World Politics

[blutto]

2) The Ukrainians shot down the plane with an air-to-air missile. In this case, it was probably intentional

The wording of 2), the explanation for why it happened, is not mine. It’s yours,

....gee I don't remember producing that particular wording....I do remember introducing some articles to this thread which I thought may shed some light on this incident and they listed loads of possibilities...personally I think the air to air missile scenario is very very low on the list of possibilities and I was quite surprised when it was brought up by the Russians yesterday....

...would be nice if you could show me and the thread where I, like me, specifically said those particular things about the "air to air missile" and "it was probably intentional" ( and frankly linking air to air missile and it was "probably" intentional is forking stupid, ( like when is an air to air missile not launched with deadly intent) and for the record my analysis stops at just plain stupid...I have standards you know )

....and thank you in advance....

Cheers

 

[blutto]

what?

Best regards

....seems the grinning like a forking idiot emoticon was unfortunately not included....so to clarify things, the term you are looking for is facetious....you are very welcome...

...oh and as well forgot to say that when Putin phoned the rebels he also specified anchovies on his pizza....

Cheers

 

[python]

Nor did Kerry mention the fact that the Ukrainian military –who also had BUK missile systems in the area–may have mistakenly taken down the airliner.

Now that is a view I’m willing to consider...

if that's the view you are willing to consider, than you should add it to the other 2 scenarios that sent you in a circular logic to prove a point...

as i said several times, including a post above, the ukrainians already shot down a civilian liner with a sam before, and their military is in worst shape than ever...

also, keep in mind, just 2 days before the catastrophe, the rebels shot down a ukrainian cargo plain flying at 6500 m...poroshenko personally blamed it on a russian fighter. it would be perfectly possible that their inapt, untrained military were nervous and ready to shoot a russian fighter... this scenario is as likely as the rebels shooting it.

another key consideration is the us claimed the sam was fired from a rebel=controlled area...this seems a red herring to me b/c a mobile transporter can be in any area considering that rebels are mostly manning the barricades and entry points. they are, by their own claims, about 5,000 strong in the area the size of holland.

 

[Amsterhammer]

......as i said several times, including a post above, the ukrainians already shot down a civilian liner with a sam before, and their military is in worst shape than ever...

You keep bringing this irrelevant red herring up. That sad tragedy played out in a different era, in totally different circumstances. Your only point in binging it up time and again is to display your strong anti-Kiev bias. (I gather that you are E. European, I have no idea where from, so perhaps you have very personal reasons for your feelings - I have no personal feelings here, except a strong desire to seek truth and responsibility.)

another key consideration is the us claimed the sam was fired from a rebel=controlled area...this seems a red herring to me b/c a mobile transporter can be in any area considering that rebels are mostly manning the barricades and entry points. they are, by their own claims, about 5,000 strong in the area the size of holland.

Sorry, this is just bullsh!t. Satellites can and do track the trails and signatures of missiles fired that high. Thy can pinpoint to within a few kms exactly where the missile was launched from. Today's new info input includes a US map (yes, it could be a complete lie) showing that the missile trail originated in rebel territory, and new pictures of pock-marked plane debris showing exactly the kind of damage one would expect to see after a proximity explosion of thousands of little metal bits, exactly the payload of the BUK warhead.

Meanwhile, the bodies are in Kharkiv, waiting to be flown to Amsterdam tomorrow so that forensic identification can finally begin.

UK PM David Cameron - "We've agreed Dutch request for air accident investigators at Farnborough to retrieve data from ‪#‎MH17‬ black boxes for international analysis."

 

[Merckx index]

....gee I don't remember producing that particular wording....I do remember introducing some articles to this thread which I thought may shed some light on this incident and they listed loads of possibilities...personally I think the air to air missile scenario is very very low on the list of possibilities and I was quite surprised when it was brought up by the Russians yesterday....

...would be nice if you could show me and the thread where I, like me, specifically said those particular things about the "air to air missile" and "it was probably intentional" ( and frankly linking air to air missile and it was "probably" intentional is forking stupid, ( like when is an air to air missile not launched with deadly intent) and for the record my analysis stops at just plain stupid...I have standards you know )

....and thank you in advance....

Cheers

.

Fine, I apologize, from reading some of the links you provided, I got the notion that air-to-air was a strong possibility that you believed in. But that is a very minor issue in the context of my post. The key point I was making is that you are holding up a choice of intentional vs. accidental. And to say that the key question is cui bono—not that it might be, but that it is--is to come down on the side of intentional, because that question is irrelevant –as a clue to who was responsible--if it was an accident. If you substitute SAM, or anything else, for air-to-air, in my previous post, it doesn’t change the essence of my point in the slightest. You know that.

if that's the view you are willing to consider, than you should add it to the other 2 scenarios that sent you in a circular logic to prove a point...

Oh, I'm fine with other scenarios. I think they're less likely, but I'm open to them. But the stark choice, which was the whole point of my post, is still between accidental—regardless of how many different types of accidents there can be--and intentional. And to repeat what I said to Blutto, very few people--including you, I take it--are going to buy the notion that the U.S. was behind this strike.

 

[ToreBear]

Gaza conflict

It looks like a cease fire is moving closer. I think the Israelis have begun to regret their escalation.
- They are loosing more soldiers than they thought they would.
- The deeper they advance the more soldiers die.
- The rockets being able to cover the whole of Israel is screwing up it's tourism season, and hurting the economy.
- Foreign airlines now canceling flights is really going to screw them-

- And they look really bad everywhere except in the US where (AFAIK) the main media sources are peddling Israeli talking points.


The Palestinians I think have put their heads together and come up with demands. They will push for a mechanism to make sure Israel follows through. The Israelis did not in 2012, so the Palestinians have learnt their lesson.

 

[ToreBear]

Seems like the US is preparing to publicize intelligence showing/indicating the rebels responsibility.

It will be interesting to see what they put out there. I would love it if they decided to release something with a higher resolution than civilian satellites are allowed to.

Anyway, I expect new conspiracy theories etc to keep the true believers in Russia's innocence/righteousness, still believing.

 

[ScienceIsCool]

Oh, give me a break. So Obama told Ukraine to shoot down a commercial airliner, full of Europeans and AIDS researchers, to gain some advantages in the ongoing war?

This is as loony as anything the right wing ever comes up with. The reason he brings up the benefits issue is transparently because if, as is overwhelmingly likely, this was an accident, it was almost certainly perpetrated by the rebels. You have to find a benefits angle to take away the focus from them.

I’m open to serious evidence bearing on the source of the missile, including where it was fired from, how far it could have traveled, and so on, but when you have to postulate the U.S. wanting to down a commercial airliner to rationalize why a Ukrainian jet would have fired the missile, you’ve lost your case. He would have sounded far more credible and less biassed if he had just said, I have no idea why a Ukrainian fighter would fire the missile, but this is what the evidence leads me to believe.

Taking a look at some extra evidence might help with any analysis. Some newly reported facts include:

- The infamous video on YouTube of a TELAR driving along a road with a missing SA-11 (BuK M1) has a billboard in the background with a car dealer ad on it. The address (34 Dnepropetrovsk Street) is in Krasnoarmysk, which is firmly under Ukrainian government control and has been for months. Considering this, the fact that someone was hidden and videotaping that location, and the speed with which the video appeared is highly suggestive that it was manufactured ahead of time for PR purposes. Further, this suggests prior knowledge that an event with SA-11's would take place.

- Russian supplied satellite imagery shows several BuK systems and all their related gear (TELARs, TELs, Kupol radar, etc) in Ukranian control and under movement in the days preceding the event. Redeployment suggests an operational need, which is curious because the rebels don't have any aircraft. Possible reasons may be due to strategic needs based on possible Russian activities, but the timing is there.

- The number of Kupol radars (necessary for tracking and targeting data) active spiked from 2-3 per day to a hugely increased 9 on the 17th and 18th, back down to 2-3. Kupols only have a range of 50 km, so several are necessary to track a fast moving aircraft. A single Kupol would only have had 5 minutes of tracking information for the airliner in question. You'd need substantially more if you wanted to track an airliner over a reasonably sized area for a time sufficient to track and intercept with a BuK.

- An SU-25 intercepted the airliner and should have been close enough to make a rough visual identification. For what reason? Tough to say, but there had to be a reason. You don't joy ride around in an SU-25, chasing after whatever might strike your fancy.

Analysis of this data suggests that there was prior intent and knowledge that an event would occur with an SA-11. Ukranian activity immediately preceding the event suggests that they intended to be operational with a BuK system.

The best conclusion on the very sparse information is that it was intentional and that it was perpetrated by Ukranian forces. There's nothing to suggest that the intended target was a civilian airliner. Nor is there any evidence who might have ordered this event to occur.

John Swanson

 

[ScienceIsCool]

Seems like the US is preparing to publicize intelligence showing/indicating the rebels responsibility.

It will be interesting to see what they put out there. I would love it if they decided to release something with a higher resolution than civilian satellites are allowed to.

Anyway, I expect new conspiracy theories etc to keep the true believers in Russia's innocence/righteousness, still believing.

It might be useful to take a look at the evidence and where it is coming from. Forget the rhetoric and posturing. Look at the actions.

The US had a satellite directly overhead at the time of the incident. In the first 24 hours they reported that they had visual and UV indications that a SAM had been fired from the region. Where's a redacted photo showing the time and location of the launch? That is indisputable evidence and it is not being made available.

The Ukraine has a recording of all ATC chatter including communications with this airliner. The previous MH disaster from just four months ago had transcripts available from pretty much day one. Where are Ukraine's? Why not release them? What do they contain?

Russia has released satellite imagery as well as radar data. They are also calling for a full and impartial investigation and have refused to take control of the black boxes - insisting that they be handed over to the Dutch.

So who is acting guilty, and who is acting as if they've got nothing to fear? Regardless of what you might think of the parties involved, it looks like the Ukraine and the US are up to something, while Russia looks eager to prove its innocence.

John Swanson

 

[python]

You keep bringing this irrelevant red herring up.

lt ls irrelevant to you because it does not fit your bias. Incompetent military starved of funds is just the same. As to my background it is none of your business, besides I am not e. European nor ever was to those lands

The rest of your post is none sense because as I once said you are too emotianally attached to your ideology of hating certain politicians. You also reviel your incompetence re. The military space tech...not saying I am, but I am less brainwashed then you, an american living abroad.

Your statements about interested in the truth are disingenuous, someone calling one side to the conflict drunks and scum can not be objective.
Otoh, I said many times, that I consider the rebels and their sponsor russia, quite probable to cause the crisis...

 

[ToreBear]

It might be useful to take a look at the evidence and where it is coming from. Forget the rhetoric and posturing. Look at the actions.

The US had a satellite directly overhead at the time of the incident. In the first 24 hours they reported that they had visual and UV indications that a SAM had been fired from the region. Where's a redacted photo showing the time and location of the launch? That is indisputable evidence and it is not being made available.

The Ukraine has a recording of all ATC chatter including communications with this airliner. The previous MH disaster from just four months ago had transcripts available from pretty much day one. Where are Ukraine's? Why not release them? What do they contain?

Russia has released satellite imagery as well as radar data. They are also calling for a full and impartial investigation and have refused to take control of the black boxes - insisting that they be handed over to the Dutch.

So who is acting guilty, and who is acting as if they've got nothing to fear? Regardless of what you might think of the parties involved, it looks like the Ukraine and the US are up to something, while Russia looks eager to prove its innocence.

John Swanson

It took 4-5 days to get some of the bodies, 4-5 days to be allowed full unimpeded access. It took days for the seps to hand over the black boxes even though they found them several days earlier. The crash site has been tampered with, and it looks like pieces have been removed...

I guess we just see things differently...

 

[ScienceIsCool]

The debris (and presumable bodies) was spread over a 9 km radius. That's 65 square kilometers of land to secure, search, and retrieve material. Two to three days (not four or five - not sure where you got that) by a bunch of amateurs in a war zone is not bad. Given the number of journalists walking around the rubble, I'm not sure you can say that anything nefarious was done by the rebels at the crash site.

John Swanson

 

[blutto]

.

Fine, I apologize, ..... If you substitute SAM, or anything else, for air-to-air, in my previous post, it doesn’t change the essence of my point in the slightest. You know that.

....apology accepted for the initial offence, now will you stop putting words in my mouth to try to make yourself look less than the %&%# you were in your last post....how about we substitute pizza or small furry bunny for air-to-air for all the difference it will make in your argument ( it was a pile of B$ to begin with and no matter how you spin it it is still B$...your work here makes SoWrong look like a genius...)

...I have not as yet laid out a position on this....as I said quite plainly in a earlier post this is "curiouser and curiouser"....

....but here is what "we" know that I would consider relevant....

...1) both sides had BUK launchers in the area....

..2) a large Ukrainian transport plane was shot down in the vicinity flying at high altitude a few days before the MH 17 incident ( Kiev oddly says a Russian fighter took that down, yet was "supposed" to know that the rebel faction had a BUK launcher that could also have been the means to take down the plane... and a missile would have made more sense but the cheap shot at Russian intervention was for some "mysterious" reason marched out instead.... )..

...3) several Ukrainian aircraft have been taken down in eastern Ukraine...

...4) commercial aircraft continue to fly across The Ukraine and some fly across the area where MH 17 came down...including MH 17 which is directed to take a route different from its usual passage across The Ukraine and which takes it right into the area where #2 occurred....note the FAA has declared the area to be dangerous for months prior....

..5) MN 17 is destroyed...and both Kiev and the USA get an early Christmas present of an opportunity to demonize Putin and advance their various agendas....

....so how did MH 17 meet its fate?....seems everyone agrees it was brought down by a missile, which until recently was assumed to be a BUK, but now some scenario with air-to-air has entered the discussion...fired apparently by something akin to a Cessna 172...

...the BUK scenario could well have been an accident fueled by stupidity and/or incompetence neither of which are in short supply on both sides of the Ukrainian conflict, and maybe helped by a strong dose of alcohol....and there was apparently another Ukrainian transport somewhere in the area when MH 17 was hit which may have been an intended target...

...it could also have been an accident helped by a policy by the Kiev regime that kept sending flights into the area until "something happened " and Christmas arriving early....would be interesting to know how flight patterns over The Ukraine changed after the realization by Kiev that the rebels could take down a high flying plane....

...it could also have been a deliberate shoot down by National Guards ( the drunken fascist scum that played a major in the Maidan Square massacres now dressed as soldiers and playing war in eastern Ukraine and getting their a$$e$ kicked )....why?...because they are stupid blood thirsty thugs and they had access to the right button?...and there are reports that some of them are professional cleaners....

...do note that The Ukrainian economic situation has gotten worse since the glorious revolution...the economy is seriously in the $h!tter to the point that the Kiev regime has asked for a further $17bil in loans....the revolt has to quashed real quick or glorious revolution will go kablooie and there will be hell to pay for its leaders and supporters ( their support isn't that widespread in fact its pretty damn thin and tempers are rising among the "peasantry" )....

...and the situation for the US policy to pull Russia and Europe apart was unravelling quite nicely before MH 17....and one cannot overemphasize how important that policy has become to the US...

...so if the MH 17 crash is now a crime scene lets play cops and felons and narrow down the list of suspects by playing a game of motive, means, and opportunity shall we....well the Kiev regime certainly looks good here as it has priors, is desperate, and has recently spilt blood....the US also looks good and it has a long sordid history of priors, is desperate and has spilled rivers of blood, but it has no obvious direct means ( save for one unsavoury joker in the deck)....as for the other side, no real motive apart from maybe shooting down another transport, a questionable means, and opportunity ( though for Russia specifically a huge major downside in terms of world opinion and relations with Europe which is the only end game that matters )...

...so still curiouser and curiouser....the only guide is the track record of the various players....and they are all dodgy....like real please leave the planet and go directly to hell dodgy...

Cheers

 

[python]

O
h, I'm fine with other scenarios. I think they're less likely, but I'm open to them. But the stark choice, which was the whole point of my post, is still between accidental—regardless of how many different types of accidents there can be--and intentional. And to repeat what I said to Blutto, very few people--including you, I take it--are going to buy the notion that the U.S. was behind this strike.

I agree about the accidental, but not sure what you consider most probable...the ukrainians shooting a sam ?

@john, it seems you, unlike most, have carefully read both sides of the evidence.

 

[ScienceIsCool]

I agree about the accidental, but not sure what you consider most probable...the ukrainians shooting a sam ?

@john, it seems you, unlike most, have carefully read both sides of the evidence.

I'd have to disagree with the accidental bit. The speed at which (dis?)information came forward and American politicians started spouting the same talking points made some things look a bit scripted. Things like the bogus video of a TELAR with a missing SA-11 (seriously, a guy just happened to be hiding by a roadside filming cars going past, just as a perfectly framed and damning glimpse of a missing SAM went by?) was primed and ready to go. Recorded phone call? Ready to go. Suspicious tweets. Got 'em.

This makes me think that whoever is guilty, a number of actors had prior knowledge that an incident with an SA-11 was about to happen. And they were ready to capitalize on it.

John Swanson

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Seems like the US is preparing to publicize intelligence showing/indicating the rebels responsibility.

It will be interesting to see what they put out there. I would love it if they decided to release something with a higher resolution than civilian satellites are allowed to.

Anyway, I expect new conspiracy theories etc to keep the true believers in Russia's innocence/righteousness, still believing.

Common sense tells us that Russia did not order to shot (or shot themselves) that airplane down. That would do them zilch favours.
So if the plane was shot down it was either by the Ukrains or freedom fighters by accident.

And whatever US intellency brings out is useless. Once a liar, always one. They lied in front of UN about mass destruction weapons found in Iraq to have a reason to invade and destroy that country. Such psychos are willing to do anything if it helps them. Remember that.

 

[python]

Common sense tells us that Russia did not order to shot (or shot themselves) that airplane down. That would do them zilch favours.
So if the plane was shot down it was either by the Ukrains or freedom fighters by accident.

And whatever US intellency brings out is useless. Once a liar, always one. They lied in front of UN about mass destruction weapons found in Iraq to have a reason to invade and destroy that country. Such psychos are willing to do anything if it helps them. Remember that.

I think you are slightly ahead of the events we still need more info about...take my posting record for what it is - a consistent sceptic of the us policies, but we are too early in the game...the russians provided a bunch of data but stopped short of pinpointing the cause, rather challenging the us to release more, tomorrow they may, the russians will take it from there..and so on. One thing I am reasonably sure is that they have a better surveillance radar coverage of the area, thus they will gradually release more depending on what the americans do...it is the information war and at the same time a drive not to expose own capability ...

 

[Semper Fidelis]

I saw this earlier, and have been mulling over for hours just how vociferously I want to respond. I intend/hope to keep this short.

Just because you are an extreme anti-capitalist, anti-globalist, anti-European and anti-American (in politics, not sports!) does not mean that you are required to check your brains and your 'gesund Verstand' at the door, and buy into every batsh!t insane conspiracy floated by Mother Russia and assorted western conspiracy freaks.

Every one of these supposed false flag scenarios is too ridiculous for words. We no longer live in the Gulf of Tonkin world, where a US government could get away with complete bullsh!t because nobody knew any better, or couldn't prove the contrary.

Evidence will emerge from satellite surveillance - which you will probably choose to disbelieve - that will convince any rational person that the rabble masquerading as 'freedom fighters' was responsible for this tragic outrage.

They denied all weekend having the black boxes - today Vlad said they should be produced, and hey presto, amid outrageous, preening, self-aggrandizing pomp and propaganda, they were handed over this evening.

Only today, after the public statement that Vlad chose not to make any sooner, have the glorious 'freedom fighters' finally let the bodies go. The behavior of these rebels has been an utter disgrace to basic, common humanity. Vlad's attitude has been a shameful disgrace too. It is totally beyond me how anyone can stand up and defend either of them.

Accepting that this trigger happy rabble caused this disaster, and then has been lying, and obfuscating, and stalling ever since, does not mean one 'supports' Kiev. Believing that Kiev would not possibly have anything to gain by having any part in this tragedy, does not mean one finds the Kiev regime less than odious. Reactions to this disaster are not about taking sides. For honest people, this event stands on its own as a watershed incident in post war European history. Will Putin's ego lead to ever increasing Russian isolation from its traditional main focus? Possibly, it will depend on how Vlad reacts. Will he provide the guilty parties for prosecution? It's likely to be some time before BRICS will in any way be a suitable 'substitute' for Europe. It will never be a substitute for London, which houses most of Russia's stolen wealth.

Sorry, this was the short version.

I thought that was strange with respect to the "colonel" rebels having the flight data recorders & cockpit voice recorders and then handing them over. Why would they come in after the crash and take the FDR & CVR in the first place? Where they trying to cover themselves? BTW amster...clear out your PM inbox. I tried to send you some info but says your full.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Common sense tells us that Russia did not order to shot (or shot themselves) that airplane down. That would do them zilch favours.
So if the plane was shot down it was either by the Ukrains or freedom fighters by accident.

And whatever US intellency brings out is useless. Once a liar, always one. They lied in front of UN about mass destruction weapons found in Iraq to have a reason to invade and destroy that country. Such psychos are willing to do anything if it helps them. Remember that.

Well they (Russian Government) have done something like that in the past. Not that the current Government is even close to the 1983 version.

 

[Merckx index]

The best conclusion on the very sparse information is that it was intentional and that it was perpetrated by Ukranian forces. There's nothing to suggest that the intended target was a civilian airliner. Nor is there any evidence who might have ordered this event to occur.

If the airliner was not the intended target, then it was accidental, not intentional. By accidental, I of course don’t mean that someone accidentally pushed a button and a missile took off. I mean that someone was intentionally trying to hit a plane and by accident—whether misidentification or the missile going off course—hit the wrong plane.

But despite your disclaimer at the end, you seem to think the evidence does support that the airliner was the intended target.

The infamous video on YouTube of a TELAR driving along a road with a missing SA-11 (BuK M1) …suggests prior knowledge that an event with SA-11's would take place.

If they had prior knowledge, and felt they had to manufacture information that would put the blame on someone else (and apparently weren’t smart enough to notice that the phoniness of the picture could easily be seen), doesn’t that imply that the airliner was the intended target? Surely they wouldn’t go to this trouble to try to put the blame on the rebels for shooting down a Russian plane? Even assuming they knew this far in advance there was going to be a Russian plane to shoot down?

The number of Kupol radars (necessary for tracking and targeting data) active spiked from 2-3 per day to a hugely increased 9 on the 17th and 18th…You'd need substantially more if you wanted to track an airliner over a reasonably sized area for a time sufficient to track and intercept with a BuK.

I think you’re implying, again, that they knew in advance a target was coming. Again, doesn’t that suggest they were targeting the commercial airliner? If not, what?

It might be useful to take a look at the evidence and where it is coming from. Forget the rhetoric and posturing. Look at the actions.

I think you’re being selective here. You don’t mention the rebel leader’s boast that he shot down a plane, e.g. Why don’t they release all the communications the separatists had in the aftermath of the crash? Of course they won’t do that, because it might compromise some of their strategy/secrets. But the same is true wrt the U.S releasing satellite evidence. America doesn’t want the Russians to know any more about their spy capabilities than necessary.

As far as the Russians go, do you really think they have released all the satellite and other data they have? A Russian general correctly pointed out that the U.S. has not released data in support of their contention that the missile was definitely fired from an area held by rebels. But if that is not the case, the Russians probably have satellite data to disprove that. Why haven’t they released those data?

The black boxes were eventually turned over, but there certainly would have been time to tamper with them, if they had wanted to. More to the point, though, they are very unlikely to offer much help. At best, they might rule out an air-to-air missile, but probably they can’t shed much light on who fired a SAM. They might help pinpoint the location of the plane when it was hit, but my understanding is that this has pretty much been established already.

Common sense tells us that Russia did not order to shot (or shot themselves) that airplane down. That would do them zilch favours.
So if the plane was shot down it was either by the Ukrains or freedom fighters by accident.

Of course. What I’ve been saying all along. But this admission of yours contrasts with an earlier post in which you say the important question is cui bono. If it was an accident, cui bono is irrelevant to determining the cause of the crash. If you want to speculate on how the U.S., having been handed this unexpected “gift”, will go on to use it, fine, but that’s a different issue, and ought to be clearly distinguished from the blame game. The author of that linked article did not do this.

One thing I am reasonably sure is that they have a better surveillance radar coverage of the area, thus they will gradually release more depending on what the americans do...it is the information war and at the same time a drive not to expose own capability ...

I agree. Which is why I assume the U.S. has not been more forthcoming with their satellite data. I’ll admit I’m upset, if not surprised, that the American media have not been pushing the government to do this.

Well they (Russian Government) have done something like that in the past. Not that the current Government is even close to the 1983 version.

Yes, and to be fair, so has the U.S. And to be fairer still, all of the suspects here are on territory they consider to be their homeland, which they are trying to defend. When the U.S. shot down that Iranian airliner, they were on the other side of the globe, meddling, as usual, in someone else's affairs.

 

[python]

I thought that was strange with respect to the "colonel" rebels having the flight data recorders & cockpit voice recorders and then handing them over. Why would they come in after the crash and take the FDR & CVR in the first place? Where they trying to cover themselves? BTW amster...clear out your PM inbox. I tried to send you some info but says your full.

why shouldn't they un the middle of the conflict zone they controlled ? Or you think they should have waited for a local farmer to pick it up and then being accused of hiding it ? The boxes are now in the hands of those who will send them to london where it will be very easy if they were temperred with. Sounds like a no brainer if I was a former marine...

 

[Semper Fidelis]

why shouldn't they un the middle of the conflict zone they controlled ? Or you think they should have waited for a local farmer to pick it up and then being accused of hiding it ? The boxes are now in the hands of those who will send them to london where it will be very easy if they were temperred with. Sounds like a no brainer if I was a former marine...

Hey have you not heard Once a Marine always a Marine?

True about the recorders. I guess he who controls the territory would logically take possession of the recorders. Then again how would these drunken colonel rebels or Farmers know what to look for?

 

[Semper Fidelis]

If the airliner was not the intended target, then it was accidental, not intentional. By accidental, I of course don’t mean that someone accidentally pushed a button and a missile took off. I mean that someone was intentionally trying to hit a plane and by accident—whether misidentification or the missile going off course—hit the wrong plane.

But despite your disclaimer at the end, you seem to think the evidence does support that the airliner was the intended target.



If they had prior knowledge, and felt they had to manufacture information that would put the blame on someone else (and apparently weren’t smart enough to notice that the phoniness of the picture could easily be seen), doesn’t that imply that the airliner was the intended target? Surely they wouldn’t go to this trouble to try to put the blame on the rebels for shooting down a Russian plane? Even assuming they knew this far in advance there was going to be a Russian plane to shoot down?



I think you’re implying, again, that they knew in advance a target was coming. Again, doesn’t that suggest they were targeting the commercial airliner? If not, what?



I think you’re being selective here. You don’t mention the rebel leader’s boast that he shot down a plane, e.g. Why don’t they release all the communications the separatists had in the aftermath of the crash? Of course they won’t do that, because it might compromise some of their strategy/secrets. But the same is true wrt the U.S releasing satellite evidence. America doesn’t want the Russians to know any more about their spy capabilities than necessary.

As far as the Russians go, do you really think they have released all the satellite and other data they have? A Russian general correctly pointed out that the U.S. has not released data in support of their contention that the missile was definitely fired from an area held by rebels. But if that is not the case, the Russians probably have satellite data to disprove that. Why haven’t they released those data?

The black boxes were eventually turned over, but there certainly would have been time to tamper with them, if they had wanted to. More to the point, though, they are very unlikely to offer much help. At best, they might rule out an air-to-air missile, but probably they can’t shed much light on who fired a SAM. They might help pinpoint the location of the plane when it was hit, but my understanding is that this has pretty much been established already.



Of course. What I’ve been saying all along. But this admission of yours contrasts with an earlier post in which you say the important question is cui bono. If it was an accident, cui bono is irrelevant to determining the cause of the crash. If you want to speculate on how the U.S., having been handed this unexpected “gift”, will go on to use it, fine, but that’s a different issue, and ought to be clearly distinguished from the blame game. The author of that linked article did not do this.



I agree. Which is why I assume the U.S. has not been more forthcoming with their satellite data. I’ll admit I’m upset, if not surprised, that the American media have not been pushing the government to do this.



Yes, and to be fair, so has the U.S. And to be fairer still, all of the suspects here are on territory they consider to be their homeland, which they are trying to defend. When the U.S. shot down that Iranian airliner, they were on the other side of the globe, meddling, as usual, in someone else's affairs.

Also the Korean airliner was around 200 miles off course IN soviet airspace for the 2nd or 3rd time during the flight and also .....just so happens on that very day the Soviets were going to test a missile and guess who had a spy plane in and around that area???

So I guess president Obama did have that plane shot down by Kiev.

 

[ScienceIsCool]

To Merckx Index:

Yeah, based on the available facts and ensuing propaganda storm, I'm starting to believe that it was a deliberate act set up by actors sympathetic with the Kiev regime. Just look at CNN's latest. They have a bogus missile track (a nifty graphic, but no substantiating facts) having the missile launched from foreward of the aircraft trajectory from east of the crash site (i.e., the plane was coming right at them). It's so completely bogus on its face.

- Either the plane entered the missile's radar cup (50 km range), was acquired and the missile launched in mere moments, or:

- The rebels had radar placements far west of their controlled territory.

Neither is remotely plausible.

John Swanson

 

[python]

Just in, an important political backpedalling by the us...Sorry the terrible grammar as im posting from my mobile.

My rss feed from the guardian just reported that america does not see a direct involvement into the shotdown by russia and that they connsider an ACCIDENTAL EVENT...

This is a major backpedalling by obama...
Please allow me to speculate..
One, obama is offering vlad a compromise against the escalation.
Two, the cia figured they have been outdone by the russian local surveillance and wish to limit the embarresment
Three, a 3d party, like germany, told the russians and the americans cut the shyte out...or else