World Politics

[Echoes]

..and who here reads New-York Post. Seriously...

Moronic article.

 

[Amsterhammer]

Guess who said this, without googling!

“We discard a whole generation to maintain an economic system that no longer endures, a system that to survive has to make war, as the big empires have always done."

The current Pope, bless his Argie socks. As blutto rightly pointed out, this kind of talk will only put him in danger of his life.

 

[blackcat]

I'm glad you read it. I've been reading your thoughts on the subject and have noticed a few...ahem, omissions.

If the area is Balkanized then that's plays according to script. The Israelis have articulated these goals for years as a means for regional hegemony. Interests spread out and intersect from there. I don't know how well understood this is by the ISIS tools.

yes, jabotinsky, iron wall, perle,wolfie,wurmser clean break strategy securing realm PNAC fullspectrumdominance et al et al

i dont think those with their own script in ISIS give a $hit about israel other than aspirations to smite them in the future, but that is as deluded as their sectarian war on persian and shiaa and other infidel.

israel is but the 51st state of the yanks. whilst there is oil and need for an aircraft carrier, bibi will always get an invite to the whitehouse. but when the oil runs out then the whitehouse wont put up with the sh!t bibi pulls. that is why AIPAC is important, not for today, but the future. They might also have to make choices when the power levers swing east and DC is not longer the power.

 

[blackcat]

..and who here reads New-York Post. Seriously...

Moronic article.

its more than that. not the reading. but if the caliphate talking points and scare idiom has got traction to be published in Murdochs tabloid... this is bigger than you are implying re:trivial. i am not reading it, but on a meta level

think, the NSA keep metadata. metadata can tell much and it is easily logged. at the moment, voice to text recording cannot provide the clean image that metadata offers spooks,

State department propaganda talking points? when they hit the tabloids? this is a major threshold that could be important. Samuel Huntingtingtons thesis may be more prophesy. less Huntington more nostradus, clash civilizations selffulfilling

 

[MBotero]

..and who here reads New-York Post. Seriously...

Moronic article.

Moronic,maybe.But there are some things that have some kind of sense,not at the scale presented in this article anyway.
Why not reading everything and choose what to believe.

 

[RetroActive]

@ Amsterhammer

Some seriously eye-opening stuff here too about the wealth and organization of our latest opponents in the apocalyptic war on terror.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...s-wealth-power

If you believe that kind of reporting you must really be wondering just how dumb intelligence can be.

The Latest Regional Slugfest
On to Baghdad
http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/06/13/on-to-baghdad/

 

[Echoes]

The current Pope, bless his Argie socks. As blutto rightly pointed out, this kind of talk will only put him in danger of his life.

Why? It's only words. When the Pope rejects Vatican II perhaps he will risk finishing like John Paul I.

israel is but the 51st state of the yanks.

Or the other way round perhaps. What is the true hierarchy?

State department propaganda talking points? when they hit the tabloids? this is a major threshold that could be important. Samuel Huntingtingtons thesis may be more prophesy. less Huntington more nostradus, clash civilizations selffulfilling

Sort of agree. I know about the self-fulfilling prophecies and Huntington's theory, though actually the "Clash of Civilizations" was originally a Bernard Lewis idea.

But it's frightening. We have a lot of people of Arabic roots in Europe. I personally know a lot of them, have no problem with them. Most of them are practicing Muslims (and not 'moderate'). The hidden idea behind these articles (full of lies of course) is to create a civil war in Europe and to turn the economic crisis that Wall Street is responsible for into a war of religions between Christians and Muslims.

 

[Buffalo Soldier]

How is arab muslims killing other arab muslims a 'clash of civilizations'? I don't think that was what Huntington was thinking about...

 

[python]

a new, so far most loaded phase in the west vs russia economic stand off has started this morning.

it is called the 3d natural gas war btwn ukraine and russia. the 1st war was in 2006 and the 2nd in 2009.

as of 4am london time russia has officially put ukraine into a prepayment regime which effectively means cutting ukrinian's gas supply for lack of past payments.

the most significant difference of this war from the previous ones is that the eu, being then more or less neutral, has now officially taken sides and is an active player and perhaps an unwitting instigator, despite imagining itself a mediator.

the consequences for all involved, particularly europe, could be most devastating if let unsettled from an economic standpoint...i essentially view it as europe potentially causing its own ULTIMATE economic sanction - a total cut off from russian gas.

for me personally, the most curious thing is how vlad will play his chess game THIS time. he won the previous 2 gas wars against ukraine with europe neutral...the game has a multitude of interesting moves and counter-punches.
most initial moves can be predicted and will undoubtedly follow the 2009 scenario. iow, russia cuts ukrainian share, ukraine steals gas intended for europe, russia cuts more etc untill the flow totally stops. the big problem for the ukraine's game THIS time will be that they will be stealing from their sponsor who may get angry. also, unlike in 2009, there are bypass routes significantly decreasing (but not eliminating) russia's dependence on ukrainian transit pipes.

in ukraine's favour now in addition to partisan, but as usual clueless europe, an increasingly aggressive uncle sam is breathing lots and lots of gazprom fire.

 

[Amsterhammer]

@ Amsterhammer



If you believe that kind of reporting you must really be wondering just how dumb intelligence can be.

I will not stand for any dissing of The Guardian, which has been my primary newspaper of choice since 1968. I have never knowingly been lied to by them, so I have no problem accepting their stories as factual. I have no reasons to disbelieve their reporting. Your link in no way contradicted anything in the Guardian story.

 

[RetroActive]

I will not stand for any dissing of The Guardian, which has been my primary newspaper of choice since 1968. I have never knowingly been lied to by them, so I have no problem accepting their stories as factual. I have no reasons to disbelieve their reporting. Your link in no way contradicted anything in the Guardian story.

Whether the intelligence haul can do much to reel in Isis after the fact seems a moot point, with the group having already wrought so much carnage in such a short time. "We will eventually find them," said the Iraqi official. "We knew they had infiltrated the ministries and the most frustrating thing about that flash [stick] was it only had initials. We are focusing on the initials that had the annotation 'valuable' next to them."

Other names were clearly of lesser use, he said. They were marked with "lazy", "undecided" or "needs monitoring".

More than ever before is now known about how Isis has gathered steam. The past week has also been an advanced education in its capabilities and ambitions. "Now we have to catch up with them," the official said.

Sorry not buying it. With all the revelations about how the Great Game of Geopolitics is played over the years I find it difficult to believe that the bus driver isn't affiliated with one intelligence agency or another.

 

[blackcat]

Dahr Jamail brings it. http://scotthorton.org/interviews/2014/06/10/061014-dahr-jamail/
As i said, ISIS (caliphate) a self fulfilling prophesy by the bush admin neo-cons. Everyone (python especially in this thread) can be critical about Obama, and for good reason, however, one must concede, the cards were marked and the decisions on much of the FoPo made by the Bush admin, and Obama is just dealing with the mess. btw, i would not vote for him. But Obama's power, is just about massaging in this direction or that direction, the major decisions have already been made. Idiots in echo chamber media can talk about his Bashar Asad red line warning, but come on, is that really it. it may be a strategy101 error which Henry K and Zbigniew Brzezinski and jimmy baker would sn!gger at, but this only concerns international policy academics and hang ringers in the beltway. if you wanna talk power projection and deterrence, need to slate that bill to cheney and bush, not obama

its more than that. not the reading. but if the caliphate talking points and scare idiom has got traction to be published in Murdochs tabloid... this is bigger than you are implying re:trivial. i am not reading it, but on a meta level

think, the NSA keep metadata. metadata can tell much and it is easily logged. at the moment, voice to text recording cannot provide the clean image that metadata offers spooks,

State department propaganda talking points? when they hit the tabloids? this is a major threshold that could be important. Samuel Huntingtingtons thesis may be more prophesy. less Huntington more nostradus, clash civilizations selffulfilling

The bits you quote, imo, leave much to be desired, and give a wrong impression of the points of the article. From the same article, immediately preceding your 2nd quote:



If this is what ISIS wants (which is a big assumption on the author's part and mine), then this could be one of the best possible outcomes for this area. At least that would leave some safety valve where the energy behind the current conflicts could see some relief. A Balkanization of the area. It is a big assumption to think, though, that ISIS will stop with the north. One of the mindsets of both factions is "we are better, and they should be like us". Like ****stan and India, and the Balkans, perhaps some self-imposed segregation, while disruptive in the short term, may be beneficial to stability in the long term.

One of the difficulties for such a scenario, at least with ISIS, is that it may be encouraging the religious extremist factions, a la Iran. A lot of people would be oppossed to giving those factions any encouragement.

 

[hiero2]

..and who here reads New-York Post. Seriously...

Moronic article.

As Bugs so famously quipped: "What a maroon!"

But who was he referring to? And what did he really mean?

The NY Post article was hardly moronic. It is actually a very good intro into some of basic details of what the heck is going on.

Their conclusions, though, at the end, I am far from sure I agree with. But, that is only their conclusions of what "should" be.

So, to call it moronic? I turn the tables.

"What a maroon!"
"And may god have mercy on your soul."
"Ok, a simple 'wrong' would've been fine, but uh . . ."

 

[hiero2]

Dahr Jamail brings it. yada yada etc etc . . .

Blackcat, I know you like to do TOT style authoring. For such subjects, though, and at the level of thought you have invested in this, you need to revert to plain english.

I think, but I am not sure, that you have serious thoughts on the topic. The TOT style posting is WAY to hard to follow in this case.

Your arguments are dismissed as non-influential and not important. Not because they ARE, but rather because they are so poorly argued.

I think I might agree with you. I can't tell for sure. Sorry if this is annoying, but imagine what it would be like if you could hear what I am thinking!

 

[blackcat]

Why? It's only words. When the Pope rejects Vatican II perhaps he will risk finishing like John Paul I.



Or the other way round perhaps. What is the true hierarchy?



Sort of agree. I know about the self-fulfilling prophecies and Huntington's theory, though actually the "Clash of Civilizations" was originally a Bernard Lewis idea.

But it's frightening. We have a lot of people of Arabic roots in Europe. I personally know a lot of them, have no problem with them. Most of them are practicing Muslims (and not 'moderate'). The hidden idea behind these articles (full of lies of course) is to create a civil war in Europe and to turn the economic crisis that Wall Street is responsible for into a war of religions between Christians and Muslims.

bernie lewis, founder of orientalism.

in no way tangental, London's Oriental School is an extremely good school up there with Cambridge and MIT and the best

 

[blackcat]

Blackcat, I know you like to do TOT style authoring. For such subjects, though, and at the level of thought you have invested in this, you need to revert to plain english.

I think, but I am not sure, that you have serious thoughts on the topic. The TOT style posting is WAY to hard to follow in this case.

Your arguments are dismissed as non-influential and not important. Not because they ARE, but rather because they are so poorly argued.

I think I might agree with you. I can't tell for sure. Sorry if this is annoying, but imagine what it would be like if you could hear what I am thinking!

Dahr Jamail appeal to authority... snip.

The "caliphate" talking point by the neo-cons was never valid. NEVER. It might have been written down by mullahs and islamic extremists, but they were never going to push back modernity. But we got a meme instead. The caliphate, and the dangerous muslim. Which took a significant material from classic anti-semitism.

The caliphate, was never a relevant medium term possibility, and a nil possibility in the long term.

I think the conversation about Obama's role in this second term, is not paying heed to the restrictions he has. Most of his decisions, are how to deal with the mess Cheney and Bush have left him.

The media i subscribe too, and hear repeatedly about the incoherency in the policy in Ukraine, and Syria/Levant, also lacks a nuance about the exigencies Obama faces. Some of the policies will have a lag effect of years, and the Capitol is such an enormous bureaucracy, Obama is so removed from the ground and actors making significant decisions. ie. money channelled to Qatar to topple Ghadaffi finds its way into arms that toppled Libya but now seek to topple Asad, but in the hands of terrorists who would fight for a franchise of AQ.

The reality is, incoherency, or a conflict of some policies, will always occur, because the individual organisations are so vast and so removed from the theory in the White House.

I suppose, i am a fan of incoherency

 

[blackcat]

As Bugs so famously quipped: "What a maroon!"

But who was he referring to? And what did he really mean?

The NY Post article was hardly moronic. It is actually a very good intro into some of basic details of what the heck is going on.

Their conclusions, though, at the end, I am far from sure I agree with. But, that is only their conclusions of what "should" be.

So, to call it moronic? I turn the tables.

"What a maroon!"
"And may god have mercy on your soul."
"Ok, a simple 'wrong' would've been fine, but uh . . ."

my point on the NYPost... if a soundbite/talking point, like "global islamic caliphate" has crossed over into the mainstream, this article is extremely relevant when such a phrase is invoked in the Murdoch tabloid. (and not just Fox News and Bill Oreilly).

if it has crossed over to the mainstream, this is relevant, on this meta level.

 

[blackcat]

Who was behind the misguided adventure after all? Hobbes or Halliburton?

false dichotomy,


both


and really, its not a gestalt, because you can come up with 100 different reasons by reading 99 different whitepapers from thinktanks. some are competing, or conflicting motives.

it is just not cogent for one theory or force motive. Even if the President tells himself one reason, or multiple reasons, to himself when he looks into the mirror. He, or she, will not even appreciate of the myriad of forces that compel a discreet decision. The decision, it all practice, is not discreet.

i have not read Hegel, but is this not his overarching motif on his philosophy, which is then boiled down to the wiki layperson thesisantithesis

not oil, not democracy, not ringfencing china, not israel, not christian-judeo values, not full spectrum dominance (power projection), not hegemony over eastern europe, not new resource markets in central asia and pipelines

ALL of those things, in varying degrees.

 

[blackcat]

The problem was, from the outset, an approach governed by a corporate managerial mentality that predominates among the political so called American "think tanks," just as it does in applying such criteria to accademic performance in fields where the laws of business stats have no application, such as in humane critical thinking. This is because by now the Americans think that everthing can be run like a business. A nation, society? That's just another corporate setup and so can be managed accordingly.

Those of infinite wisdom among the US war mongers who precipitously lead America into the Iraq invasion, thought they could just blow the country to smithereens ("shock and awe" I believe was how it was put) and then remold the nation the way a company is made and have it run like a Western business. In the Middle East. The total clusterfook it has become in the secterian violence and local tribal non-conformism to the US plan, to anybody with a discerning mind was a foregone conclusion.

How crass.

Robert McNamara

history repeats

 

[RetroActive]

The Brutal Logic of a Self-Seeking Empire
Is Open-Ended Chaos the Desired US-Israeli Aim in the Middle East?

http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/06...he-desired-us-israeli-aim-in-the-middle-east/

 

[rhubroma]

Dahr Jamail appeal to authority... snip.

The "caliphate" talking point by the neo-cons was never valid. NEVER. It might have been written down by mullahs and islamic extremists, but they were never going to push back modernity. But we got a meme instead. The caliphate, and the dangerous muslim. Which took a significant material from classic anti-semitism.

The caliphate, was never a relevant medium term possibility, and a nil possibility in the long term.

I think the conversation about Obama's role in this second term, is not paying heed to the restrictions he has. Most of his decisions, are how to deal with the mess Cheney and Bush have left him.

The media i subscribe too, and hear repeatedly about the incoherency in the policy in Ukraine, and Syria/Levant, also lacks a nuance about the exigencies Obama faces. Some of the policies will have a lag effect of years, and the Capitol is such an enormous bureaucracy, Obama is so removed from the ground and actors making significant decisions. ie. money channelled to Qatar to topple Ghadaffi finds its way into arms that toppled Libya but now seek to topple Asad, but in the hands of terrorists who would fight for a franchise of AQ.

The reality is, incoherency, or a conflict of some policies, will always occur, because the individual organisations are so vast and so removed from the theory in the White House.

I suppose, i am a fan of incoherency

To the bold, you didn't mention that the ISIS monster was generated in Syria. The forces that now arrive in Iraq are of foreign provenance. There's a direct connection between the Syrian civil war and Obama not having intervened at Damascus, which permitted the rise of Sunnite extremism. Furthermore, these are financed by the same as those in Iraq: from rich private citizens of the Persian Gulf, to those in the governments of Saudi Arabia and Qatar. Within their strategy Syria and Iraq form a single enlarged battle ground in the conflict with Iran, in a war of recruiting and fighting among terrorists. ISIS is a creature under the direction of the Saudi Bandar, ex-chief of intelligence of Riad.

Bandar was also a great ally of Bush Sr. and Bush Jr. and the artifice of the mujahedin in Afghanistan, who only recently was removed through US pressure, even if his terrorist network is till alive and well-financed. Thus in a stroke of tragic irony before Bush's war in Iraq, terrorism was relatively absent in Syria and Iraq, while now it has spread throughout the territory and is thriving.

 

[RetroActive]

To the bold, you didn't mention that the ISIS monster was generated in Syria. The forces that now arrive in Iraq are of foreign provenance. There's a direct connection between the Syrian civil war and Obama not having intervened at Damascus, which permitted the rise of Sunnite extremism. Furthermore, these are financed by the same as those in Iraq: from rich private citizens of the Persian Gulf, to those in the governments of Saudi Arabia and Qatar. Within their strategy Syria and Iraq form a single enlarged battle ground in the conflict with Iran, in a war of recruiting and fighting among terrorists. ISIS is a creature under the direction of the Saudi Bandar, ex-chief of intelligence of Riad.

Bandar was also a great ally of Bush Sr. and Bush Jr. and the artifice of the mujahedin in Afghanistan, who only recently was removed through US pressure, even if his terrorist network is till alive and well-financed. Thus in a stroke of tragic irony before Bush's war in Iraq, terrorism was relatively absent in Syria and Iraq, while now it has spread throughout the territory and is thriving.

...and you could go further back to the creation of these states by the British and French that drew the lines (unnaturally) so as to have various divisions within each state making outside management easier (for resources).

People wonder why strongmen rule these states...

Counterpunch has a few interesting articles today fleshing out various aspects: http://www.counterpunch.org/

Iraq Breaks Down, Oil Surges
The context underlying the growing crisis
http://www.peakprosperity.com/blog/85802/iraq-breaks-down-oil-surges

 

[rhubroma]

...and you could go further back to the creation of these states by the British and French that drew the lines (unnaturally) so as to have various divisions within each state making outside management easier (for resources).

People wonder why strongmen rule these states...

Counterpunch has a few interesting articles today fleshing out various aspects: http://www.counterpunch.org/

Iraq Breaks Down, Oil Surges
The context underlying the growing crisis
http://www.peakprosperity.com/blog/85802/iraq-breaks-down-oil-surges

Or in the former Jugoslavia, for which it took the strong arm of a communist dictator to squash sectarian, ethnic-religious inspired conflict.

 

[RetroActive]

Or in the former Jugoslavia, for which it took the strong arm of a communist dictator to squash sectarian, ethnic-religious inspired conflict.

Now 'Balkanizing" the M.E..


Iraq blowback: Isis rise manufactured by insatiable oil addiction
West's co-optation of Gulf states' jihadists created the neocon's best friend: an Islamist Frankenstein
http://www.theguardian.com/environm...blowback-isis-iraq-manufactured-oil-addiction

btw, talks fail and...Ukraine-Russia Near "Serious Conflict" Following Explosion In Largest European Gas Transit Pipeline
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-...lict-following-gas-transit-pipeline-explosion

NATO is going to be busy.

 

[Echoes]

bernie lewis, founder of orientalism.

in no way tangental, London's Oriental School is an extremely good school up there with Cambridge and MIT and the best

I don't know if they are good or not but Lewis is definitely the neocon darlin and constantly refer to a "Judeo-Christian" heritage, refering to the West while the whole "Judeo-Christian" concept - which you are mentioning in another post - in itself is a massive fraud. There's no such thing as "Judeo-Christianism", there's Judaism and Christianism and the two clash with each other. Europe has a Christian and a Hellenistic heritage.

I'm in favour of the return of the Caliphate, though it's not likely to happen. The real one as it had existed until 1925, when the Wahhabits, supported by the Brits, took the Hedjaz, overthrowing the last Sharif. The Wahhabits were a heresy for real fundamental Muslims. NYP obviously won't mention that. It would have disappeared if it wasn't for the Brits. They are not fundamentalists. Actually they aren't officially Muslims since it's a heresy. Real Islam and the real Caliphate was not Wahhabit, was not terrorist and neither Jihadist. Real Islam no longer actually exist, at a political level, today...