World Politics

[blutto]

....ok now we now have shades of KAL 007....

"Report: Ukrainian Fighter Jets Hid Behind Passenger Plane, Pulled Away and Dropped Bombs, and Then Hid Behind Plane Once Again

Posted on July 23, 2014 by WashingtonsBlog


Is THIS Why the Plane Was Shot Down? "

...from... http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2014...lled-away-dropped-bombs-hid-behind-plane.html

...does this maybe explain connection the "accident" scenario announced yesterday and the Russian claims about a SU25 in the immediate vicinity and the kinda confusing bit in the story posted by the esteemed Mr Hammer about the airplane attacks...?

"Khodakovsky blamed the Kiev authorities for provoking what may have been the missile strike that destroyed the doomed airliner, saying Kiev had deliberately launched air strikes in the area, knowing the missiles were in place."

...was this the Kiev regime's mousetrap to push the US to escalate a la Syria ?...and if so, did, as mentioned up thread by SC, people in the West know about this in advance so they could get maximum impact with their anti- Russia rhetoric ( not to mention other "evidence" which seemed to appear magically....example of such "evidence" here.....

http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2014...-responsibility-plane-shootdown-debunked.html

...if this article is on the level pretty conclusive proof someone is cooking the books ain't it....and Kerry actually used this on national teevee....Mr Swift Boat morphing into Mr Mi Lai...)

Cheers

 

[python]

No, I don't consider the mousetrap scenario with those Ukrainian attack/fighter planes probable. Don't get me wrong, the current Kiev zealots are more than capable to create a provocation... Their behavior during the natural gas supply negotiations was nothing but a provocation inspired by the US... But when it comes to the military, to the complicated air maneuvers requiring precise coordination with the US, one could hardly find a more inapt partner... The Americans must have known this.

The Long story short, whilst i have been branded by the likes of torebear and amster a conspirasist and a Ukraine hater, i am discounting that story above posted by blutto.

 

[ferryman]

I'd like to say a huge thank you to much maligned CNN International for bringing today's events in Holland to the world, and for their focus on the families. CNN has continued live coverage after other international broadcasters stopped. They will win some award for their coverage today, and they will deserve it.

When the planes landed, the honor guard and pall bearers marched onto the tarmac, the King and Queen, together with domestic and foreign dignitaries all stood in silence, I had live coverage on 11 channels - seven domestic and four international. Once the procession of 40 hearses set off towards Hilversum, only one Dutch public station and three commercial ones continued following the cortege....and CNN Int.

I got to thinking about the most memorable, most moving moments of live tv I have ever witnessed. What I have seen today has been as deeply moving for me as Mandela's release from prison, 9/11, and Mandela's funeral.

As far as Holland is concerned, none of us have ever witnessed anything like the astonishing number of people lining the route - more even than I remember when the Dutch football team won Euro 88 - every motorway overpass has been full of people, some crying, some throwing flowers onto the cortege, some applauding. Traffic in the opposite direction slowed and stopped to watch. The tv coverage has been absolutely awesome, deeply moving, and utterly respectful. It has been a unique few hours, I'm shattered and emotionally drained. How typical of the Dutch, that the public service, police, and media, vehicles following behind the cortege stopped at every overpass to pick up the flowers lying on the road so that cars wouldn't crush them.

I'm pleased to say that the tragedy was very well talked about and respected with silence in the opening of the Commonwealth Games tonight. I was also very touched as I walked past the Dutch Consulant office in Edinburgh today and saw that more than a few posey of flowers had been attached to the Gate leading down to it.

 

[blutto]

But when it comes to the military, to the complicated air maneuvers requiring precise coordination with the US, one could hardly find a more inapt partner... The Americans must have known this.

....couple of things the maneuvers weren't particularly complicated and had apparently been used several times in the past....and given that air traffic control in Kiev sent something like 55 planes into the area it was only a matter of time until **** hit the fan and they would continued as long as it was required...and as the rebel leader said they, for some "mysterious" reason, started bombing the area where the BUK was....

...as for the low grade help the US has "hired" in The Ukraine, well, I don't know if you've noticed but that is what they always do ( they always seem to gravitate to the scummiest, stupidest, most corrupt people available ) and this is a major reason why their foreign policy has been one long string of disasters and embarrassments ....just think of the blood thirsty clowns doing their dirty work in Syria....their friends that facilitated Iraq...al Qaeda....

....maybe the ineptitude of the Kiev regime was below even the low standard the US usually plays with and realizing this they decided on Operation Most Embarrassing Backpedal of All Time....think back to the Russian press conference where the idea of a shadowing SU25 was pushed...at first it seemed weird that they would bring this up because as Torebear correctly stated that plane was not a threat to MH 17 but why on earth was it in the picture...

....but then you have to understand that the SU25 is a plane designed for ground support and it has been used to bomb rebel positions....it would for the rebels be a real danger that should if possible be destroyed....so the SU25 could have been the bait that there to tag MH 17....and when the Russians brought this up maybe the Americans knew the Russian knew and saw their jig was up and immediately started Operation Backpedal....because Operation Backpedal makes even less sense than anything in this crazy situation in and of itself but it is the only thing that could be the result of some rational decision...like we are cooked lets save face like right now before we look real stupid ( and besides our spooks are sick of being the fall guy and they are already talking off the books.. )...

....yes this is incredibly convoluted and doesn't have simplicity of just saying Vlad is evil and leaving at that....but dealing with idiots, such as the Kiev regime, usually is convoluted...

Cheers

 

[theyoungest]

I'd like to say a huge thank you to much maligned CNN International for bringing today's events in Holland to the world, and for their focus on the families. CNN has continued live coverage after other international broadcasters stopped. They will win some award for their coverage today, and they will deserve it.

When the planes landed, the honor guard and pall bearers marched onto the tarmac, the King and Queen, together with domestic and foreign dignitaries all stood in silence, I had live coverage on 11 channels - seven domestic and four international. Once the procession of 40 hearses set off towards Hilversum, only one Dutch public station and three commercial ones continued following the cortege....and CNN Int.

I got to thinking about the most memorable, most moving moments of live tv I have ever witnessed. What I have seen today has been as deeply moving for me as Mandela's release from prison, 9/11, and Mandela's funeral.

As far as Holland is concerned, none of us have ever witnessed anything like the astonishing number of people lining the route - more even than I remember when the Dutch football team won Euro 88 - every motorway overpass has been full of people, some crying, some throwing flowers onto the cortege, some applauding. Traffic in the opposite direction slowed and stopped to watch. The tv coverage has been absolutely awesome, deeply moving, and utterly respectful. It has been a unique few hours, I'm shattered and emotionally drained. How typical of the Dutch, that the public service, police, and media, vehicles following behind the cortege stopped at every overpass to pick up the flowers lying on the road so that cars wouldn't crush them.

Yes, it was extraordinary, and the CNN coverage was really good, better than the Dutch tv actually. Anderson Cooper seemingly linked it to his personal grief about his brother, he was at a loss for words sometimes.

Meanwhile, all some other foreign media are picking up on is some moron mayor saying that Putin's daughter should be deported. What an idiot Pieter Broertjes is, we have the daughter of a war criminal as our queen, should we deport her as well? I have heard no one else in the Netherlands say this, but of course the headlines are "Dutch furious about Putin's daughter living in Holland".

 

[Arnout]

Damn another plane disappeared. Air Algerie jet disappeared from radar near the capital of Burkina Faso and hasn't resurfaced yet. 110 pax and 6 crew.

When it rains it pours.

 

[blutto]

No, I don't consider the mousetrap scenario with those Ukrainian attack/fighter planes probable. Don't get me wrong, the current Kiev zealots are more than capable to create a provocation... Their behavior during the natural gas supply negotiations was nothing but a provocation inspired by the US... But when it comes to the military, to the complicated air maneuvers requiring precise coordination with the US, one could hardly find a more inapt partner... The Americans must have known this.

The Long story short, whilst i have been branded by the likes of torebear and amster a conspirasist and a Ukraine hater, i am discounting that story above posted by blutto.

...of course they knew of the gross ineptitude of the Kiev regime so don't let that cloud your thinking here...in point of fact if you look back at US foreign policy initiatives since time immemorial you will notice they gravitate to the scummiest, stupidest, most corrupt people available ( with admittedly some very rare exceptions)....it helps explain why US foreign policy has been such a long string of disasters...

....I mean look at the blood thirsty clowns they hired for their Syrian adventure, the greedy two-faced crooks that were the core native element of their Iraq disaster, and the corrupt drug dealers they allied with in Afghanistan ( these people are all world class scum)...and then there is the neocon crowd in Washington whose credo seems to be go stupid or go home...

....and btw that military maneuver was not that difficult and it had been done several times before....it was standard operating procedure for heaven's sake...

...that being said it is one of the few things that could possibly explain the unleashing of Operation Greatest Backpedal of All Time and the MH 17 incident being re-labelled as a whooopsie....the Russians mention the SU25 connection and the US goes into full retreat, like wtf !?!?....

Cheers

 

[blutto]

....speaking of recent US hires gone bad here is a swell example...

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ISIS orders female genital mutilation in Iraq

he al-Qaeda-Inspired Islamic State of Iraq and Syria (ISIS) has ordered all girls and women in and around Iraq's northern city of Mosul to undergo female genital mutilation, the United Nations said on Thursday.

The "fatwa" issued by the Sunni Muslim fighters would potentially affect 4 million women and girls, U.N. resident and humanitarian coordinator in Iraq Jacqueline Badcock told reporters in Geneva by videolink from Arbil.

"This is something very new for Iraq, particularly in this area, and is of grave concern and does need to be addressed," she said.

"This is not the will of Iraqi people, or the women of Iraq in these vulnerable areas covered by the terrorists," she added.

http://english.alarabiya.net/en/New...-order-female-genital-mutilation-in-Iraq.html

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cheers

 

[Amsterhammer]

So, what do the Ukraine experts here think about the collapse of the coalition, and resignation of Yatsenyuk? Odd timing.

 

[python]

...of course they knew of the gross ineptitude of the Kiev regime so don't let that cloud your thinking here...in point of fact if you look back at US foreign policy initiatives since time immemorial you will notice they gravitate to the scummiest, stupidest, most corrupt people available ( with admittedly some very rare exceptions)....it helps explain why US foreign policy has been such a long string of disasters...

....I mean look at the blood thirsty clowns they hired for their Syrian adventure, the greedy two-faced crooks that were the core native element of their Iraq disaster, and the corrupt drug dealers they allied with in Afghanistan ( these people are all world class scum)...and then there is the neocon crowd in Washington whose credo seems to be go stupid or go home...

....and btw that military maneuver was not that difficult and it had been done several times before....it was standard operating procedure for heaven's sake...

...that being said it is one of the few things that could possibly explain the unleashing of Operation Greatest Backpedal of All Time and the MH 17 incident being re-labelled as a whooopsie....the Russians mention the SU25 connection and the US goes into full retreat, like wtf !?!?....

Cheers

curiously, i just finished reading one analysis (by an author who claims working with the very systems, but 25 yo). his article arrived at the same conclusion, but for different reasons, as yours and SC ideas...it starts with a broad and impressive overview of both the civilian and military air traffic control systems - how they are set up and integrate, the type of information they receive and transmit, the various types of radar they operate etc. in one word, his technical competence was obvious and while it is not difficult to impress me, an amateur in these matters, being a trained scientist i do smell garbage when sold as knowledge...

so, he mentioned that the ukrainian security services at all levels are totally penetrated by the russian sympathizers or spies. it would be a solid bet that had the americans designed the provocation together with their uki puppets, putin would know it before poroshenko did... despite that, he concludes it was the ukrainians deliberately shooting the airliner and that the americans at least knew about that in advance. he speculates, the reason the russians are quiet yet, is because they keep the bomb in the back pocket for the later stages in the information war.

i hear you and him but it is exceedingly difficult for me to imagine such level of cynicism in any government of a civilized nation...if it did happen, it is likely an intelligence inner job outside the political leadership.

 

[Amsterhammer]

And what do those who call these rebel mercenaries, "freedom fighters" think about their kidnapping of journalists? Or about the fact that they denied having the black boxes all weekend, then suddenly produced them after Vlad spoke up?

Unless you happen to have a personal connection to E. Ukraine, I just can't see how any honest, moral person, whatever their personal ideology may be, can support this Russian inspired, supported, armed, largely mercenary, group of thugs.

 

[RetroActive]

So, what do the Ukraine experts here think about the collapse of the coalition, and resignation of Yatsenyuk? Odd timing.

Yeah, it's just shocking that a gov't coalition fell apart under these circumstances. IMF austerity doesn't work? Who knew that starving granny was a bad idea? Neo-Nazis in government positions is a bad idea - do tell. Conducting ethnic cleansing is ugly business? What? Passenger planes being shot down (however it happened) isn't an easy sell? wow. Screwing around with gas payments, and your largest trading partner, might not be the best course of action - no way. Who could have guessed this wouldn't work out?

Ukraine may need new bailout
http://money.cnn.com/2014/07/18/news/economy/ukraine-economy-rescue/

Those rebels should just fold up shop and flee.
http://en.ria.ru/photolents/2014070...-out-Houses-of-Kramatorsk-and-Luganskaya.html

Oh, btw...
Reuters Debunked: Khodakovsky Denies Interview Aspects
http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.ca/2014/07/reuters-debunked-khodakovsky-denies.html

 

[python]

Yeah, it's just shocking that a gov't coalition fell apart under these circumstances. IMF austerity doesn't work? Who knew that starving granny was a bad idea? Neo-Nazis in government positions is a bad idea - do tell. Conducting ethnic cleansing is ugly business? What? Passenger planes being shot down (however it happened) isn't an easy sell? wow. Screwing around with gas payments, and your largest trading partner, might not be the best course of action - no way. Who could have guessed this wouldn't work out?

Ukraine may need new bailout
http://money.cnn.com/2014/07/18/news/economy/ukraine-economy-rescue/

Those rebels should just fold up shop and flee.
http://en.ria.ru/photolents/2014070...-out-Houses-of-Kramatorsk-and-Luganskaya.html

Oh, btw...
Reuters Debunked: Khodakovsky Denies Interview Aspects
http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.ca/2014/07/reuters-debunked-khodakovsky-denies.html

as you said, yats has not only (mis)managed the post-'revolutionary' chaos, he was a prominent member of the team that created the chaos in the 1st place.

i do have to admit though, i do have a measure of respect for his economic techno competence. he is simply a crappy politicians chosen from the other side of the pond... i never considered him an extreme right member (much less the neo-nazi or a fascist - the subjective terms- just like 'freedom fighter' for rebels - i try to stay away from).

all that said, i would not over interpret his resignation...he himself called his govt a kamikaze transition govt...thus his stepping down means the beginning of another political phase in ukraine...much more to the right of centre...in the same light one has to view the breaking down of the parliamentary ruling coalition and the expelling of the communists from the parliament. all deliberate steps to open the way for scheduling a new parliamentary election that would consolidate the rule of the right and extreme right. call them whatever term fits your vocabulary. i call it certainly less democratic and more anti-russian.

 

[RetroActive]

as you said, yats has not only (mis)managed the post-'revolutionary' chaos, he was a prominent member of the team that created the chaos in the 1st place.

i do have to admit though, i do have a measure of respect for his economic techno competence. he is simply a crappy politicians chosen from the other side of the pond... i never considered him an extreme right member (much less the neo-nazi or a fascist - the subjective terms- just like 'freedom fighter' for rebels - i try to stay away from).

all that said, i would not over interpret his resignation...he himself called his govt a kamikaze transition govt...thus his stepping down means the beginning of another political phase in ukraine...much more to the right of centre...in the same light one has to view the breaking down of the parliamentary ruling coalition and the expelling of the communists from the parliament. all deliberate steps to open the way for scheduling a new parliamentary election that would consolidate the rule of the right and extreme right. call them whatever term fits your vocabulary. i call it certainly less democratic and more anti-russian.

Yats is a western banker. There were certainly government ministers that are neo-nazis. It's a gong show.

If I was living in E. Ukraine I think I might resist what's going on and I frankly wouldn't care what you called me.

Proxy war - geopolitical ****storm, call it what you want. It's clearly aimed at Russia. Crazy, dangerous.

 

[blutto]

i hear you and him but it is exceedingly difficult for me to imagine such level of cynicism in any government of a civilized nation...if it did happen, it is likely an intelligence inner job outside the political leadership.

....you wouldn't have to spend too much time in The Ukraine to realize how corrupt and inbred the government apparatus is ( I have been unfortunate to see it in operation first hand )....and since the glorious revolution that system still is very much in place, though now its crowned by scumbags of simply a different stripe....it deserves all the cynicism one can muster and not implode...

Cheers

 

[Semper Fidelis]

....you wouldn't have to spend too much time in The Ukraine to realize how corrupt and inbred the government apparatus is ( I have been unfortunate to see it in operation first hand )....and since the glorious revolution that system still is very much in place, though now its crowned by scumbags of simply a different stripe....it deserves all the cynicism one can muster and not implode...

Cheers

What is needed in that area is a good Oprichnik to set things straight and get rid of the Neo Nazi's supported by the USA.

 

[ToreBear]

So, what do the Ukraine experts here think about the collapse of the coalition, and resignation of Yatsenyuk? Odd timing.

It could be to force new elections. The pro Russian element in the Rada is strong, but their support in the polls is now very low, so the pro Ukraine parties might see it in their interest to remove a disruptive force.

It's politics, so a large amount of conspiracy theories are likely to be created in order to further the Russian narrative in some way. We will have to see what Russia Today comes up with.

Hopefully they are more creative than Iluminati, aliens etc. I hate conspiracy theories, but some are more entertaining than others.

 

[blutto]

And what do those who call these rebel mercenaries, "freedom fighters" think about their kidnapping of journalists? Or about the fact that they denied having the black boxes all weekend, then suddenly produced them after Vlad spoke up?

Unless you happen to have a personal connection to E. Ukraine, I just can't see how any honest, moral person, whatever their personal ideology may be, can support this Russian inspired, supported, armed, largely mercenary, group of thugs.

....having an old familial connection to both Western and Central Ukraine and having personally experienced the level of animosity that forms a major part of the world view of the murderous fascist thugs who pushed thru the glorious revolution I think I may have a better understanding of the situation in The Ukraine than someone sitting in a easy chair in Holland ( you simply have no idea of the levels of white hot hate across political lines or religious lines or ethic lines that infects some factions in the Ukrainian culture ....)...

...and my view is that left to have their way the right wing element in The Ukraine would like nothing more than to wipe out the Russian speaking population of eastern Ukraine ( think Rwanda )...and while the anti-Kiev faction, like any ragtag group of fighters, may have in their ranks some rather unsavoury characters and may have done some unsavoury things, they are one of the few things preventing the fascists from realizing their dreams ( see the article from Retroactive ) ...and one thing that should be made very clear here is that Eastern Ukraine has for a very very very long time been populated by Russians and not Ukrainians ( it was not part of The Ukraine until a bureaucratic reshuffling of jurisdictions during the Soviet times....a situation that btw is very similar to the Crimean situation... ) and for The Ukraine to somehow claim it as their own reeks of self-serving crap....

...so go ahead and slag the anti-Kiev forces but be aware the people they are facing are much much worse...

.... all I pray for in this mess is that as many innocent civilians survive as possible and that The Ukraine can somehow right itself and prosper....

Cheers

 

[blutto]

What is needed in that area is a good Oprichnik to set things straight and get rid of the Neo Nazi's supported by the USA.

...that would be a good start ( especially the part about the USA...like haven't they messed up enough countries already...)...but only a start...though minus the Oprichnik element which is just more of the same old $h!t...

Cheers

 

[RetroActive]

What is needed in that area is a good Oprichnik to set things straight and get rid of the Neo Nazi's supported by the USA.

Obama orders Pentagon advisers to Ukraine to fend off Putin-backed rebels
U.S. to help Kiev bolster military as pressure mounts on Vladimir Putin
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news...to-ukraine-amid-crisis-wi/?page=all#pagebreak

...this usually works out well.

Attacks continue on Ukraine from Russian territory
http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukr...on-ukraine-from-russian-territory-357749.html

Better have a war with Russia then I guess.

 

[Jagartrott]

The crap going on in Gaza is sickening.
The world stands by idly. But of course, we're all selling our weapons to Israel and the US donates 3 billion a year in military help to them (good to see tax money well spent!).

 

[Semper Fidelis]

The crap going on in Gaza is sickening.
The world stands by idly. But of course, we're all selling our weapons to Israel and the US donates 3 billion a year in military help to them (good to see tax money well spent!).

I agree. They should be spending those billions elsewhere like ....Here in the USA. Same goes for the other endless foreign countries our tax money gets spent in.

 

[ToreBear]

The ruthlessness with which Israel punishes Gaza - however one assesses or judges the situation - is horrendous from any point of view. Even if one were cynically neutral, the promise of an escalation of Islamic fanaticism and the terrorism against the West it fuels, justifies the following question: Bibi Netanyahu what logical criteria guides your policy?

Short term:
Objective1: Stay in power
Objective2 Keep the Palestinians divided so he can say there is no one to talk to. Hence starting of Gaza war in order to split up the new unity government.


-Starting Gaza war did not work as planned. Objective2 failed and objective1 could come under threat due to the war not going as planned(like the last one).

Long term:
- Have a never ending peace process under which the settlement of the Westbank can continue. This in turn can continue the long term project of cleansing the area.
- Get Egypt to take control of Gaza.


Thats my short take on it.

 

[ToreBear]

The FAA allowing the resumption of flights to Tel Aviv makes me suspect political pressure.

 

[blutto]

....exceptional response from an exceptional nation....

"American exceptionalism strikes again. This time it manifested itself as the US being the only country on the United Nations Human Rights Council to vote against investigating the killing of civilians in Operation Protective Edge. The call to respect international legal restrictions on warfare and investigate whether any violations have taken place received a yea or abstention from every other country on the council. The resolution was presented by Ibrahim Khraishi, the ambassador of the Palestinian observer mission to the UN in Geneva.

The result of the resolution – which passed despite the US’ no vote – will be a UN probe into how Israel is using force in Gaza, particularly against civilians. Of the 732 Palestinians now reported killed from Operation Protective Edge an estimated 80% have been civilians. Navi Pillay, the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, told the council yesterday that Israel’s actions could be war crimes.


The 47-member council adopted the investigation under a draft resolution after a request by Palestine, which has UN observer status: 29 states voted in favour of the investigation. 17 abstained, including many EU states. 1 voted against – the US.

The Israeli prime minister’s office said in a statement that the decision was a “travesty”, adding that Israel had “gone to unprecedented lengths to keep Palestinian civilians out of harm’s way”.


If the current bloodbath is a result of unprecedented attempts to avoid civilian casualties what would less restrained warfare be – a nuclear strike?

<snip>

Link: http://news.firedoglake.com/2014/07...resolution-against-killing-civilians-in-gaza/ "

....did notice that Russia, led by that evil arch-villain, voted with the rest of the non-exceptional mob......gawd if this doesn't prove beyond any doubt that he is a monster I really don't know what will....as opposed to say, Ariel Sharon , dear friend of exceptionalism and freedom and democracy and...

"I vow that I'll burn every Palestinian child (that) will be born in this area.

I vow that if I was just an Israeli civilian and I met a Palestinian I would burn him and I would make him suffer before killing him.

I wanted to encourage my soldiers by raping Arabic girls as the Palestinian women is a slave for Jews, and we do whatever we want to her and nobody tells us what we shall do but we tell others what they shall do."

-- Ariel Sharon "

...and apparently rape and burning people alive...what a sweet man...definitely not a evil arch villain....


Cheers