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World Politics

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BroDeal said:
The same reason the U.S. is overspending.

It was a tactic that worked.

I might mention that I was irritated that we did not finish the first Iraq war by taking out Saddam - the problem was that too many were worried that the UN would be upset if we did not stop when we pushed them out of Kuwait.

I would have been ok with us leaving after we got Saddam the second time but too many were worried about the destruction and who would come to power (easily solved - threaten our county and we go in and remove the threat, you work out how to deal with the destruction).

No question that we needed to remove Saddam, and I also believe that by staying we have prevented a huge amount of internal violence but I certainly would have been ok with our getting out after we finally finished the job. Of course if diplomacy worked either time there would have been no war.
 
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BroDeal said:
The same reason the U.S. is overspending.

All my chips are on the table now... I'm guessing you are public school educated and recieved straight A's in History. Am I correct?
 
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Scott SoCal said:
To try and keep pace with what Reagan was doing.. anyone remember 'star-wars' or the precursor to Patriot Missle tchnology (among other things). Reagan knew his opponent, knew our capacity and drove the Russians into the ground (financially) winning the cold war without firing a shot.

I'm guessing this isn't taught in public schools?

I am sure that 1956 Budapest and 1968 Checkoslovakia are not important enough to be reviewed in the history books since it might suggest that the were reasons for a cold war in the first place.
 
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CentralCaliBike said:
I am sure that 1956 Budapest and 1968 Checkoslovakia are not important enough to be reviewed in the history books since it might suggest that the were reasons for a cold war in the first place.

Well, who's in charge of public school curriculum? Are you at all surprised?
 
Since Scott is fond of quoting reams of often unrelated articles, here is some stuff just for him.


The United States is unique today among major states in the degree of its reliance on military spending, and its determination to stand astride the world, militarily as well as economically. No other country in the post–Second World War world has been so globally destructive or inflicted so many war fatalities. Since 2001, acknowledged U.S. national defense spending has increased by almost 60 percent in real dollar terms to a level in 2007 of $553 billion.

...Based on official figures, the United States is reported by the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute (SIPRI) as accounting for 45 percent of world military expenditures. Yet, so gargantuan and labyrinthine are U.S. military expenditures that the above grossly understates their true magnitude, which, as we shall see below, reached $1 trillion in 2007.1
...
"Frankly, I can’t make sense of what has happened in the United States since 9/11 that enabled a group of political crazies to realize long-held plans for an unaccompanied solo performance of world supremacy....Today a radical right-wing regime seeks to mobilize “true Americans” against some evil outside force and against a world that does not recognize the uniqueness, the superiority, the manifest destiny of America....

In effect, the most obvious danger of war today arises from the global ambitions of an uncontrollable and apparently irrational government in Washington....To give America the best chance of learning to return from megalomania to rational foreign policy is the most immediate and urgent task of international politics."3
...
Government-pump priming operations therefore occurred largely through spending on wars and war preparations in the service of empire. The Pentagon naturally made sure that bases and armaments industries were spread around the United States and that numerous corporations profited from military spending, thus maximizing congressional support due to the effects on states and districts.11
...
This entire built-in military system could not be relinquished without relinquishing empire. Indeed, the chief importance of U.S. military power from the early Cold War years to today has been that it is used—either directly, resulting in millions of deaths (counting those who died in the Korean War, the Vietnam War, the Gulf War, the Kosovo War, the Afghanistan and Iraq Wars, as well as dozens of lesser conflicts), or indirectly, as a means to intimidate.17
...
The decade and a half since the fall of the Soviet Union has confirmed the accuracy of this assessment. The euphoria of the “peace dividend” following the end of the Cold War evaporated almost immediately in the face of new imperial requirements. This was a moment of truth for U.S. capitalism, demonstrating how deeply entrenched were its military-imperial interests. By the end of the 1990s U.S. military spending, which had been falling, was on its way up again.

Today, in what has been called a “unipolar world,” U.S. military spending for purposes of empire is rapidly expanding—to the point that it rivals that of the entire rest of the world put together. When it is recognized that most of the other top ten military-spending nations are U.S. allies or junior partners, it makes the U.S. military ascendancy even more imposing.
...
The Bush administration from the first was distinguished by the particularly bellicose group of neoconservatives at its helm. But in pursuing their belligerent ends they hardly lacked solid backing within the circles of power. Strong support was extended by both political parties, Congress, the judiciary, the media, and the corporations generally.

Disagreements were largely about troop levels, the amount of force to be applied, relations to allies, dates of withdrawal (partial or whole), distribution of forces between the major “theaters,” etc. More fundamental questions, even the use of torture, were avoided. Major dissent has mainly come from the bottom of the society.

All of this suggests that expanded militarism and imperialism is deeply entrenched at present, at least within the top echelons of U.S. society. It reflects a general concern to expand U.S. hegemony as part of an imperial grand strategy, including rolling back insurgent forces and “rogue states” around the world, and keeping junior partners in line.

The war in Iraq is best viewed as an attempt to assert U.S. geopolitical control over the entire Persian Gulf and its oil—an objective that both political wings of the establishment support, and which is part of the larger aim of the restoration of a grand U.S. hegemony.27

The vast scale of U.S. military spending—encompassing more than 50 percent of the federal budget (excluding social security, medicare, and other transfer payments) and constituting 7 percent of the entire GDP—is thus externally rooted in the needs of the U.S. imperial grand strategy, which continually strains the U.S. system to its limits (as measured by the budget and trade deficits).

U.S. imperialism has been transformed in recent decades by the absence of the Soviet Union, giving the United States more immediate power (particularly in the military realm), coupled, paradoxically, with signs of a secular decline in U.S. economic hegemony. It is this dual reality of a temporary increase in U.S. power along with indications of its long-term decline that has led to urgent calls throughout the power elite for a “New American Century,” and to attempts by Washington to leverage its enormous military power to regain economic and geopolitical strength, for example, in the Persian Gulf oil region.

In recent years, the United States has enormously expanded its military bases and operations around the world with bases now in around seventy countries and U.S. troops present in various capacities (including joint exercises) in perhaps twice that number. Washington is thus not just spending money on the military and producing destructive weapons, or engaging in wars and interventions. It is also building a lasting physical presence around the world that allows for control/subversion/rapid deployment.28
...
It was the monopoly media, far more concentrated than in Luce’s day and now virtually indistinguishable from monopoly-finance capital (becoming simply its public voice), that came to the rescue of U.S. war capitalism in its moment of need, giving credence to its obvious lies. “The press,” as one of us has written, “was [soon] eating out of the Bush administration’s bowl.”30

In a period of economic stagnation, financial crisis, declining hegemony, impending environmental collapse, and new populist insurgencies, Washington, representing the U.S. oligarchy as a whole, was once again able to enlist the media monopoly in the marshaling of public opinion in support of the imperial project through the promotion of war hysteria.

What made this possible was the prior existence of a well-oiled, privatized propaganda system designed to limit the range of legitimate debate in the mainstream media. In this system even the outer reaches of the quite timid liberal punditocracy were strictly walled-in to fit within the proscribed boundaries of elite debate. Today fundamental dissent toward the existence of the military-imperial system, no matter how thoughtful or well-informed, is decidedly off-limits, except for periodic ridicule. Ours is decidedly a “military-industrial-media complex.”31

Nevertheless, the imperial triangle is now increasingly confronted with its own contradictions. As Baran and Sweezy foresaw more than four decades ago in Monopoly Capital, the U.S. military system faced two major internal obstacles. First, military spending tended to be technologically intensive and hence its employment stimulating effect was decreasing.

“Ironically,” they observed, “the huge military outlays of today may even be contributing substantially to an increase of unemployment: many of the new technologies which are byproducts of military research and development are also applicable to civilian production, where they are quite likely to have the effect of raising productivity and reducing the demand for labor.” Second, expansion of “weapons of total destruction” and the devastating effects of the use of more powerful weapons, could be expected to generate a growing rebellion against the permanent war economy at all levels of society, as people perceived the dangers of global barbarism (or worse, annihilation).32

Today the enormous weight of Washington’s war machine has not prevented it from being stretched to its limits while becoming bogged down in Iraq and Afghanistan. Although still capable of great destruction, the United States is significantly limited in its ability to deploy massive force to achieve its ends whenever and wherever it wishes.

The dream of Pax Americana, first presented by John F. Kennedy at the height of the Cold War, has turned into the nightmare of Pox Americana in the years of waning U.S. dominance. The role the media monopoly has assumed in recent years in the promotion of war propaganda has contributed to the rapid growth of a media reform movement, which is now challenging the concentration of communications in the United States.33

There is no doubt that a society that supports its global position and social order through $1 trillion a year in military spending, most likely far exceeding that of all the other countries in the world put together, unleashing untold destruction on the world, while faced with intractable problems of inequality, economic stagnation, financial crisis, poverty, waste, and environmental decline at home, is a society that is ripe for change. It is our task to change it.
 
Scott SoCal said:
Memory alert!!

That's of course that peeriod of time when Al Qaeda was at war with us when the Commander-in-Chief was more interested in (potential) DNA on a dress (I'm paraphrasing from the 9/11 commission report, the Al Qaeda part not the dress part).

Al Queda??? Al Queda is a few rag tag discontents living in caves and nineteenth century--if that--huts in the wilderness and a few intellectuals living normal lives with normal jobs who are indinguishable from anyone else. Most of what little threat there is would simply disappear if the U.S. stopped propping up the corrupt Saudi Arabian monarchy.

CentralCalBike said:
I might mention that I was irritated that we did not finish the first Iraq war by taking out Saddam - the problem was that too many were worried that the UN would be upset if we did not stop when we pushed them out of Kuwait.

Yeah, too bad that the first President Bush, who had actually gone to war himself, recognized what a tar baby Iraq was and refused to continue into Iraq. Otherwise, the neocons could have bankrupted us ten years earlier.

CentralCalBike said:
I would have been ok with us leaving after we got Saddam the second time but too many were worried about the destruction and who would come to power (easily solved - threaten our county and we go in and remove the threat, you work out how to deal with the destruction).

Let me guess. You worked in the Iraq war planning department for Donald Rumsfeld, where you did not actually do "work" in the conventional sense. It was more like sleeping in between watching reruns of Walker: Texas Ranger.
 
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BroDeal said:
Since Scott is fond of quoting reams of often unrelated articles, here is some stuff just for him.

Here's some stuff for you,


How much did the September 11 terrorist attack cost America?



"Counting the value of lives lost as well as property damage and lost production of goods and services, losses already exceed $100 billion. Including the loss in stock market wealth -- the market's own estimate arising from expectations of lower corporate profits and higher discount rates for economic volatility -- the price tag approaches $2 trillion."

Who needs the stinkin' military?
 
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BroDeal said:
Al Queda??? Al Queda is a few rag tag discontents living in caves and nineteenth century--if that--huts in the wilderness and a few intellectuals living normal lives with normal jobs who are indinguishable from anyone else. Most of what little threat there is would simply disappear if the U.S. stopped propping up the corrupt Saudi Arabian monarchy.

A $4.5B aircraft, about the entire yearly military budget of Iran, carrier does nothing to combat Al Queda.

Remind me again, who attacked us on 9/11?

So, there it is, for all to see... 9/11 is our fault. Thanks for demonstrating what most thinking people already knew.
 
Scott SoCal said:
Here's some stuff for you,


How much did the September 11 terrorist attack cost America?



"Counting the value of lives lost as well as property damage and lost production of goods and services, losses already exceed $100 billion. Including the loss in stock market wealth -- the market's own estimate arising from expectations of lower corporate profits and higher discount rates for economic volatility -- the price tag approaches $2 trillion."

Jeebus. Do you even think about the crap that you spam to this thread. Try taking the size of the U.S. economy, computing the fraction that $2T would be, and then coming up with some fanciful way that figure is remotely accurate.
 
Scott SoCal said:
To try and keep pace with what Reagan was doing.. anyone remember 'star-wars' or the precursor to Patriot Missle tchnology (among other things). Reagan knew his opponent, knew our capacity and drove the Russians into the ground (financially) winning the cold war without firing a shot.

LOL. Not that old chestnut. :rolleyes:
 
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Anonymous

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Scott SoCal said:
All my chips are on the table now... I'm guessing you are public school educated and recieved straight A's in History. Am I correct?

I did, and what of it? In fact, I have a degree in Political Science and History and graduated Magna Cum Laude from a public institution. I have never seen that as a hindrance in any way. I guess you do?
 
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BroDeal said:
Jeebus. Do you even think about the crap that you spam to this thread. Try taking the size of the U.S. economy, computing the fraction that $2T would be, and then coming up with some fanciful way that figure is remotely accurate.

Well, yeah. Once again, the point was to show there is a flip side to shredding the military, which you seem more than willing to do. If you dispute there was an economic impact of the 9/11 attacks then you are in conflict with even the most rabid left-leaning apologists.



A detailed report with outlined methodologies;

http://www.milkeninstitute.org/pdf/National_Metro_Impact_Report.pdf

A summary that lnks the above report;

http://www.iags.org/costof911.html

More recent Stanford study;

http://www.stanford.edu/~nbloom/uncertaintyshocks_SIEPR.pdf


What seems clear is that there was a significant financial impact but real numbers are impossible to calculate. What seems self-evident is that everyone should be in favor of preventing this from happening again.

Asking the terrorist not to attack us is probably not the best solution.
 
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Thoughtforfood said:
I did, and what of it? In fact, I have a degree in Political Science and History and graduated Magna Cum Laude from a public institution. I have never seen that as a hindrance in any way. I guess you do?


The other guy was dead-on with his historical recollection. I was merely trying to give props to public education.
 
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Thoughtforfood said:
I present to you, the Republican Nominee for the 2012 Presidential election, Sarah Palin: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/geoffrey-dunn/palins-latest-emrogueem-g_b_373453.html

I will honestly give up on our country if she wins. She is not smarter than a 5th grader.

haha that quote, put me off at first... I accidentally read Cheney instead of Cheyenne :D

Our land is everything to us. It is the only place in the world where Cheneys talk the Cheney language to each other. It is the only place where Cheney remember the same things together. I will tell you one of the things we remember on our land. We remember our grandfathers paid for it--with their life. My people and the Bouche's defeated General Hussein at the Tigris and the Euphrates.
 
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BroDeal said:
Al Queda??? Al Queda is a few rag tag discontents living in caves and nineteenth century--if that--huts in the wilderness and a few intellectuals living normal lives with normal jobs who are indinguishable from anyone else. Most of what little threat there is would simply disappear if the U.S. stopped propping up the corrupt Saudi Arabian monarchy.

So, as a student of recent history, how well did that plan work in Iran and Afghanistan? I have no problem in allowing a country to tear itself apart (Afghanistan ~ and Iraq if we had left right after picking up Saddam) as long as they do not support a threat, too bad for the liberals (generally known as moderates in the rest of the world) in Iran though.

BroDeal said:
Yeah, too bad that the first President Bush, who had actually gone to war himself, recognized what a tar baby Iraq was and refused to continue into Iraq. Otherwise, the neocons could have bankrupted us ten years earlier.

The first President Bush did not avoid Iraq because of a concern that he wanted to keep the "Coalition" together.
 
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Thoughtforfood said:
I present to you, the Republican Nominee for the 2012 Presidential election, Sarah Palin: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/geoffrey-dunn/palins-latest-emrogueem-g_b_373453.html

I will honestly give up on our country if she wins. She is not smarter than a 5th grader.

And the current administration is not prone to geographic, historical, and political gaffs? Vice President Biden could fill a book and I have listened to some rather entertaining clips of the President's blunders as well. Of course Hillary makes most of hers talking about the certain danger she faced traveling around the world for her husband President while arriving under sniper fire.
 
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CentralCaliBike said:
And the current administration is not prone to geographic, historical, and political gaffs? Vice President Biden could fill a book and I have listened to some rather entertaining clips of the President's blunders as well. Of course Hillary makes most of hers talking about the certain danger she faced traveling around the world for her husband President while arriving under sniper fire.

See, you are in terribly dangerous waters here. A lie is only a lie when told by conservatives. Have you learned nothing?

BTW, how about that war-monger we have in the White House? What a speech. I finally get what Chris Matthews was talking about.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=no9fpKVXxCc
 
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Anonymous

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Well there is at least one person on this planet who has not lost their sense of humor.

Global Norming Concensus Proves Climate Strange Is Real
December 2nd, 2009 by admin
Using a highly reliable measuring system know as the five senses, human beings in their billions have come to the conclusion, that the only certainty about the weather on planet earth, is that it keeps on changing in very strange ways. Some times hot, sometimes cold, sometimes wet, sometimes dry. This mind blowing discovery that affects all our lives has been dubbed Global Norming. Otherwise know as Climate Strange. What effects this will have on future generations nobody knows, but one thing everyone agrees on is that the effects of Global Norming will be devastating.

To help alleviate the terrifying effects of Climate Strange a panel of experts has been formed to collate scientific research from around the world into a series of reports to the United Nations, detailing exactly how strange Global Norming might be. As a result it has been found without doubt, through a data modelling process called normalisation, that the normality of strange climatic behaviour will continue for ever.

Everyone with a brain and even those without, now agree that this will result in the complete annihilation of mankind at an unknown point in the future. To ensure that this does not occur a system of global governance or Globatorship has been formed to organise the pre-annihilation of all peoples likely to be affected by the devastating effects of Climate Strange – which politicians agree will occur in direct relation to the amount pigmentation in their skin and/or money in their bank account or pocket.

This is to be financed by a Hardon tax that will help facilitate the study of the constantly rising and falling temparature and moisture levels at the very center of the Global Norming phenomena. But opposition is mounting as humans and animals alike, complain that Hardon is essential to all life on earth. But the absense of Hardon in the creation of plant life and in the upper atmosphere has left the pro-human lobby without a voice at the negotiating table.

Agreement on action to combat Climate Strange, is being sought at the highest levels at a summit in Copenhagen, where world leaders are meeting to discuss how far they are willing to go to save the planet. Through a show of normal behaviour that includes blocking out all information to the five senses, while demonstrating their own Hardon emission limits, they hope to convince each other and the world that Climate Strange can be controlled by the members of a coming Globatorship.

However concerns are growing that Global Norming theory is a sham after scientists were caught acting extreme abnormally themselves, by falsifying results and corrupting the review process to get more funding. The climatology community has rallied round, stating that this is in fact perfectly normal behaviour for scientists and therefore confirms the Global Norming hypothesis, even as their credibility continues to melt.

Despite this, world leaders are attempting to reassure the public that should Hardon emmissions exceed mandated levels, the merging of the EU and the UN into an EUgeNic Globatorship will guarantee pre-annihilation for all, after the capture and trading of emissions, before Global Norming gets out of control and things become even more strange.

Please forward this message via links and emails to all the presidents, prime-ministers, senators, commissars, member of parliament, ambassadors, rabbis, priests, imans, gurus and real people that you know, to help them understand the absurdity of the United Nations climate change agenda and open their senses to the strange climatological normality that is the weather.
 
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Hmmm, looks like the wheels are starting to fall off the climate change train...

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/jamesdelingpole/100018556/climategate-its-all-unravelling-now/

Interesting take on who's behind the push for green technologies;

http://www.infowars.com/climategate-deniers-in-denial/

We can only hope to be so lucky here;

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091202/ap_on_re_as/climate_australia

Poor ol' Phil Jones...

http://www.uea.ac.uk/mac/comm/media/press/2009/nov/homepagenews/CRUupdate
 
CentralCaliBike said:
The first President Bush did not avoid Iraq because of a concern that he wanted to keep the "Coalition" together.

GHWB recognized the human costs that invading Iraq would cause. He also realized that we would get bogged down, be there for an undetermined number of years, and ultimately lose the world wide support we enjoyed. The coalition paid for most of the Gulf War. The effect on the U.S. economy was minimal. Of course this was a president who invented the term "voodoo economics" and recognized what a complete load of crap Reagan's financial mumbo jumbo was. For that the Republicans abandoned him because he was not right wing enough.

GWB used a completely different strategy: He borrowed the money from the Chinese, which currently gives them control of our short hairs. He could not even convince Saudi Arabia to let us use their military bases. GWB was too stupid to even ask his father, a man who had not only been President and Vice President and director of the CIA, but had also gone to war with Iraq himself and personally fought in a war, for advice. Instead he relied on appeals to imaginary spirits.
 
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BroDeal said:
GHWB recognized the human costs that invading Iraq would cause. He also realized that we would get bogged down, be there for an undetermined number of years, and ultimately lose the world wide support we enjoyed. The coalition paid for most of the Gulf War. The effect on the U.S. economy was minimal. Of course this was a president who invented the term "voodoo economics" and recognized what a complete load of crap Reagan's financial mumbo jumbo was. For that the Republicans abandoned him because he was not right wing enough.

GWB used a completely different strategy: He borrowed the money from the Chinese, which currently gives them control of our short hairs. He could not even convince Saudi Arabia to let us use their military bases. GWB was too stupid to even ask his father, a man who had not only been President and Vice President and director of the CIA, but had also gone to war with Iraq himself and personally fought in a war, for advice. Instead he relied on appeals to imaginary spirits.

And where is Saddam? I believe he was still in Iraq after the first war - for some reason I thought things did not go so well for him in the second. I am not a huge Bush family supporter for a number of reasons but GW at least finished with Saddam, something his father neglected to do.
 
Scott SoCal said:
Well, yeah. Once again, the point was to show there is a flip side to shredding the military, which you seem more than willing to do. If you dispute there was an economic impact of the 9/11 attacks then you are in conflict with even the most rabid left-leaning apologists.

A detailed report with outlined methodologies;

http://www.milkeninstitute.org/pdf/National_Metro_Impact_Report.pdf

A summary that lnks the above report;

http://www.iags.org/costof911.html

More recent Stanford study;

http://www.stanford.edu/~nbloom/uncertaintyshocks_SIEPR.pdf


What seems clear is that there was a significant financial impact but real numbers are impossible to calculate. What seems self-evident is that everyone should be in favor of preventing this from happening again.

Again, do you even read the crap you post? The itemized total in the links is $100B. The handwaving to produce a supposed total of $2T counts a temporary stock market decline, which only takes a moment of thought to realize is bogus. If you want to include the stock market then we should include the stock market decline in 2007. The world wide total was a $13T loss. Bush's financial distanster cost in 2008 cost trillions in market losses. Maybe we should beef up the military to prevent another Bush brother from gaining the Whitehouse.
 
CentralCaliBike said:
And where is Saddam? I believe he was still in Iraq after the first war - for some reason I thought things did not go so well for him in the second. I am not a huge Bush family supporter for a number of reasons but GW at least finished with Saddam, something his father neglected to do.

Because his father was smart enough to recognize the cost. Cost is something modern conservatives have no concept of.

In 2003 Saddam was spending his time hidden away in his palaces writing romance novels. He was not a danger to the U.S. or the region.
 
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BroDeal said:
Again, do you even read the crap you post? The itemized total in the links is $100B. The handwaving to produce a supposed total of $2T counts a temporary stock market decline, which only takes a moment of thought to realize is bogus. If you want to include the stock market then we should include the stock market decline in 2007. The world wide total was a $13T loss. Bush's financial distanster cost in 2008 cost trillions in market losses. Maybe we should beef up the military to prevent another Bush brother from gaining the Whitehouse.

I think you missed this part.

What seems clear is that there was a significant financial impact but real numbers are impossible to calculate. What seems self-evident is that everyone should be in favor of preventing this from happening again.

Asking the terrorist not to attack us is probably not the best solution.



Remind me again how much the debt has increased since Bush has been out of office?
 
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