World Politics

[python]

No you said that the threat of economic sanciotns pushed them to get rid of their president, now do you think it was wrong in the light of the president shooting and killing the protesters that sanctions where threatened?

the threat of sanctions had nothing to do with what was going on on the streets. you can like this answer or dislike it. i said plenty already - that the real cause of the problem is the the ukraine being 2 separate ethnic, religious and cultural entities being exploited by the west and russia.

i dont feel repeating my earlier stated opinions is productive.

 

[jens_attacks]

hrotha, of course russia is worse than usa mob or eu. anyone with two brain cells knows that
but python's points are correct, this government i don't find it mentally sane

Yarosh, who is a self-proclaimed deputy secretary of the National Security and Defense Council of Ukraine

The message, signed “leader of Right Sector Dmitry Yarosh” then calls on Umarov “to activate his fight” and “take a unique chance to win” over Russia.
The radical leader has been consistently anti-Russian in his statements, calling for the destruction and division of the “Moscow Empire” and openly supporting Chechen militants and Georgian aggression. Yarosh believes Russia is Ukraine’s “eternal foe” and has said that war between the two countries is “inevitable.”



many who lead now ukraine share his extreme nationalist views. that is ridiulously dangerous.
maybe some ukrainian posters here can share their ideas.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

It is impossible to have a rational debate with someone who believes this cra.p

Of course it´s more subtile and complex. But if I learned one thing in internet discussions, its using short direct posts that hammer the message home.
I could also write "books" like Merckx, but no one is reading them...

 

[hrotha]

do you mind if i call you clueless ? yes you are, to say that nonesense.

the current putsch government, as was noted above is based on the known facts of the ukranian demographics and geography. it represents about 45% of ukrainians living in the west and central ukraine. all, literally 100% of the current govt ministers derive from and represent the specific areas. there is not one single minister in the uki govt from the 'russian' south east of ukraine, not a single one. this is an ever lasting tug of war btwn the ukrainian-polish west and the russian east. i repeat, the first law, the current rulers forced, was banning the native language of the 55% of the ukrainian populations. they became defacto felons just because they speak a different language. the second law was to outlaw the countries constitutional court judges. guess why

you are an intelligent chap, but sometimes i wonder if you wish to the brains to educate yourself.

First off, drop the insults.

Secondly, acting president Turchynov vetoed the law on co-official languages.

Thirdly, Russian is not the language of 55% of Ukrainians.
http://ratinggroup.com.ua/en/products/politic/data/entry/14004/

Fourthly, the current law on co-official languages had only been in effect since 2012. No one would have been made a "felon" for repealing it, and people would have kept speaking Russian. That said, of course I think the proposed law was wrong, aside from strategically stupid.

Fifthly, regardless of the composition of the provisional government, eastern Ukraine, including Yanukovych's party, had recognized it before Russia started meddling.

Sixthly, there are elections coming.

 

[hrotha]

They were paid for. The same way as in the 1st try (the "orange" one).
http://www.nachdenkseiten.de/?p=20855

That´s how the US imperialists work. They "invest" a certain amount of dollars to gain major dividends later. As I said; disgusting.

My German is not good enough to read through all of that.

You didn't answer my questions, though. Your response is relevant to this argument because revolutions are typically backed by someone.

hrotha, of course russia is worse than usa mob or eu. anyone with two brain cells knows that
but python's points are correct, this government i don't find it mentally sane

I haven't said otherwise.

 

[roundabout]

They were paid for. The same way as in the 1st try (the "orange" one).
http://www.nachdenkseiten.de/?p=20855

That´s how the US imperialists work. They "invest" a certain amount of dollars to gain major dividends later. As I said; disgusting.

There are no dividends to be gained. It's a messed up, linguistically divided, economically weak country, devoid of resources of major value.

They are either naively building up democracy (lol) or want to poke Russia in the eye.

 

[del1962]

the threat of sanctions had nothing to do with what was going on on the streets. you can like this answer or dislike it. i said plenty already - that the real cause of the problem is the the ukraine being 2 separate ethnic, religious and cultural entities being exploited by the west and russia.

i dont feel repeating my earlier stated opinions is productive.

What I agree on is that the Ukraines problems is the 2 seperate identities within its borders, where I disagree is that the west is exploiting this, it is not in the west's interests for the Ukraine to be unstable, what I do see is overt Russian Interference.

I also have some discomfort with the neo-fascist parts of the protest movement but I suspect there are those in Russia who want to exagerate their influence (I hope I am right that they are not influential and Russia and pro Russian elements are exagerating their influence), I guess the ordinary Russian will have memories to what some Ukrainians did when the Germans where in power, and it was not that pleasant which is why these fears are exploited by Russian leaders.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

My German is not good enough to read through all of that.

You didn't answer my questions, though. Your response is relevant to this argument because revolutions are typically backed by someone.

I haven't said otherwise.

Basically it says 5 billion US dollars were invested in this "revolution". Then they put in links with official documents as evidence...

Maybe the one in France was legitimate. But how can I judge? I havn´t read much about it.
I got mainly interested in the USA imperialism since they phucked our country pretty hard (even tough very subtile over decades*) with their co-orperations, shareholder value, do-or-die capitalism, surveillance tactics, gender mainstreaming, nuclear weapon depots, millitary bases, "englishinazing" our language, industrial espionage, gene & junk food, brainwashing attempts, and many other things I havn´t mentioned.
Basically they destroyed our intendity and stole our grounds. It´s always a sad moment when they capture another country to implement their "freedom and democracy".

* May we can call ourselves "lucky" that we didn´t got rolled over lately by tanks like other countries were.

 

[roundabout]

Fifthly, regardless of the composition of the provisional government, eastern Ukraine, including Yanukovych's party, had recognized it before Russia started meddling.

No, they have not.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

There are no dividends to be gained. It's a messed up, linguistically divided, economically weak country, devoid of resources of major value.

They are either naively building up democracy (lol) or want to poke Russia in the eye.

They need more countries to get into depth and dependence of the fiat money dollars. Otherwise the house of cards, that credit based money is, crashes sooner than they would like.

 

[hrotha]

No, they have not.

Sure did.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/24/world/europe/ukraine.html

 

[roundabout]

Sure did.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/24/world/europe/ukraine.html

Where does it say so?

In several cities in eastern Ukraine, including Donetsk, which is Mr. Yanukovych’s hometown, and Kharkiv, pro-Russian demonstrators took to the streets to denounce the developments in Kiev.

From your NYT link.

Or alternatively

http://rt.com/news/thousands-gather-eastern-ukraine-252/

Edit: to be clear, I disagree that the Eastern Ukraine accepted the change of government

 

[hrotha]

Basically it says 5 billion US dollars were invested in this "revolution". Then they put in links with official documents as evidence...

Is this quote what substantiates the 5 billion claim?

“Since the declaration of Ukrainian independence in 1991, the United States supported the Ukrainians in the development of democratic institutions and skills in promoting civil society and a good form of government - all that is necessary to achieve the objectives of Ukraine’s European. We have invested more than 5 billion dollars to help Ukraine to achieve these and other goals. ”

I don't see any of those consignments going to "Euromaidan protesters". Could you please paste here the link to the specific official documents?

 

[python]

No one would have been made a "felon" for repealing it, and people would have kept speaking Russian. That said, of course I think the proposed law was wrong, aside from strategically stupid.

since you clearly show with this statement that you understand the issue, your 1.2.3.4 was a waste of bandwidth. again, we are talking of outlawing the emotional symbols and practical signals about the majority of the ukrainian population. the laws pushed on the 2nd day of the putch ! stupid they were, but they told the law targets this was just a beginning. then, the mob from the western cities was found 1000 km away from their homes storming/occupying the building in the east....and trying to demolish the monuments dear to their culture and memory, and surrounding the places of their orthodox worship . none of these thugs were restrained by the new rulers.

Fifthly, regardless of the composition of the provisional government, eastern Ukraine, including Yanukovych's party, had recognized it

again, do some reading. what happened was that that about 80 of corrupt members of the party of regions ran home or defected as soon as yanukovich fell. check the stories of votes taking place in the parlament patrolled by the machine gunners and the threats to many mp families. note, these were the same mps who held firm majority passing anti-protest laws. many were threatened, plenty of evidence. under no democratic measure, the cowardly, terrorized defectors can be considered representing the will of the people who elected them.

Sixthly, there are elections coming.

if the elections are coming, what was the rush to get rid of the language laws and the constitutional judges ? and why not to leave the all-important decision on the eu association to the elected govt ? no, they annouced it will be done before.

all the signs of the insecure putschists rushing to establish something they know may get voted out.

 

[hrotha]

Where does it say so?



From your NYT link.

Or alternatively

http://rt.com/news/thousands-gather-eastern-ukraine-252/

Edit: to be clear, I disagree that the Eastern Ukraine accepted the change of government

It says the Party of Regions labelled Yanukovych as a traitor and blamed him and his entourage for everything.

As for the other claim: your link is from February 22nd, when Yanukovych had just been toppled and the situation was a lot more confusing. Nevertheless, I haven't been able to find anything supporting my claim, so I'm willing to accept I was misremembering things.

It should be noted however that there were also pro-government rallies in those cities.

Python, drop the patronizing tone. The Party of Regions, not just the parliament members, denounced Yanukovych.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Is this quote what substantiates the 5 billion claim?

I don't see any of those consignments going to "Euromaidan protesters". Could you please paste here the link to the specific official documents?

The linked docus don´t add up to the proclaimed 5 billion, but the bigger picture is clear: "Orange II". That´s what it basically is.
And I know you know it better how easy it is to manipulate people. Wink with greenbacks & Euros, and everybody jumps the bandwagon of supporting the West. After that, the wake up call follows (see Naomi Kleins books); "reforms", mass unemployment, sell out of the country, scorched earth. Only the tiny group of shareholders get more rich.

 

[python]

hrotha, asking your stubborn ignorance to do some reading is not patronizing. the party of regions was abandoned by the party head - the president. their disappointment with the coward and the voting under the guns of the putschist patrolling the parliament building does not mean they accepted anything. they were FORCED and intimidated. again, do some research how the communist party leader house was burned, how a female party of regions member was bullied by a future minister, how a human disappointment with a betrayal of a leader can represent a vote of protest as opposed to a vote of conviction...

 

[hrotha]

I've read plenty about this and have been following the events closely, python. I won't discuss it any further with you until you stop the insults.

 

[Vino attacks everyone]

Hm... for the first time in my life I think I completely agree with Krauthammer.
This article from a couple of days ago.
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/372204/putins-ukraine-gambit-charles-krauthammer

 

[python]

hrotha, what ever reading you've done it clearly is insufficient to appreciate more than the narrow 'anti-american nature' of those you disagree with.

i can not speak for others, but unlike you, i clearly blame both the cynical west and the cynical russians for exploiting the the ethnic, cultural and religious divide between the ukrainians. both !

what exactly criticizing american politics got to do with it ?

when the russians threaten to protect their compatriots, cynical as they may be, they are at least getting involved into the the country having 2000 km common border with them. they are getting involved into a country having 40% of its trade with them. they are getting involved into a country that banned their language for about half of its citizens. they are getting involved on behalf of about one half of the ukrainians who don't care about joining the eu (check the polls) despite being dragged into it by a bunch of putschists from the ukrainian west. they are getting involved on behalf of 150,000 Ukrainian refugees and several million of illegal workers... they are clearly getting involved, yes via manipulations and threats of armed action, into the existentially crucial issues for them.

what exactly are the existential issues for germany, france and the us in the matter ?

 

[hrotha]

i can not speak for others, but unlike you, i clearly blame both the cynical west and the cynical russians for exploiting the the ethnic, cultural and religious divide between the ukrainians. both !

You're putting words in my mouth. I didn't say the EU wasn't partly to blame. In fact, they were the ones who gave Ukraine an ultimatum in regards to their economic offer, not Russia. But the West didn't invade. Russia? Did.

150,000 Ukrainian refugees

This is a completely unsubstantiated figure Russia pulled out of thin air. This seems to be largely the problem here: you believe in the blatant distortions Russian media is spreading. Hence also the "putschists" thing.

edit: oh and I already addressed the language bill.

 

[meat puppet]

i can not speak for others, but unlike you, i clearly blame both the cynical west and the cynical russians for exploiting the the ethnic, cultural and religious divide between the ukrainians. both !

for the record, I think that python has it about right, and IMHO this is the only ethically sustainable "contra" attitude given the facts.

i have expressed my "pro" attitude before, ie the side of the workers, minorities etc. IMHO they are being shafted; the current govt is one of the most suspect/fascist since the IIWW and the shock doctrine offerers are not there to play. but if that's the way the ukrainians choose, so be it. the choice between cholera and plague is not an easy one, as i said before.

I'd wager crimea will split from ukraine. tatars will be shafted once again. hope this does not escalate, but dont believe there will be open warfare, at the moment at least.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

You're putting words in my mouth. I didn't say the EU wasn't partly to blame. In fact, they were the ones who gave Ukraine an ultimatum in regards to their economic offer, not Russia. But the West didn't invade. Russia? Did.

If you believe Russia did invade, the western mainstream press/media did a heck of a great brainwash job to you any many others in the west. That´s excactly how they want people to understand this crisis.
But how you explain all the inconsistencies?
Since when is it a true revolution of people when only 0.1 percent of the population actually were on the streets?
And how did those 50.000 survive weeks long "demonstrating", by skipping their everyday work?
Since when do revolutions end in snipers shooting at regular police men?
Since when did the west care of a dictator owning big houses and cars? (If they did, they would be busy to "free & democratise" a country each day)
When did it ever happen before that a just 4 years ago, free elected president was facing a "revolution"? Isn´t it more like this, that people suffer very long before they stand up en masses?
Why wasn´t the west then putsching against the mega rich Bush I and Bush II? (That´s rhetorical, just to show the absurdness of reasons we get feed in this Ukraine crisis)
Why wasn´t there a revolution when Timoschenko $ucked the Ukraine? (Also rhetorical. She loved the opportunity to sell "her" country to the west.)

No. This was a well planned and financed ahead putsch. The reasons are geostratetical and economical. It´s about power, control and natural resources. And the big co-orperations can add new sales markets for their Monsanto $hit and else, and gain more cheap workers they can use against the western europe organized workers. The IMF can hold another country hostage. And us dumb german taxpayers can pay the bills again (I am not only talking of the next wave of "social tourists"). Like we do for the banksters and EUSSR $uckers in Bruxlles.

Russia did what everyone of us would do: React after someone pi$$ed in the own front yard.
And for our own sake and little rest of our living standard in Germany, I root hard for Putin/Russia to prevail. Not only in the Krim, but the whole Ukraine. Us normal workers don´t need more $uckers that only benefit the co-orperations and Bruxlles.

What we need one day is a true revolution from true people. A real one where all those EU $uckers, co-orperations and politic puppets like Merkel are thrown away. Preferably to the neo-cons in the USA. That´s where they belong.

For hard workers in europe, a real democracy is enough. We don´t like to be experiments of the rich Friedman & Wall Street neo-cons...

 

[RetroActive]

I've always voted communist or socialist (not social-democracy). Also, fυck you for the implication.

Now could you please answer my questions?

hahaha, how did you get that through the language filter?

I was on my way out the door earlier but it gave me time to think about an answer. Totally legit.
https://www.google.ca/search?hl=en-...0...1.1.34.heirloom-hp..0.18.2439.PaL8gRlGhlA

Here's Victoria Nuland talking about the 5 billion spent since '91...and thanking the supporters.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2y0y-JUsPTU
I'll refer you back to Boris Berezovsky, he'll tell you himself how this works. I love to hear things straight from the horse's mouth, don't you?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1Cib5FMq9A

Paid protesters?
https://www.google.ca/search?hl=en-...0...1.1.34.heirloom-hp..0.40.3594.au8uqdKyrws

Python said it best when he was talking about the Ukraine being caught in the middle...a house divided and all that.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

The new, from the west implemented, illegal terror regime in Kiev (that´s what I call a true offensive invasion, even tough done undercover*) treatens Russia with nuclear weapons.
I guess peace nobel prize winner Obama and his gangsters like it pretty much when 3rd parties do their dirty work.
And prize boxer turned "politican" Klitschko (another dangerous maniac) askes for general mobilization.
Hope Russia strikes first before those morons are ready.

http://rt.com/news/ukraine-nuclear-arsenal-threat-314/

"We’ll regain our status as a nuclear power and that’ll change the conversation. Ukraine has all the technological means needed to create a nuclear arsenal – which would take us about three to six months,” Svoboda party MP Mikhail Golovko said.

The rhetoric, which contradicts the international nuclear non-proliferation treaty Ukraine signed in 1994, is not new for the Svoboda party, one of the driving forces behind the Maidan uprising. Its leader, Oleg Tyagnibok, already promised that the country would go nuclear while he was running for the presidency in 2009.

(* Something the USA is very well educated with, especially since the early 1980s and early 2000s)