World Politics

[rhubroma]

You make an important point. I guess where each of us fit on the scale is, as rhubroma says, the problem with modern politics but also politics since day dot. The position on that scale defines our ideologies.

Nope, the real problem is what happens when the center becomes radical extremism? This is what is usually passed off today as moderate and liberal, for which we then arrive back to caruut’s perspicacious analysis.

 

[auscyclefan94]

Ooh, my last post was #13000 for the thread.

 

[Mad Elephant Man]

Ooh, my last post was #13000 for the thread.

How is your last post number 13000 for this thread?

 

[auscyclefan94]

How is your last post number 13000 for this thread?

Because it says so in the thread. You can't use the number outside the thread as a post count because that does not include the starting thread post.

 

[Mad Elephant Man]

Because it says so in the thread. You can't use the number outside the thread as a post count because that does not include the starting thread post.

When I look at this thread the number #13000 does not appear in the top right hand corner of one of your posts.

 

[Zam_Olyas]

I think this sums up it rather well

rimane sempre un paese spaccato in due: destra-sinistra, nord-sud, arroganti-umili, belli-brutti, alti-bassi... noi- voi!

 

[SafeBet]

Not sure right and left make much sense at this point. Not for the young generation at least.

I'd say the major dicotomy right now is old vs young, for a variety of reasons.

 

[Vino attacks everyone]

I will not sleep well the next couple of days, until a new popeti pope is choosen

Oh wait, we still got the orthodox and the coptic one

 

[Caruut]

Not sure right and left make much sense at this point. Not for the young generation at least.

I'd say the major dicotomy right now is old vs young, for a variety of reasons.

Right and left have always been thoroughly inadequate tools to describe political opinion, which is perhaps why they have for so long been favoured by the media.

There are many major dichotomies existing in the world today.

"First world" vs "Third world" is a crucially important one
Young vs old as you say
Those in favour of personal liberty vs those believing in absolute morality
Those who believe in more positive economic freedom vs those who believe in more negative economic freedom
Many societies are divided along racial grounds
Different religions form a major important role
Those who believe in more security vs those who believe in more individual liberty

This is why left and right are so inadequate. There are many dimensions to politics and many positions one may hold in each those dimensions. Of course with such a mind-boggling mutil-dimensional political arena two simple labels cannot be enough to describe someone. It's a wonder we ever get anything done at all.

 

[rhubroma]

Right and left have always been thoroughly inadequate tools to describe political opinion, which is perhaps why they have for so long been favoured by the media.

There are many major dichotomies existing in the world today.

"First world" vs "Third world" is a crucially important one
Young vs old as you say
Those in favour of personal liberty vs those believing in absolute morality
Those who believe in more positive economic freedom vs those who believe in more negative economic freedom
Many societies are divided along racial grounds
Different religions form a major important role
Those who believe in more security vs those who believe in more individual liberty

This is why left and right are so inadequate. There are many dimensions to politics and many positions one may hold in each those dimensions. Of course with such a mind-boggling mutil-dimensional political arena two simple labels cannot be enough to describe someone. It's a wonder we ever get anything done at all.

Although the bolded validates the persistent truth in such a dichotomy, however inadequate.

Given that the world is under a financial regime, the point becomes rather moot unfortunately.

Reading the dailies about the lack of governance in Italy, as well as the caustic words of Peer Steinbrueck, the social democratic candidate for the German chancellory regarding the outcome of the Italian electionhttp://www.repubblica.it/speciali/politica/elezioni2013/2013/02/27/news/napolitano_germania-53533636/?ref=HRER1-1 , I'm increasingly convinced of this fact. Young vs. old, consequently, becomes a generation gap that has no solution other than what the implacable mechanisms of finance dictate.

At this point the young can only hope that they become part of a system to which no political praxis can resist, an ineluctable trek toward a new form of absolutism for which there are no alternatives in sight.

 

[Zam_Olyas]

http://www.sabotagetimes.com/politi...tand-up-comedian-who-is-now-italys-front-man/

The writer said he wrote it for those who are not familiar with eyetalian system or eyetaly.

(i have not read it)

 

[Caruut]

Is Grillo the one who's been harassed by Silvio before?

 

[Mad Elephant Man]

If Grillo forces another election will it make him more or less popular?

 

[Eshnar]

If Grillo forces another election will it make him more or less popular?

he won't do it. Not directly that is. He can gain every advantage by staying isolated and just vote law by law according to its party guidelines. Time is playing for him. The left won't ask an alliance with the right (it would be a political suicide), so Grillo's party will decide minute by minute the life of the government. So the left will pretty much be forced to propose and approve only the reforms they share with Grillo's party (there are some), and then we'll go to another election. And I see no reason why Grillo's trend should invert in the next months. the next elections will probably give him the majority at the Chamber. He has almost reached it already. Only 5% more would do it.

 

[SafeBet]

It's not easy to say.
Bersani is looking at Grillo for a vote of confidence. This way there could be a semi-stable government (say for one year) and Partito Democratico would work on 3 or 4 points that Grillo has in its program (cut the number of parliament members, cut politicians' salaries, new electoral law, ecc).

If Grillo says he doesn't care and he will not vote the confidence, I really don't know what's gonna happen. I doubt Bersani will look for Berlusconi's support, it would be a political suicide for his party.
The President of the Republic will then be forced to try a government led by Berlusconi's party (candidate is Alfano). They will not have the confidence.
The President of the Republic will then be forced to try a government led by Grillo. Would Bersani vote the confidence? Possible. But I'm not sure Grillo wants this right now.

Bear in mind that the President of the Republic is in the final 6 months of his mandate, hence he cannot dissolve the Parliament, hence there is no chance of having new elections in the next few months.


At this point everybody is looking at Grillo and hoping he will cooperate. But his first statement was not promising, he said something like Bersani is a (politically) dead man talking. Even in the Movement 5 Stars plenty of people are asking Grillo to cooperate.
If he doesn't do it, my guess is that plenty of people will jump the ship.
But if Bersani then turns to Berlusconi for help and they fail (which is gonna happen pretty soon) Grillo will be stronger than ever, because people will have to believe what he's been praising for years, ie right or left make no difference, they're all thieves.



Sorry for my english, I don't know many techical words for politics. Hope it was clear anyway.

 

[SafeBet]

He can gain every advantage by staying isolated and just vote law by law according to its party guidelines.

But he needs to vote the confidence first. If he doesn't, there's no government whatsoever, so no law by law, nothing.

 

[Eshnar]

But he needs to vote the confidence first. If he doesn't, there's no government whatsoever, so no law by law, nothing.

Ofc he'll vote the confidence. It's a pointless thing anyway. He can make it null at will.

 

[Mad Elephant Man]

Is there an automatic vote of confidence before someone can govern?
Or does the opposition have to move a motion of no confidence?

 

[Eshnar]

Is there an automatic vote of confidence before someone can govern?
Or does the opposition have to move a motion of no confidence?

the confidence vote is compulsory for the new government, as far as I know.

 

[rhubroma]

If Grillo forces another election will it make him more or less popular?

Depends on the outlook. Of course if Italy isn't worse than before, then he’ll be more popular, if yes then worse. So now Grillo must enter into the cold reality of political strategy, which, by the way, was something he vociferously denounced while playing the stopper. This isn’t something he’s acquainted with, nor those that voted for him. Good luck.

 

[SafeBet]

the confidence vote is compulsory for the new government, as far as I know.

It is.

I'm not sure Grillo will vote the confidence with Bersani as Prime Minister. I'm thinking he'd want someone else.

 

[rhubroma]

It's not easy to say.
Bersani is looking at Grillo for a vote of confidence. This way there could be a semi-stable government (say for one year) and Partito Democratico would work on 3 or 4 points that Grillo has in its program (cut the number of parliament members, cut politicians' salaries, new electoral law, ecc).

If Grillo says he doesn't care and he will not vote the confidence, I really don't know what's gonna happen. I doubt Bersani will look for Berlusconi's support, it would be a political suicide for his party.
The President of the Republic will then be forced to try a government led by Berlusconi's party (candidate is Alfano). They will not have the confidence.
The President of the Republic will then be forced to try a government led by Grillo. Would Bersani vote the confidence? Possible. But I'm not sure Grillo wants this right now.

Bear in mind that the President of the Republic is in the final 6 months of his mandate, hence he cannot dissolve the Parliament, hence there is no chance of having new elections in the next few months.


At this point everybody is looking at Grillo and hoping he will cooperate. But his first statement was not promising, he said something like Bersani is a (politically) dead man talking. Even in the Movement 5 Stars plenty of people are asking Grillo to cooperate.
If he doesn't do it, my guess is that plenty of people will jump the ship.
But if Bersani then turns to Berlusconi for help and they fail (which is gonna happen pretty soon) Grillo will be stronger than ever, because people will have to believe what he's been praising for years, ie right or left make no difference, they're all thieves.



Sorry for my english, I don't know many techical words for politics. Hope it was clear anyway.

Quite clear. Beh either Grillo gets a Bersani-Berlusconi flop, or else he must come to the table.

If, on the one hand, he does get a Bersani-Berlusconi flop (likely), while not aligning with the PD, and so wins the next vote, then he must govern.

This seems to me, however, his real dilemma. Since if he must govern then he will be held responsible for the outcome and accountable by all, which isn't something he's prepared for: that is to say to become the same politico politicante as those he has for years so vociferously denounced.

Avrei potuto risponderti in italiano, pero qui non è il caso.

 

[Mad Elephant Man]

the confidence vote is compulsory for the new government, as far as I know.

Makes it interesting then.

If Grillo is smart he can vote confidence in somebody and then only vote for things he wants. That makes him the puppet master unless both the other parties vote together. However I am not sure how that will go over with his supporters, they might see him as selling out so he might not go so well at the next election.
The other way is too try and force an election and hope to get more votes but that might backfire and he might not do so well at that election.

Either way being in a position of power is more than likely going to make him less popular.

 

[SafeBet]

The other way is too try and force an election and hope to get more votes but that might backfire and he might not do so well at that election.

But he cannot force elections right now. That's the problem.
Until Napolitano's mandate is over, we can't have new elections anyway. We can't stay without a government right now, our economy would collapse.


And if Grillo doesn't come to the table even when Bersani offers to work for things Grillo was voted for, then his popularity might decrease.

 

[rhubroma]

Makes it interesting then.

If Grillo is smart he can vote confidence in somebody and then only vote for things he wants. That makes him the puppet master unless both the other parties vote together. However I am not sure how that will go over with his supporters, they might see him as selling out so he might not go so well at the next election.
The other way is too try and force an election and hope to get more votes but that might backfire and he might not do so well at that election.

Either way being in a position of power is more than likely going to make him less popular.

This is, in fact, the worse-case scenario for Grillo: that is being a real force, though not holding power. The intrinsic apparatus of democracy will make this appallingly clear, especially since he built his popular support upon being outside. Estranged.

Now he's in, with the irrevocable consequences that this entails.