off. Most other countries in Europe are similar, as is the US (though we are now up a little). This makes me wonder what was going on during those six years of strong growth in Greece?

Where did all the money (or should I say "product" or "wealth") go during those six years when the GDP nearly tripled from $125b to $360b? It couldn't have all gone to a few rich people's villas and yachts, or holidays to Euro Disney. What happened on a social level to make the recent drop - which on GDP numbers hasn't been that precipitous, so damaging to where huge austerity measures are met with rioting?

Finally, what do people in Greece believe an $11b investment should be spent on to jump start growth in the country? I don't know enough about the country to make more than a guess (tourism, infrastructure?).

....you've kinda nudged up against one of the mysteries of this particular economic crisis, which is why the solutions are just so wrong headed and frankly anti-capitalist....

...the wrong headed part is the push for austerity...whereas any economist who has a pulse ( including a slew of Nobel laureates ) is saying growth is the way out of debt, the powers that be have done everything that could be done to shut down growth ( the push to austerity virtually guarantees a lack of growth )...

...and the anti-capitalist part....make a big effort to save the incompetants (and their shareholders ) who vapourized trillions of dollars of ordinary peoples accummulated capital that is the cornerstone of growth ( we are a consumer society after-all )...and note that these incompetants are engaged in nothing close to entrapeneurship or wealth creation but rather just money manipulation and who in the long run are simply not concerned with wealth creation ( see the stories recently about how banks can't be bothered to deal with people or small businesses which are actually the things that drive economies ).....and what industies that are being pushed by these incompetants are those that either have really bad multiplier effects ( military spending ), big pharma and the medical industries ( which are either patent driven monopolies or operations with obscenely high nonproductive administrative overheads) or energy production systems that are either going to cost too much real soon ( the peak oil concept ) or destroy huge parts of our planet ( oil leaks in the oceans and radioactive leaks on land ) and will eventually destroy the whole eco-system we ( and the operative term is we ) are based on...

..so instead of being smart capitalists we are hell bent on doing something that makes no sense economically....and as an extra added added bonus this path is destroying democracy as we have grown to know it ( or maybe imagined we knew it )....

...and as you point out in a later post this has the potential to end really badly....as in, those riots you mention as a possible outcome...but no-one in power seems to be able to harness the huge wealth we have ( we are a much more productive system now than we were decades ago ) to change things for the better....

...this economic system we have now has the same mindset that would produce the following bit of folly...

http://www.backcountry.com/backcountry-access-float-30-winter-pack-1830cu-in

...we need an Alexander to solve our economic Gordian knot problem...

Cheers

blutto

 

[Amsterhammer]

....

...we need an Alexander to solve our economic Gordian knot problem...

Cheers

blutto

Thanks for that positive, hopeful contribution. Here's more good news on the economic front.

EU entering 'critical period' to resolve debt crisis

EU finance ministers are meeting in Brussels after a top official said the region had just days to take decisive action to resolve the crisis.

EU Monetary Affairs Commissioner Olli Rehn said: "We are now entering the critical period of 10 days to complete and conclude the crisis response".

The meeting comes a day after eurozone ministers agreed measures to expand the region's bailout fund.

But they said it was unlikely to hit its 1tn euro ($1.3tn; £860bn) target.

Meanwhile, the latest figures from the European Central Bank (ECB) show that eurozone banks are becoming increasingly nervous about lending to each other.

(more)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-15958461

 

[blutto]

...just a bit of political humour...

http://www.thenation.com/video/164739/video-we-need-occupy-our-democracy

Cheers

blutto

 

[ramjambunath]

Cable operators block BBC in Pakistan

Riding the wave of anger over last weekend’s North Atlantic Treaty Organisation (NATO) attacks on Pakistan Army border posts, cable operators across the country have threatened to block any international channel that carries anti-Pakistan content while taking BBC off the air for its documentary 'Secret Pakistan’.

Cable operators began shutting down transmission of BBC’s World News late on Tuesday night and the unofficial ban remained through the day on Wednesday. Other international news networks like CNN, Fox News and Sky News were running uninterrupted amid reports suggesting that the Pakistan Electronic Media Regulatory Authority (PEMRA) may summon BBC for an explanation.

http://www.thehindu.com/news/international/article2674326.ece?homepage=true

Interesting read on South Sudan and Lundin Oil
http://allafrica.com/stories/201111290229.html

If only Shell had strict standards imposed on them.

 

[VeloCity]

For those who still consider Reagan a hero, the 25th anniversary of Iran-Contra should serve to remind what a slimeball he really was.

http://www.esquire.com/blogs/politics/iran-contra-anniversary-6601916

 

[Cobblestones]

Meanwhile, in other parts of the world..... Breivik has been declared legally insane,

I was quite surprised by that, because the diagnosis was paranoid schizophrenia, when everything I have read so far seemed to indicate a narcissistic personality disorder. Then I remembered that this diagnosis does not exist in the ICD 10 which is in use in Europe, (we use DSM IV, where NPD is a sub category). As I understand Breivik does not have hallucinations which would be a very important symptom when diagnosing schizophrenia.

 

[redtreviso]

""Before 2008, the zeitgeist was deregulation, and Wall Street succeeded in getting deregulation. Frank Partnoy calculated for me that in 1980, 98 percent of financial assets traded in our economy were traded subject to the normal rules of transparency, anti-fraud requirements, basic exchange-based rules of the New Deal. By 2008, 90 percent of the assets traded were traded invisibly because they were not subject to any of these basic requirements of transparency and anti-fraud exchange-based obligations.


This falls in the category of obvious-but-frequently-overlooked-facts that we all need to keep repeating. And the larger context is worth emphasizing, too, even at the cost of further repetition. Every discussion about the economic crash of 2007-2009, which was touched off by a massive financial crisis, should begin with the striking fact that there were no serious financial crises in the United States between the New Deal and the beginning of the Reagan administration. This was no accident. During the 1930s a remarkably intelligent set of regulations was enacted to cover banking and the rest of the financial sector, and it worked.""

http://www.dissentmagazine.org/atw.php?id=619

 

[Cobblestones]

The US and Britain supported their guy the Shah to keep the socialists and the fumndamentalists from gaining control of the state. They succeeded in their first misson, though obviouly not in the second.

One wonders, what would Iran be like today had the socialists gotten into power?

Actually, they didn't succeed with their first goal either, since they got Bani Sadr, an islamic leftist (which was later deposed by the theocracy).

Anyway, the US-Iran situation has been messed up for some 80 years now.