World Politics

[shawnrohrbach]

I have been following this thread silently and was highly amused a Raven's rants and his ability at baiting others into heated exchanges with absolutely no substance in his postings. He lurks around other postings here and tries to bait anybody and everybody. He is quite masterful at baiting others, but he is just a forum troll. Ah, I've got it. I have the most perfect and apt description. He is a master baiting troll. Ignore him.

 

[scribe]

it amazes me they did it. the flood gates are open unless congress can find a work around. truly one of the worst decisions ever made in u.s. history.

I think they might have upheld laws against civil rights and equal rights, etc, through the history. When you consider that, any interpretation of the law can be found by otherwise rational people.

 

[ravens]

I have been following this thread silently and was highly amused a Raven's rants and his ability at baiting others into heated exchanges with absolutely no substance in his postings. He lurks around other postings here and tries to bait anybody and everybody. He is quite masterful at baiting others, but he is just a forum troll. Ah, I've got it. I have the most perfect and apt description. He is a master baiting troll. Ignore him.

I have more or less stated that I am a true master baiter, congrats on your keen grasp of basic reading.

 

[ravens]

LOL. That's the pattern of message boards playing out in real life.

did u just respond to your own post?

note to scribe, get outside and play.

 

[carvercasey]

i really like obama..
And i also like his new and advance thoughts about presents.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

So by definition tax incentives = welfare? So, I pay taxes, my taxes get lowered for whatever reason and now I'm a welfare recipient? So my income really is the govt's money. Dang.

Well, there's a difference between you benefiting from a tax change, and a group lobbying for a targeted tax "incentive" that applies to a certain industry. You know, like the tax incentive for people to buy Hummers (and other large SUVs) a few years back. Basically just welfare for the oil/auto industry, and buyers fell into that. This happens all the time in every tax bill, and it has nothing to do with Republicans or Democrats, Liberals or Conservatives. It's like a poison gas, seeping it's way into every last crevice.

Well, my inlaws own a vinyard near Nevada City and want my wife and I to go take it over in a few years so they can move to Mexico permanently, that has a decent chance of happening.

WTF? Why in the world would anyone want to move from Nevada City, which is as beautiful of little town as any in America, to anywhere in Mexico is beyond me.

 

[Anonymous]

WTF? Why in the world would anyone want to move from Nevada City, which is as beautiful of little town as any in America, to anywhere in Mexico is beyond me.

I guess you are not familiar with La Manzanilla on the west coast of Mexico? It is amazingly beautiful, their house there is fantastic, and it is cheap to boot. Plus, the stress of running is vineyard is just not that appealing to them since they are in their 60's. They want to vacation year round.

Me, I will probably plow down the vineyard and just live there. Nevada City is a really beautiful place.

 

[ravens]

Bush...here's a guy with an MBA from Yale, and he can not even correctly
pronounce 'nuclear'. he made it a 3 syllable word.

hey it's beer/bong thirty...

OK, I am not gonna be the bad guy on this one, TFF, do you want to break down that whole syllable thing?

I think you may have gotten an early start on that beer bong.

Everything is Bush's fault? Okey doke!

 

[Anonymous]

OK, I am not gonna be the bad guy on this one, TFF, do you want to break down that whole syllable thing?

I think you may have gotten an early start on that beer bong.

Everything is Bush's fault? Okey doke!

Hey, look, my shtick is acting all superior and stuff, but only to people who I self righteously, egotistically, and probably incorrectly consider beneath my mental capacity. I like usedtobe, so I will let him figure it out on his own.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

This is still a form of tax manipulation, but Obama spoke today of giving companies a $5,000 tax credit for each (net) new worker they hire. And each business that increases wages or hours for workers would be reimbursed for the extra SS payroll taxes.

These ideas aren't new, and were mentioned by Warren Buffett a few years ago, and McCain advocated similar ideas during the campaign though didn't push them. The concept also came up last year, but the House rejected it, saying they didn't understand it (in so many words), showing how *** and useless they are as a whole.

It's not a fix all, but I think a step worth seriously considering, and much more "bottom up" than some of the other tax proposals floated by both parties.

 

[CentralCaliBike]

This is still a form of tax manipulation, but Obama spoke today of giving companies a $5,000 tax credit for each (net) new worker they hire. And each business that increases wages or hours for workers would be reimbursed for the extra SS payroll taxes.

Anytime you have this kind of incentive, business will figure a way to collect the benefit without actually increasing the work force if it does not fit in with the needs of the company - that is human nature. If they need to hire more employees to keep up with increased demand they will, and collect the tax credit, if they do not need to hire a new employee, someone will likely find their job reclassified and a new person hired in their place. In the end, the economy will have to improve before there is an increase in hiring - a tax incentive specified for the hire of new workers is not likely to create a need for new workers.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Conceptually the credit applies to net jobs, though in a sense you are correct in that a company ready to lay off a few engineers today, could "replace" them with a few more custodians they needed anyway, and then file for the credit.

What Buffett (and to a lesser extent McCain) were implying in a more general concept was that if equipment purchases can be written-off in taxes as "improvement" why not employees? McCain was concentrating on various industries or R&D for example.

Overall the idea is again more top down, supply-side or "trickle down" thinking in that the government is hoping they can change the tax code to get people working, who in theory would help the cycle of expansion in that they'd be producing more, and spending the money, etc. Will it work? Who knows.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

This is a little off topic, but Clinton once said something casually in about 1997 about why he was advocating deficit reduction and balancing the budget and the so called "lock box" for Social Security (and Medicare) that never happened. He noted almost casually it grew the economy because it kept long term interest rates down, and both investor and consumer confidence up. Now there was no real hard numbers to back what he was saying, and it can be spun so many ways, but there was a lot of common sense to what he was saying.

 

[scribe]

This is a little off topic, but Clinton once said something casually in about 1997 about why he was advocating deficit reduction and balancing the budget and the so called "lock box" for Social Security (and Medicare) that never happened. He noted almost casually it grew the economy because it kept long term interest rates down, and both investor and consumer confidence up. Now there was no real hard numbers to back what he was saying, and it can be spun so many ways, but there was a lot of common sense to what he was saying.

Amen. It was impressive the way the budget was handled. You have to give some credit to the rapid growth and tax rolls after the late 80's recession. I am willing to give some credit to the Republican control in congress as well. You have to give a ton of credit to Clinton's governence.

You can't deny it went to hell in the 2000's. War or not as the common cause, it was extremely reckless.

 

[usedtobefast]

OK, I am not gonna be the bad guy on this one, TFF, do you want to break down that whole syllable thing?

I think you may have gotten an early start on that beer bong.

Everything is Bush's fault? Okey doke!

bush said nuclear...'new cu lur'. 3 syllables. not the 2 that it is.
just go to youtube. pass that over here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hORaebYWDwk

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/nuclear

 

[Anonymous]

Amen. It was impressive the way the budget was handled. You have to give some credit to the rapid growth and tax rolls after the late 80's recession. I am willing to give some credit to the Republican control in congress as well. You have to give a ton of credit to Clinton's governence.

You can't deny it went to hell in the 2000's. War or not as the common cause, it was extremely reckless.

Clinton DID:

Sign welfare reform (OMG, he blamed the poor).

Clinton DIDN'T:

Sign Universal Healthcare.


Had Clinton been able to gather enough support for his "stimulus" plan (early in his first term) and been able to pass Universal Heathcare (single payor govt takeover) you would not have been able to praise his economic brilliance as he would never have signed welfare reform (as he vetoed it twice before eventually, as a practical matter to try and keep his rear end on Air Force One, signing it) and would have racked up debt as far as the eye can see. Kinda like now, only in the hundereds of billions instead of trillions.

Given the Clinton history, I wonder if a Centrist turn is in store for the rocket scientist currently in the Oval Office?

 

[Anonymous]

Notice the trajectory of growth once the Democrats lost control of congress.

Clinton was smart enough to tell the leftists in his party to stuff it, and he managed to get re-elected. My guess is Obama is going to have to do the same thing. We'll soon see if he's a pragmatist or an ideologue.

 

[usedtobefast]

OK, I am not gonna be the bad guy on this one, TFF, do you want to break down that whole syllable thing?

I think you may have gotten an early start on that beer bong.

Everything is Bush's fault? Okey doke!

yes it is 3 syllables but... http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/nuclear

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hORaebYWDwk

 

[scribe]

Notice the trajectory of growth once the Democrats lost control of congress.

That's hilarious. Like pointing out the nuances of a permanent erection.

 

[Anonymous]

All of you need to watch Obama addressing the Republicans today. That man has more balls than the whole room of people he was addressing. I have never witnessed a sitting president take something like that head on, and he did a masterful job. An amazing bit of politics that was.

 

[scribe]

All of you need to watch Obama addressing the Republicans today. That man has more balls than the whole room of people he was addressing. I have never witnessed a sitting president take something like that head on, and he did a masterful job. An amazing bit of politics that was.

There are plenty of Dems around who remember the relentless tormenting the conservatives put on Clinton, particularly early in the his presidency. To be 'presidently' doesn't always fit well in a culture where people believe all the snide political jabs. A guy has to bite back in today's world.

 

[ravens]

Given the Clinton history, I wonder if a Centrist turn is in store for the rocket scientist currently in the Oval Office?

Clinton was forced to face reality when 16 years ago, the public was as disgusted about a government takeover of health care as they are today.

Actually, today's mood is even more sullen, given that it is not answering the question foremost in people's minds: When are you going to make it easier for people who hire to start hiring (that would be evil malevolent greedy corporations, so the forumites can follow along). A paralysis has set in on the part of business because they don't feel secure about their own futures and won't hire until they do. The question that voters DID have about healthcare is to control costs and to allow consumers to have a more direct hand in their own care, not a less direct hand, which is what any Obama approved bill would do.

The people who do not have health insurance, A)have free access to health care as it stands currently. What they do NOT have is health insurance and B) after this monstrosity gets signed by Obama if it ever does they STILL won't have any health insurance for years according to his own bill.

As for the rocket scientist in Office. He IS a smart man, but suffers from a hubris and arrogance that is really starting to grate on moderate/centrist people who voted for him. He thinks he's centrist, he's not, he has been brainwashed by leftists since childhood. Swing voters don't seem to believe it either. He is an ideologue. He went to the Republican caucus today and gave another lecture. I am sure, as TFF noted, that it will be viewed as ballsy by his supporters, but the folks who put him in office that have flaked off....? I am not so sure they will be as impressed by his defiant, uncompromising and sarcastic tone. We will know pretty soon. I don't think it will help much or help for long, but I think after the month he has had, he is due for some bounce sometime soon. But ultimately, the downward spiral is likely to resume because I don't see any meaningful moderation to be likely.

He is kind of in a pinch. He has the left/progressives saying you can't back down now, now is the time to put the pedal to the metal and the Democrats in the house saying 'Moderate!'. They are quaking in their boots after seeing Democrats go down in 2 democrat strongholds like MA and NJ. The Republicans have almost no power whatsoever, but as the public mood gets more impatient for a turnaround, he is rapidly cycling (!) through his enemies, so he is going to need to keep finding new ones. Lobbyists, oil companies, banks and republicans. Lions and tigers and bears, oh my!

 

[usedtobefast]

There are plenty of Dems around who remember the relentless tormenting the conservatives put on Clinton, particularly early in the his presidency. To be 'presidently' doesn't always fit well in a culture where people believe all the snide political jabs. A guy has to bite back in today's world.

newt...
more recently delay....
remember jack abramoff

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Abramoff

 

[fatandfast]

Ravens you could not be more wrong. If you don't have insurance and have a ache or fever, your option is to go to an ER. They will see you and treat you,the bill that results from the visit is the responsibility of the patient, so if you bring your wife or kid twice in a week you owe 1000-2000 min. Our nation has struggled not for health care but to be different than everybody else for over 75 years. Health care has been revisited many times and always mired in so much status quo. The if it ain't broke don't fix it don't work because it's broke. As a result of our system,military,politicians,get socialized medicine and it works well. You fill out paperwork at the start, receive a card and are covered until the card expires. Like the rest of the modern world. I was ashamed that Obama had to try and use some Ross Perot tactics during his speech. We are the country that was making and buying SUV's while the rest of the world looked on completely baffled. Turns out they were right, it really was not sustainable. Obama told of our trains,middle of the road at best,our investment in education,below average, sustainable energy a complete joke. Instead of bringing up other countries that are bettering us in certain disciplines he should have held up some graphs that is what works with the American voter, here is who is in 1st place in this cat, here is your standing. Do you want to be no1? He needs to hold up numbers and let the right dispute that Germany,France,Japan have better trains and health care and here's how much it costs.

 

[Bala Verde]

Notice the trajectory of growth once the Democrats lost control of congress.

The champions of growth!

The only indicator that counts.

How much job creation was there under the GOPhers? Boosting growth by selling off public goods, deregulation through the roof, loss of any type of consumer protection, near jobless growth through bubble markets, financial gimmickery, and banking products no one understands. A high stake game, you win big, you lose big.

What an impressive record of GOP rule.

and then... the country is in shambles with third world rankings in multiple sectors, from education to health care, to... economics, finance, corruption, homicides, infant morbidity.

The land of the free... if you make it past the age of 1, and then a million.