World Politics

[del1962]

Anti-Americanism blinds many people, including here.

Whatever the US or the EU did, the use of military force crosses the line twice, especially when it's justified using the most bogus and ridiculous reasons (they've spent the whole week trying to destabilize Ukraine with blatantly false accusations), as anyone who's been following this crisis through several sources from all sides will tell you. Putin knows the West is extremely unlikely to respond in the same manner: even if they agreed to send troops, the chances that they'd try to kick out the Russian soldiers from Crimea are infinitesimal, so worst case scenario he still gets to keep Crimea thanks to his policy of fait accompli.

It's simply an outrageous breach of international law and it calls for an appropriate response, which is not lame statements about how concerned everybody is.

edit: of course, whether the West gets involved should depend on whether or not Ukraine asks for help.

Totally agree this conflict is primarily about Putin and Russia underming the Ukraine which they did when they poisoned Yushchenko, none is saying that American or even EU policy is always great, but in this situation it is Putin and his Henchmen that are doing the damage,

and yes many are blinded by kneejerk anti-americanism, we have that problem even in the UK often accopanied with hysteria

 

[jens_attacks]

 

[python]

... You have greedy oligarchs who think it is better to ally with Europe vs. greedy oligarchs who think it is better to ally with Russia. It is just that only one set of oligarchs has friends who are willing to put troops on the ground, and that set certainly isn't the pro-western ones.

i am not sure i understood you right, but virtually all ukrainian oligarchs who brought yanukovich to power, turned supportive of his mortal rivals, the current putsch leaders. it is a known fact. their change of allegiances with all the associated money flows, is the REAL reason for his downfall. the interplay of various motives is complex

however, what is clear, if the west and the us are not totally responsible for yanukovich's downfall, they, for sure, put the last nail in his coffin. when they threatened yanuk economic sanctions after attacking demonstartors, the oligarchs realized it was a message against their assets in the west...

the rest was a pure technicality.

 

[shalgo]

Whatever the US or the EU did, the use of military force crosses the line twice, especially when it's justified using the most bogus and ridiculous reasons (they've spent the whole week trying to destabilize Ukraine with blatantly false accusations), as anyone who's been following this crisis through several sources from all sides will tell you.

Yes, this is exactly the point. Putin and his friends and apologists always use arguments premised on a false equivalency to justify the most egregious actions.

 

[del1962]

i am not sure i understood you right, but virtually all ukrainian oligarchs who brought yanukovich to power, turned supportive of his mortal rivals, the current putsch leaders. it is a known fact. their change of allegiances with all the associated money flows, is the REAL reason for his downfall. the interplay of various motives is complex

however, what is clear, if the west and the us are not totally responsible for yanukovich's downfall, they, for sure, put the last nail in his coffin. when they threatened yanuk economic sanctions after attacking demonstartors, the oligarchs realized it was a message against their assets in the west...

the rest was a pure technicality.

So you think that when the regime starting shooting and killing the demonstrators the threat off sancions was wrong?

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

I don't understand most of your post at all but to the bolded: Whom is speaking for the Ukraine now? A group of revolutionaries sponsored by western interests that have pulled off a coup against a democratically elected government (bad as it may have been)?

That´s how they always work since at least the days of Lumumba and Allende. They just keep kicking elected presidents out of power if they don´t follow the ways of US big business.
And after the coups they call the victims the aggressors. It´s soo disgusting.

No "del1962" and "hrotha" anti-americanism isn´t blinding us. Actually it woke us up. To see who the real enemy is. Again; its the ever greedy US imperialists who only serve one god: money. For "him" they do everything, including pilling up tons of corpses.

 

[jens_attacks]

here we go....


Ukraine's army on combat alert, says interim president
http://www.france24.com/en/node/549...aux_sociaux&ns_fee=0&ns_linkname=node_5492056

seems like we gonna have a war this night.

 

[hrotha]

I don't understand most of your post at all but to the bolded: Who is speaking for the Ukraine now? A group of revolutionaries sponsored by western interests that have pulled off a coup against a democratically elected government (bad as it may have been)?

The current government is speaking for Ukraine. Yanukovych was ditched even by his own party, and he lost any legitimacy when he used lethal force on the protesters (and by the way, dozens of people had been disappearing even before the final outbreak of February 18th).

Let me ask you something: do you believe legitimate revolutions exist or may exist? If so, do you have any examples of historical revolutions you consider legitimate?

 

[hrotha]

No "del1962" and "hrotha" anti-americanism isn´t blinding us. Actually it woke us up. To see who the real enemy is. Again; its the ever greedy US imperialists who only serve one god: money. For "him" they do everything, including tons of corpses.

Yah, no, call me when you grow out of that phase. Me, I prefer to criticize the many, many US policies that actually deserve criticism, because all you're doing otherwise is undermine your own opposition to the US.

 

[del1962]

That´s how they always work since at least the days of Lumumba and Allende. They just keep kicking elected presidents out of power if they don´t follow the ways of US big business.
And after the coups they call the victims the aggressors. It´s soo disgusting.

No "del1962" and "hrotha" anti-americanism isn´t blinding us. Actually it woke us up. To see who the real enemy is. Again; its the ever greedy US imperialists who only serve one god: money. For "him" they do everything, including pilling up tons of corpses.

So what do you think of the ousted president shooting and killing the protestors, I guess its ok as long as he does it in the name of anti-americanism?

 

[RetroActive]

Totally agree this conflict is primarily about Putin and Russia underming the Ukraine which they did when they poisoned Yushchenko, none is saying that American or even EU policy is always great, but in this situation it is Putin and his Henchmen that are doing the damage,

and yes many are blinded by kneejerk anti-americanism, we have that problem even in the UK often accopanied with hysteria

Is it anti-americanism or anti-imperialism? I'd love to love the USA but where did it go? The Anglo-American empire/ NATO isn't doing itself any favours and I live in a NATO member country so I'm not exactly pro Russian by any stretch. Hypocrisy is still hypocrisy.

 

[roundabout]

The current government is speaking for Ukraine. Yanukovych was ditched even by his own party, and he lost any legitimacy when he used lethal force on the protesters (and by the way, dozens of people had been disappearing even before the final outbreak of February 18th).

Let me ask you something: do you believe legitimate revolutions exist or may exist? If so, do you have any examples of historical revolutions you consider legitimate?

Backed by Russia Crimea will "legitimately" secede.

The wildcard is the Ukranian Navy stationed there.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

So what do you think of the ousted president shooting and killing the protestors, I guess its ok as long as he does it in the name of anti-americanism?

I have read in our mainstream press. Yes even those sometimes tell the whole story;
The right wing "demonstrants" started the shooting. Just use logic: If the president wanted to get rid of the demonstrants he would have used the army and not some sorry coward snipers.
As I said: The propaganda war is on full scale. May even more so in US media.

 

[python]

So you think that when the regime starting shooting and killing the demonstrators the threat off sancions was wrong?

i only addressed your inaccurate, imo, statements about the ukrainian oligarchs. that you chose to twist it and divert into discussing what i had not addressed ('who stared shooting' ) tells me, i shall spare my time from engaging you.

 

[hrotha]

Is it anti-americanism or anti-imperialism? I'd love to love the USA but where did it go? The Anglo-American empire/ NATO isn't doing itself any favours and I live in a NATO member country so I'm not exactly pro Russian by any stretch. Hypocrisy is still hypocrisy.

It is anti-imperialism when it opposes, say, the invasion of Iraq.
When it blames the US for Russia invading another country, instead of blaming, dunno, Russia, then it's rancid anti-Americanism.

 

[RetroActive]

The current government is speaking for Ukraine. Yanukovych was ditched even by his own party, and he lost any legitimacy when he used lethal force on the protesters (and by the way, dozens of people had been disappearing even before the final outbreak of February 18th).

Let me ask you something: do you believe legitimate revolutions exist or may exist? If so, do you have any examples of historical revolutions you consider legitimate?

Well, this revolution apparently cost 5 billion. It's ironic and hypocritical that you're asking me to not see the hubris involved in this circumstance. Let me ask you a question: are you pro fascist?

 

[hrotha]

Well, this revolution apparently cost 5 billion. It's ironic and hypocritical that you're asking me to not see the hubris involved in this circumstance. Let me ask you a question: are you pro fascist?

I've always voted communist or socialist (not social-democracy). Also, fυck you for the implication.

Now could you please answer my questions?

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Is it anti-americanism or anti-imperialism? I'd love to love the USA but where did it go? The Anglo-American empire/ NATO isn't doing itself any favours and I live in a NATO member country so I'm not exactly pro Russian by any stretch. Hypocrisy is still hypocrisy.

Yeah, that´s the correct phrase. Thanks for that.
I too live in a anglo-american captured country. It´s getting worse inch by inch, year by year. We don´t hate the US citizens, but those greedy psychos in power who brainwash them. And the puppet Obama is the front page face who does what the Friedman and Wall Street boys tell him to do.

 

[jens_attacks]

russia is russia as always but i feel this new government ukrainian guys are out of their minds. they are playing with fire. best way for ukraine now is just let east of the country do whatever they want. they can't control it

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

It is anti-imperialism when it opposes, say, the invasion of Iraq.
When it blames the US for Russia invading another country, instead of blaming, dunno, Russia, then it's rancid anti-Americanism.

The paid for "revolutionists"* started the fire right on the doorstep of Russia. USA would act defensively too if Russia would invade Canada. I mean even as an anti anti-americanist that should be clear by now.

* and thus the US imperialists

 

[hrotha]

The paid for "revolutionists"* started the fire right on the doorstep of Russia. USA would act defensively too if Russia would invade Canada. I mean even as an anti anti-americanist that should be clear by now.

* and thus the US imperialists

Do you have any evidence that the protesters were US agents?

Also, I extend these questions to you too:

Let me ask you something: do you believe legitimate revolutions exist or may exist? If so, do you have any examples of historical revolutions you consider legitimate?

 

[del1962]

i only addressed your inaccurate, imo, statements about the ukrainian oligarchs. that you chose to twist it and divert into discussing what i had not addressed ('who stared shooting' ) tells me, i shall spare my time from engaging you.

No you said that the threat of economic sanciotns pushed them to get rid of their president, now do you think it was wrong in the light of the president shooting and killing the protesters that sanctions where threatened?

 

[python]

The current government is speaking for Ukraine. Yanukovych was ditched even by his own party,

do you mind if i call you clueless ? yes you are, to say that nonesense.

the current putsch government, as was noted above is based on the known facts of the ukranian demographics and geography. it represents about 45% of ukrainians living in the west and central ukraine. all, literally 100% of the current govt ministers derive from and represent the specific areas. there is not one single minister in the uki govt from the 'russian' south east of ukraine, not a single one. this is an ever lasting tug of war btwn the ukrainian-polish west and the russian east. i repeat, the first law, the current rulers forced, was banning the native language of the 55% of the ukrainian populations. they became defacto felons just because they speak a different language. the second law was to outlaw the countries constitutional court judges. guess why

you are an intelligent chap, but sometimes i wonder if you wish to use the brains to educate yourself.

 

[del1962]

The paid for "revolutionists"* started the fire right on the doorstep of Russia. USA would act defensively too if Russia would invade Canada. I mean even as an anti anti-americanist that should be clear by now.

* and thus the US imperialists

It is impossible to have a rational debate with someone who believes this cra.p

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Do you have any evidence that the protesters were US agents?

Also, I extend these questions to you too:

They were paid for. The same way as in the 1st try (the "orange" one).
http://www.nachdenkseiten.de/?p=20855

That´s how the US imperialists work. They "invest" a certain amount of dollars to gain major dividends later. As I said; disgusting.