World Politics

[Echoes]

Don't forget a lot of victims of this brutal attack in Paris are muslims. And don't forget a lot of muslims fight with us Europeans against IS and for a better world.

Is this meant to be a joke?

Those who really fight against ISIS, are the Hezbollah, Assad's regime, the Hamas and Putin.

We, Europeans, Israeli & Americans have CREATED it and it serves "OUR" interest.

....there is unfortunately the historical fact of Operation Gladio which while publically acknowledged was never investigated and quite possibly never fully shut down....so who really knows if this is a failure....will be interesting to see how the aftermath plays out and who benefits from any changes to French politics that this awful tragedy will produce....

Is it even in doubt now that we are in a new Gladio period?

Youngsters here don't remember it but it was a real violent period that we referred to as the "Years of Lead". Piazza Fontana Attack 1969, Oktoberfest Attack 1980, Station of Bologna Attack 1980. All operations manipulated by the CIA and NATO.

...here's something verrry interesting to ponder over - one of the paris terrorists appears to have been registered as a syrian refugee.

Predictable! This whole migrant crisis was most definitely planned, meant to deprive Arabic nations of potential forces against ISIS (most migrants were Young male adults, able to fight; they might be considered deserter and it's not our role to welcome deserters). That's why the Zionists in Europe encouraged European nations to welcome those migrants (while we don't have enough money to care for all our homeless people and to create jobs for jobless people but suddenly we find money for these migrants). Look at the ferrymen. All from American NGO's (who are not really "non-governmental").

This phenomenon ought not to be confused with the regular migratory flows coming to Europe every year.

....here is a thought....

"It's not like this is any kind of secret. In 2010, thanks to WikiLeaks, we learned that the State Department, under the direction of then-Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton, knew full well where the money for foreign terrorism came from. It came from countries and not from a faith. It came from sovereign states and not from an organized religion. It came from politicians and dictators, not from clerics, at least not directly. It was paid to maintain a political and social order, not to promulgate a religious revival or to launch a religious war. Religion was the fuel, the ammonium nitrate and the diesel fuel. Authoritarian oligarchy built the bomb. As long as people are dying in Paris, nobody important is dying in Doha or Riyadh.

...

Is this even in doubt?

These are the kind of things I've constantly said on this thread for the last few years. It seems that when it suits you, you may agree with me but don't say it fair and square. So I guess it would be good if you show me more respect than you recently did...

 

[Echoes]

Article in French

Bataclan has been sold to the Lagardère Group last September by the brothers Touitou (renamed Laloux). One of the brothers emigrated to Israel.

Let's remember that the Hypercacher department store where the "movie" from last January ended had been sold by its owner, the day before the hostage taking (which means the day after the CH attack).

I don't believe in coincidences.

 

[blutto]

Re: Re:

...here's something verrry interesting to ponder over - one of the paris terrorists appears to have been registered as a syrian refugee.

that's right. the utmost subconscious fear of many europeans and the scare symbol of the ultra-right anti-immigrant politicians seems to have pan out...

at first, i came across the news via an rss headliner on debkafile. since i take that site with a lot of salt, i continued looking...of all the current main stream sources only the nbcnews seems to offer the following link confirming the suspicion.

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/paris-terror-attacks/passport-found-attack-site-came-through-greece-official-says-n463526

....the following from The Guardian....

""The Guardian"- The holder of a Syrian passport found near the body of one of the gunmen who died in Friday night’s attacks in Paris passed though Greece in October, a Greek minister told Reuters.

....and...

"While this heavily implies that one of the gunman came into Europe along with refugees, Syrian passports are known to be valuable currency amongst those trying to enter Europe, and it is not yet confirmed whether the holder of the passport is indeed the perpetrator."

...but the headline reads....

"Syrian Passport Found on Paris Attacker's Body Belonged To Refugee"

....and that is what seems to be reverberating thruout the echo chamber....

Cheers

Reminds me of 9/11, when the media reported as fact that the passport of one of the hi-jackers was found amongst the wreckage.

Do you think none of the 'refugees' are ISIS members who see a way to get into Europe? Even at .1 of 1%, it is 500 or so people. How many carried out the attack in Paris? How many in Bagdad or Lebanon?

They can come into Europe, disappear only to re-emerge with explosives around their waist and an AK-47 in their hands. Anybody who thinks none of these 'refugees' are ISIS is kidding themselves. Anybody who thinks there aren't already ISIS sleeper cells in Europe right now, even before the refugee crisis, is kidding themselves.

Until it is recognized for what it is, essentially an invasion, this will happen again..

...yeah its funny but I have had similar thoughts about the mass immigrations that washed ashore during the latter parts of the 19th century....was it really prudent to let in all of those Italians when there was hidden among that mob small groups and sleeper cells of nefarious villains who would become the Mafia, the backbone of organized crime in America today...if only people had been smart in those days and not let in all those people in, Merica would not be plagued with organized crime....and lets not even talk about those evil Chinese Triad folks and the Columbians and their coke and the drug crime associated with Mexicans....thousands die as a direct result of those people being in Merika and that is an undisputable fact....

....and speaking of the danger that just sneaks by the radar because it is such a small percentage there is the problem of transportation by car....just think of the thousands of people that are killed every year by drivers in cars and how by simply eliminating cars we could effectively eliminate that carnage ( which is several magnitudes larger than terrorism )....and save all that money by not having to build and maintain roads and bridges....and cease burning all that gas so that in one foul swoop we would save ourselves from global warming...

...and then there is the furniture!...did you know that furniture falling on people kills more people in Merika than terrorists....and then there is the danger of slipping and falling in the shower which takes a surprisingly high toll...so whatcha think a DHS Department of Showers and Furniture to deal with those real dangers or in the interests of complete safety just eliminate showers and furniture completely (....would certainly help eliminate government red tape would it not ?...)....

...and life would be just so perfectly perfect....

Cheers

 

[bp92]

Re: Re:

why france ?

in the anti- isil military 'front' the french have played a truly secondary if not a minor role...

Because France is a western country that allows gay and jewish people to live normal lives, allows little girls to get an education, allows its women to wear what they want, allows free speech, allows people born into "muslim families" to convert to other religions etc.

You are trying to rationalize the behavior of fascistic sociopaths who want to destroy all life and believe they will get rewarded for causing suffering, as some sort of militaristic response to foreign policy.

Why do they behead gay people, stone women for adultery and throw acid at 5 year old girls? Is that a response to western foreign policy too?

There are military operations people that don't like the US take. Going into a hall and massacring everyone within sight then calling it a miracle, is not that.

. Terrorism is really just the means for the small and powerless to strike back/gain a measure of revenge against the big and powerful, has little to do with religion

Perhaps you can explain why they throw acid at little girls or why they targeted Jews in the January attack, or why there is a fatwah on Salman Rushdie.

Is that also because they feel "small and powerless"?

Was Pablo Escobar also oppressed and powerless when he left bombs in the streets. He used the same tactics. Maybe that was a noble fight against the big bad west too?

What about the kkk? Which had pretty much indistinguishable ideology.

I bet you won't you justify their actions in the same way

Terrorism is used by "smaller" armies to deal as much damage as possible to countries/entities with large armies without going into an actual battle, causing (obviously) terror among the citizens.
It's cowardic, and it hurts people that got NOTHING to do with the war. It can't be accepted under any circumstances. War's bad enough as it is, when both parties follow the Rules of War; when one of the sides doesn't give a damn about them it becomes despicable. And stuff like this happens.

I hate what's going on now. blutto makes a VERY good point in what should be done (those AK47s and bombs have to be bought from somebody, with money that has to come from somewhere; cut off either and they should eventually dry out). However, if an oil-rich country is the one providing ISIS/Daesh/whatever then the big countries will do nothing to stop the funding, because going to war and instigating even more hate (which instigates even more terrorist attacks) is apparently best for businesses or something.

 

[blutto]

Re: Re:

why france ?

in the anti- isil military 'front' the french have played a truly secondary if not a minor role...

Because France is a western country that allows gay and jewish people to live normal lives, allows little girls to get an education, allows its women to wear what they want, allows free speech, allows people born into "muslim families" to convert to other religions etc.

You are trying to rationalize the behavior of fascistic sociopaths who want to destroy all life and believe they will get rewarded for causing suffering, as some sort of militaristic response to foreign policy.

Why do they behead gay people, stone women for adultery and throw acid at 5 year old girls? Is that a response to western foreign policy too?

There are military operations people that don't like the US take. Going into a hall and massacring everyone within sight then calling it a miracle, is not that.

. Terrorism is really just the means for the small and powerless to strike back/gain a measure of revenge against the big and powerful, has little to do with religion

Perhaps you can explain why they throw acid at little girls or why they targeted Jews in the January attack, or why there is a fatwah on Salman Rushdie.

Is that also because they feel "small and powerless"?

Was Pablo Escobar also oppressed and powerless when he left bombs in the streets. He used the same tactics. Maybe that was a noble fight against the big bad west too?

What about the kkk? Which had pretty much indistinguishable ideology.

I bet you won't you justify their actions in the same way

Terrorism is used by "smaller" armies to deal as much damage as possible to countries/entities with large armies without going into an actual battle, causing (obviously) terror among the citizens.
It's cowardic, and it hurts people that got NOTHING to do with the war. It can't be accepted under any circumstances. War's bad enough as it is, when both parties follow the Rules of War; when one of the sides doesn't give a damn about them it becomes despicable. And stuff like this happens.

I hate what's going on now. blutto makes a VERY good point in what should be done (those AK47s and bombs have to be bought from somebody, with money that has to come from somewhere; cut off either and they should eventually dry out). However, if an oil-rich country is the one providing ISIS/Daesh/whatever then the big countries will do nothing to stop the funding, because going to war and instigating even more hate (which instigates even more terrorist attacks) is apparently best for businesses or something.

....unfortunately those rules have not been adhered to for a while...think The Blitz, Dresden, Tokyo, Nagasaki, Hiroshima, Fallujah, the road to Basra, drone warfare, use of DU weapons etc etc etc....and its not like its just those guys its everybody ( and btw we have "won" that race to the bottom by bagging "the score by body count race" by a huge margin....so why on earth are we horrified when the other guys don't play by the rules ( for brownie points in a propaganda campaign !@%? ))....maybe the real horror is that we are horrified...

...and yes follow the money....for whose business is this best for ?....would Syria be an issue if Qatar didn't have a huge amount of gas they wanted to transport to Europe thru Syria that would undermine Russia influence in Europe ?....would Afghanistan have been invaded if it had acceded to the pipeline that would bring gas from the Caspian basin to among other things a gas fired Enron power plant in India ?.....

...and as long as I'm piling on....the following is most certainly worth a boo...

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article43418.htm

"32) Oh, also: why does the media coverage make these massacres West-versus-Islam when many of the victims in Paris would most likely include many Muslims and when ISIS in the Middle East kill more Muslims than non-Muslims, despite the fact that members of US Congress only see Jews and Christians as victims but not Muslims."

...though to be correct the US Congress doesn't really give a fig about the Christians in Iraq and Syria who btw have all but been wiped out ( and frankly I don't think they give a fig about anything save the next envelope of unmarked bills....starting with that ace number one grifter Hitlery.. )....whereas from most reports the Jews native to Iran seem to be doing alright....funny that...

Cheers

 

[python]

the latest on the syrian passport connection of the terrorists is that there were probably 2 and both, according to an unnamed police sources, were fakes. likely made in turkey. i will skip the links b/c the stories evolve too fast...those interested in more details can google.

also, listening live this morning to sarcozy, i thought he made an interesting remark that the french foreign policy should change. in which specific direction(s) he did not quite elaborate, but those who followed his visit to moscow just several days back, may reasonably imply he means cooperating with vlad much closer in syria. also, according to the latest stratfor analysis, france is likely to activate some sort of a ground operation against isis.

will have to see, but i am skeptical that the french will go much further than talking, given how complicated and crowded the syrian theatre already is. but i could be underestimating the popular french reaction to the horrible carnage they've been exposed to.

 

[roundabout]

Re: Re:

...and as long as I'm piling on....the following is most certainly worth a boo...

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article43418.htm

"32) Oh, also: why does the media coverage make these massacres West-versus-Islam when many of the victims in Paris would most likely include many Muslims and when ISIS in the Middle East kill more Muslims than non-Muslims, despite the fact that members of US Congress only see Jews and Christians as victims but not Muslims."

Cheers

No, it isn't most certainly worth anything.

When the supposed perpetrators of these acts say themselves that they are aimed against the West it's downright moronic to try to make it about the media coverage.

Seriously, read the ISIS statement, even if it's not on the list of things that you routinely google.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Re: Re:

...here's something verrry interesting to ponder over - one of the paris terrorists appears to have been registered as a syrian refugee.

that's right. the utmost subconscious fear of many europeans and the scare symbol of the ultra-right anti-immigrant politicians seems to have pan out...

at first, i came across the news via an rss headliner on debkafile. since i take that site with a lot of salt, i continued looking...of all the current main stream sources only the nbcnews seems to offer the following link confirming the suspicion.

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/paris-terror-attacks/passport-found-attack-site-came-through-greece-official-says-n463526

....the following from The Guardian....

""The Guardian"- The holder of a Syrian passport found near the body of one of the gunmen who died in Friday night’s attacks in Paris passed though Greece in October, a Greek minister told Reuters.

....and...

"While this heavily implies that one of the gunman came into Europe along with refugees, Syrian passports are known to be valuable currency amongst those trying to enter Europe, and it is not yet confirmed whether the holder of the passport is indeed the perpetrator."

...but the headline reads....

"Syrian Passport Found on Paris Attacker's Body Belonged To Refugee"

....and that is what seems to be reverberating thruout the echo chamber....

Cheers

Reminds me of 9/11, when the media reported as fact that the passport of one of the hi-jackers was found amongst the wreckage.

I knew you guys were coming with this. I said so in this tread not very long after the attacks.

It is more like a disease on how - now matter what the F happens,,,,, it is a conspiracy by the USA / West to blame the poor innocent and peaceful radicals of Islam ----da muzelims.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Re: Re:

...and yes follow the money....for whose business is this best for ?....would Syria be an issue if Qatar didn't have a huge amount of gas they wanted to transport to Europe thru Syria that would undermine Russia influence in Europe ?....would Afghanistan have been invaded if it had acceded to the pipeline that would gas from the Caspian basin to among other things a gas fired Enron power plant in India ?.....

Trouble with that is?

WHERE is the GD construction on the pipeline? What were we waiting on? It has been 14 years now.

If that was the reason then why not just build the flipping thing? It would make the pain in my backside much better.

 

[blutto]

Re: Re:

...and yes follow the money....for whose business is this best for ?....would Syria be an issue if Qatar didn't have a huge amount of gas they wanted to transport to Europe thru Syria that would undermine Russia influence in Europe ?....would Afghanistan have been invaded if it had acceded to the pipeline that would gas from the Caspian basin to among other things a gas fired Enron power plant in India ?.....

Trouble with that is?

WHERE is the GD construction on the pipeline? What were we waiting on? It has been 14 years now.

If that was the reason then why not just build the flipping thing? I would make the pain in my backside much better.

....well....and this just a guess ....because the country is a forking mess and hardly secure and pipelines, especially ones carrying gas blow up real good eh...but that is just another guess because I've hardly blown up anything lately....

Cheers

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Re: Re:

...and yes follow the money....for whose business is this best for ?....would Syria be an issue if Qatar didn't have a huge amount of gas they wanted to transport to Europe thru Syria that would undermine Russia influence in Europe ?....would Afghanistan have been invaded if it had acceded to the pipeline that would gas from the Caspian basin to among other things a gas fired Enron power plant in India ?.....

Trouble with that is?

WHERE is the GD construction on the pipeline? What were we waiting on? It has been 14 years now.

If that was the reason then why not just build the flipping thing? I would make the pain in my backside much better.

....well....and this just a guess ....because the country is a forking mess and hardly secure and pipelines, especially ones carrying gas blow up real good eh...but that is just another guess because I've hardly blown up anything lately....

Cheers

Yeah true but it was a mess before that right? I mean they could have done had the thing constructed without gasification by now. LMAO sorry man that just don't hold any water. Maybe you need some more of that "flex seal" to stop the leaks.

 

[bp92]

Re: Re:

Terrorism is used by "smaller" armies to deal as much damage as possible to countries/entities with large armies without going into an actual battle, causing (obviously) terror among the citizens.
It's cowardic, and it hurts people that got NOTHING to do with the war. It can't be accepted under any circumstances. War's bad enough as it is, when both parties follow the Rules of War; when one of the sides doesn't give a damn about them it becomes despicable. And stuff like this happens.

I hate what's going on now. blutto makes a VERY good point in what should be done (those AK47s and bombs have to be bought from somebody, with money that has to come from somewhere; cut off either and they should eventually dry out). However, if an oil-rich country is the one providing ISIS/Daesh/whatever then the big countries will do nothing to stop the funding, because going to war and instigating even more hate (which instigates even more terrorist attacks) is apparently best for businesses or something.

....unfortunately those rules have not been adhered to for a while...think The Blitz, Dresden, Tokyo, Nagasaki, Hiroshima, Fallujah, the road to Basra, drone warfare, use of DU weapons etc etc etc....and its not like its just those guys its everybody ( and btw we have "won" that race to the bottom by bagging "the score by body count race" by a huge margin....so why on earth are we horrified when the other guys don't play by the rules ( for brownie points in a propaganda campaign !@%? ))....maybe the real horror is that we are horrified...

...and yes follow the money....for whose business is this best for ?....would Syria be an issue if Qatar didn't have a huge amount of gas they wanted to transport to Europe thru Syria that would undermine Russia influence in Europe ?....would Afghanistan have been invaded if it had acceded to the pipeline that would gas from the Caspian basin to among other things a gas fired Enron power plant in India ?.....

The rules of war thing is a good point. Maybe I should've said that war is already horrible enough on its own when they're fighting to take "legitimate" military targets, then it becomes worse when one of the sides starts targeting civilians intentionally.
...then again, a lot of civilians are dying in Syria and Iraq right now, and there isn't much fanfare because "it's war anyway". People die during a war, and it's considered "normal". When stuff like 9/11 or Paris happens, it's stuff that's "not supposed to happen", that no one involved is expecting. So it's heavily publicized.
It shouldn't happen. I don't like wars. Don't meddle in other's businesses if they aren't meddling in yours.

Focusing only on ISIS/Daesh, forgetting about the Syria pipeline and the strategical wars thing (those discussions tend to get away from me, since I don't know much about that), if they really wanted to stop ISIS/Daesh from executing terrorist attacks, or imposing their (ridiculous for me and most people) laws upon the people of Syria and Iraq (among others), preventing them from acquiring further military power would be a critical thing to do, and cutting off funding might work for that, since I don't think they actually can produce their own weapons. But it's not likely to happen, if what you said is true (both the "oil-producing countries are funding ISIS/Daesh" and the "strategical war" things).

 

[blutto]

Re: Re:

...and yes follow the money....for whose business is this best for ?....would Syria be an issue if Qatar didn't have a huge amount of gas they wanted to transport to Europe thru Syria that would undermine Russia influence in Europe ?....would Afghanistan have been invaded if it had acceded to the pipeline that would gas from the Caspian basin to among other things a gas fired Enron power plant in India ?.....

Trouble with that is?

WHERE is the GD construction on the pipeline? What were we waiting on? It has been 14 years now.

If that was the reason then why not just build the flipping thing? I would make the pain in my backside much better.

....well....and this just a guess ....because the country is a forking mess and hardly secure and pipelines, especially ones carrying gas blow up real good eh...but that is just another guess because I've hardly blown up anything lately....

Cheers

Yeah true but it was a mess before that right? I mean they could have done had the thing constructed without gasification by now. LMAO sorry man that just don't hold any water. Maybe you need some more of that "flex seal" to stop the leaks.

....well...the Taliban were on board and the Northern Alliance, the guys they were warring against are drug smuggling scumbags who could be bought off because they were , uhhh, drug smuggling scumbags, so the mess was kinda manageable ( if there is such a thing )...the ironicalistic thing being that when the forces of apple pie and democracy invaded Afghanistan they allied themselves with the Northern Alliance, you know, the drug smuggling scumbags, and as a result have, errr, helped Afghanistan became the world centre for heroin production and coincidently helped the Cocaine Importation Agency diversify its product offering...

...as for that "flex seal" thingee, lemme tell you about a thing or two about that sh!te, tried it, but it can't handle the freeze/thaw cycle or the seasonal expansion/contraction that happens to metal roofs here in Soviet Canuckistan because the summers hit 100 and the winters hit -40 and on top of that it was a *** to clean up....probably ok for pussy climates like youse live in but up here in the wilds we use elastomeric thermoplastic ( usually polyurethane based )....so ship shape and high and dry here.... and what was left of the seal flex has long been recycled...but thanks for the advice..

Cheers

 

[VeloCity]

Re: Re:

That's a weak and desperate attempt to run away from a discussion you are scared of.

You said

Terrorism is really just the means for the small and powerless to strike back/gain a measure of revenge against the big and powerful, has little to do with religion

Which I'd a bunch of terrorist apologist nonesense as any brief examination into the history of terror and violence or into the minds of these unstable sociopaths, will show.

er, how exactly is pointing out the historical context being "justifying" or "apologist"? That's absurd. I don't actually recall justifying or rationalizing anything at all, what I do see is you reading into things what you apparently want to read into them. So even though I've already said it I guess I have to repeat it, so let me make it as clear as possible this time: imo all religious people are psychopaths to varying degrees and the world would be a much, much better place without any religion, be it Christianity, Hinduism, Judaism, and - get ready for it - Islam too. Want to get into the various atrocities that all religions are getting up to the world over right now, at this moment? If anyone's being an apologist here it's you, by singling one out and ignoring the atrocities committed by the others. Hindus throw acid in little girls faces quite regularly, dude, and Christians and Jews engage in terrorism quite routinely.

Yes, dude, extremist groups like ISIS resort to terrorism because that's the only means they have for striking a country on its own soil, the mentality and primary motivation being revenge - you kill a bunch of innocent civilians in our countries, we're going to kill a bunch of innocent civilians in your countries, cept unlike you we don't have bombers and tanks and drones and battleships and jets and armies so we're going to hijack some planes with boxcutters and have 8 guys shoot up bars and restaurants instead. (And no, even your Pablo Escobar never came anywhere close to matching the firepower of the government of Colombia, that's why he had to resort to bribery and terrorism, and yes, he was, in fact, relative to his enemy, small and far, far less powerful, as the ending to that story attests.)

How exactly do you intend to get into the minds of these unstable sociopaths by ignoring history and historical context, dude? Were the gunmen yelling things about Iraq and Syria just to make casual conversation? And if it was just about hitting any old open and free country, why not just do it in Brussels? Belgium is an open and free country too, so what would it matter, if that was the only criteria? They seemed to be based there anyway, so why go to all the trouble and risks of border crossings etc when they could've just shot up Brussels instead? Be a hell of a lot easier. In this instance France was chosen (and Belgium or Croatia or Finland were not) by ISIS for specific reasons, one of which is their historical connection with Syria. Ignoring that is as dumb as claiming that pointing out that there's a larger historical context is being "apologist".

 

[red_flanders]

Interesting points about Brussels vs Paris. I would have assumed (how do I know what the psychos are thinking) it would have to do with Paris being so much more a part of the global consciousness and western history than Brussels, on par with London.

Driving around the muslim neighborhoods in Brussels, it is not hard to believe this is a center for this kind of thing. There is a very, very anti-western vibe in those quarters. Native Belgians tend to stay away from those areas. It's like another world in those neighborhoods.

I have little trouble understanding the antipathy many europeans have for these neighborhoods. There seems to be, rather than an effort to assimilate, an active and powerful effort to exclude themselves and remain a separate cultural area. Not sure what the positives are. Brussels has changed and it doesn't feel like for the better to me.

 

[the delgados]

@Glenn Wilson:
My previous post was incomplete and I totally understand how you or anyone else would interpret it the way you did.
Just to clarify, I most certainly do not think this is a conspiracy, and I don't wish to be associated with anyone who thinks so.
I'm simply curious to know how a passport could remain intact on a person who blows himself up.

 

[Amsterhammer]

Re:

@Glenn Wilson:
My previous post was incomplete and I totally understand how you or anyone else would interpret it the way you did.
Just to clarify, I most certainly do not think this is a conspiracy, and I don't wish to be associated with anyone who thinks so.
I'm simply curious to know how a passport could remain intact on a person who blows himself up.

I've been involved in a discussion on exactly this point elsewhere. The informed input from Iraq vets, including a wonderful Canuck who lost both legs in a suicide attack, is that it's perfectly possible. There are an infinite number of variables, i.e. one guy can get hit by multiple bullets/shrapnel/explosive blast and live, while another can be hit by one bullet and die. According to these guys, it's perfectly possible for something like a passport to survive a blast at close quarters.

 

[VeloCity]

This.

http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2015/11/isis-paris-attacks-rubio-republicans/416085/?utm_source=SFFB

"Contra Rubio, the struggle against the Islamic State is absolutely “geopolitical,” and it has everything to do with America’s “military assets in the Middle East.” Women drive in Costa Rica too, but the Islamic State is unlikely to attack it, because Costa Rica is not contesting ISIS’s control of the Middle East. The United States and France are challenging that control, and as long as they are, the Islamic State will try to attack them. America’s domestic freedoms, precious as they are, don’t have much to do with it."

 

[red_flanders]

Regarding the discussion of whether or not ISIS is fueled by religion, I think this is an important read. For anyone interested (who isn't?) in ISIS and what's driving them.

What ISIS Really Wants
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/03/what-isis-really-wants/384980/

Virtually every major decision and law promulgated by the Islamic State adheres to what it calls, in its press and pronouncements, and on its billboards, license plates, stationery, and coins, “the Prophetic methodology,” which means following the prophecy and example of Muhammad, in punctilious detail. Muslims can reject the Islamic State; nearly all do. But pretending that it isn’t actually a religious, millenarian group, with theology that must be understood to be combatted, has already led the United States to underestimate it and back foolish schemes to counter it. We’ll need to get acquainted with the Islamic State’s intellectual genealogy if we are to react in a way that will not strengthen it, but instead help it self-immolate in its own excessive zeal.

According to Haykel, the ranks of the Islamic State are deeply infused with religious vigor. Koranic quotations are ubiquitous. “Even the foot soldiers spout this stuff constantly,” Haykel said. “They mug for their cameras and repeat their basic doctrines in formulaic fashion, and they do it all the time.” He regards the claim that the Islamic State has distorted the texts of Islam as preposterous, sustainable only through willful ignorance. “People want to absolve Islam,” he said. “It’s this ‘Islam is a religion of peace’ mantra. As if there is such a thing as ‘Islam’! It’s what Muslims do, and how they interpret their texts.” Those texts are shared by all Sunni Muslims, not just the Islamic State. “And these guys have just as much legitimacy as anyone else.”

 

[blutto]

Re: Re:

...and as long as I'm piling on....the following is most certainly worth a boo...

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article43418.htm

"32) Oh, also: why does the media coverage make these massacres West-versus-Islam when many of the victims in Paris would most likely include many Muslims and when ISIS in the Middle East kill more Muslims than non-Muslims, despite the fact that members of US Congress only see Jews and Christians as victims but not Muslims."

Cheers

No, it isn't most certainly worth anything.

When the supposed perpetrators of these acts say themselves that they are aimed against the West it's downright moronic to try to make it about the media coverage.

Seriously, read the ISIS statement, even if it's not on the list of things that you routinely google.

...so the story so far....by your words we have supposed perpetrators so one could reasonably assume that one is not absolutely sure who they are and why they did what they did...yet you can in your next sentence very emphatically tell me to read the ISIS statement about an act where the perps are by your own words supposed ( and they may well be not as commonly assumed because the smoking gun that was to connect this horror directly to Syria, the passports, are fakes sourced in Turkey....so in essence these monsters could be anyone working for some other anyone...and for all we know at this point the ISIS statement is a fake as well..)....

....and moronic to make it about media!@%?....listen Sparky terrorism is little more than a loud ad often with an explosive punchline carried far and wide by the media apparatus....so to not to see it as a media event in a sea of media events is so beyond moronic it lands you in a different galaxy....

Cheers

 

[the delgados]

Re: Re:

@Glenn Wilson:
My previous post was incomplete and I totally understand how you or anyone else would interpret it the way you did.
Just to clarify, I most certainly do not think this is a conspiracy, and I don't wish to be associated with anyone who thinks so.
I'm simply curious to know how a passport could remain intact on a person who blows himself up.

I've been involved in a discussion on exactly this point elsewhere. The informed input from Iraq vets, including a wonderful Canuck who lost both legs in a suicide attack, is that it's perfectly possible. There are an infinite number of variables, i.e. one guy can get hit by multiple bullets/shrapnel/explosive blast and live, while another can be hit by one bullet and die. According to these guys, it's perfectly possible for something like a passport to survive a blast at close quarters.

Thank you for the explanation.
Just to reiterate (I'm still mortified), I don't believe there is a conspiracy behind 9/11 or the Paris attacks. However, I understand why people might go down that road when sloppy reporting leaves more questions than answers.
I'm still trying to figure out how an intact passport belonging to the hi-jacker was found amongst the 9/11 wreckage.

 

[roundabout]

Re: Re:

...and as long as I'm piling on....the following is most certainly worth a boo...

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article43418.htm

"32) Oh, also: why does the media coverage make these massacres West-versus-Islam when many of the victims in Paris would most likely include many Muslims and when ISIS in the Middle East kill more Muslims than non-Muslims, despite the fact that members of US Congress only see Jews and Christians as victims but not Muslims."

Cheers

No, it isn't most certainly worth anything.

When the supposed perpetrators of these acts say themselves that they are aimed against the West it's downright moronic to try to make it about the media coverage.

Seriously, read the ISIS statement, even if it's not on the list of things that you routinely google.

...so the story so far....by your words we have supposed perpetrators so one could reasonably assume that one is not absolutely sure who they are and why they did what they did...yet you can in your next sentence very emphatically tell me to read the ISIS statement about an act where the perps are by your own words supposed ( and they may well be not as commonly assumed because the smoking gun that was to connect this horror directly to Syria, the passports, are fakes sourced in Turkey....so in essence these monsters could be anyone working for some other anyone...and for all we know at this point the ISIS statement is a fake as well..)....

....and moronic to make it about media!@%?....listen Sparky terrorism is little more than a loud ad with an explosive message....so to not to see it as a media event in a sea of media events is so beyond moronic it lands you in a different galaxy....

Cheers

Eh, is this some sort of a Paris attack truther version?

But maybe in the opinion of the sites you frequent an attempted terrorist attack in a FRA-GER football game was also not an act against the West?

 

[gooner]

Very interesting and thought provoking article by Jon Snow explaining the complexity of the situation.

http://blogs.channel4.com/snowblog/paris-attacks-middle-easts-wars-arrive-europe/25934

 

[python]

@delgados

a passport found around a terrorist who knew he/she was going to die accomplishing whatever the wicked goal may mean different things in different terror acts.

a conspiracy imo has to be considered regardless but carefully and forensically. for instance, the main question that needs an answer is: why a terrorist whose purpose isn't only to die but also to protect the helpers, other operatives and the organization at large post the terror act would take his identity docs along at all ?

it's a no brainer, really, any genuine document found at the scene of a crime helps the police. thus, one has to ALWAYS consider a possibility of a document being a bait aimed to distract or confuse. or as i said already being a part of a conspiracy etc.

also, keep in mind, that a hijacker of a plane MUST have an id to board the plane while a martyr aiming to massacre civilians on the streets does not need a passport. in fact, given the highly organized nature of the crimes in paris (all sources noted that), it is quite suspicious WHY the passports were taken along at all...

you see, it's a complex police matter to untangle. and a simplistic conspiracy can fit just as well as none...

 

[blutto]

Re:

@delgados

a passport found around a terrorist who knew he/she was going to die accomplishing whatever the wicked goal may mean different things in different terror acts.

a conspiracy imo has to be considered regardless but carefully and forensically. for instance, the main question that needs an answer is: why a terrorist whose purpose isn't only to die but also to protect the helpers, other operatives and the organization at large post the terror act would take his identity docs along at all ?

it's a no brainer, really, any genuine document found at the scene of a crime helps the police. thus, one has to ALWAYS consider a possibility of a document being a bait aimed to distract or confuse. or as i said already being a part of a conspiracy etc.

also, keep in mind, that a hijacker of a plane MUST have an id to board the plane while a martyr aiming to massacre civilians on the streets does not need a passport. in fact, given the highly organized nature of the crimes in paris (all sources noted that), it is quite suspicious WHY the passports were taken along at all...

you see, it's a complex police matter to untangle. and a simplistic conspiracy can fit just as well as none...

...yup that is a biggie and your reading of this corresponds to mine....but if it was indeed a Turkish fake how does that read because suddenly the situation becomes even more complisticated?....was it a good fake ?...an obvious fake ?....who what why whom....

Cheers