World Politics

[Jagartrott]

Re:

2. to illustrate my point below are 2 the guardian articles that (depending on where you stand) expose the simplistic 'they against us attitudes' or 'honestly speaking...'

From The Guardian:
"Mutko, who was on the pitch after the final whistlewaving at Russian fans close to where the clashes were taking place, initially said the trouble had been exaggerated, and even claimed “there was no clash ... in fact everything is fine here”." A day later, he then had to back-track, because everybody had seen what had happened.

From The Independent, quoting from Vesti:
“Two hundred and fifty Russian fans repulsed an attack by several thousand English and forced them to flee,” state news service Vesti reported. “English fans started the fight by attacking our fans, but 250 Russians from different corners of our country did not flinch and repulsed the attack of the heavily drunken islanders.”
Lawrence Nunez, the region's police commissioner, said approximately 300 Russian and 300 English fans who were “very determined” took part in the clashes, but that “police presence allowed us to intervene systematically.”

lol

 

[Brullnux]

Re:

clearly, i lack their personal 'read list' to doubt a uk-based poster who engaged the word 'honestly' or who seems unhappy with another country's govt reaction to the drunk fans.

all i can do is to expose my own sources for my reactions and , logically, my posts on the issue at hand. here goes:

1. b/c i dont speak the language of 'their' gov't, i use other languages, including english, to seek out a balanced info. the english language guardian is one of the balanced sources (note, no quotations) i use.

2. to illustrate my point below are 2 the guardian articles that (depending on where you stand) expose the simplistic 'they against us attitudes' or 'honestly speaking...'

3 .Britain's Euro 2016 police chief lambasts 'tooled up' Russian fans
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2016/jun/12/britains-euro-2016-police-chief-lambasts-tooled-up-russian-fans

clearly, that's a 'balanced british reaction' brullnux missed b/c his honest reading list did not reach that far.

4. then the guardian to its credit had this:
Russian minister says violent fans brought shame on country
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2016/jun/12/russian-minister-admits-violent-fans-brought-shame-on-country

i guess the trotter would dismiss the info b/c 'they' are the dark side.

The Guardian is a lot of my readlist. But not that many of the articles, even in the paper edition, have been particularly anti-Russia, maybe starting a one or two days ago, when they ran out of things to say about Engish fans. And when there is one like you find it is balanced with another one. That's quite fair in my eyes, no? We have even had whole essays on the history of English yobs.It's hard to deny that both sides have had a part in this, one is adrinking at 9am, the others are racist ultras , see Hulk at any away game at CSKA, so it's fair to blame both sides. Only one article has properly annoyed me, and that was about how the Russian media reported it, which was bs IMO. Others have been reports.

 

[CheckMyPecs]

They've spotted the Egyptair wreckage.

 

[python]

the messianic torch (read - torture) of liberty, democracy and human rights is shining high and bright...

CIA medical staff gave specifications on how to torture post-9/11 detainees

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/jun/15/cia-torture-program-september-11-medical-staff-instructions-details

i read thru about 1/2 of the article and got totally disgusted when it went into the 'recommended rectal procedures'. then a thought to myself of how many little terrorists got bread by the genuine cia document after it got read by mullahs, ayatollahs and the likes to their parishioners...

the isis and al qaeida recruiters dont even need to bother.

 

[blutto]

Re:

the messianic torch (read - torture) of liberty, democracy and human rights is shining high and bright...

CIA medical staff gave specifications on how to torture post-9/11 detainees

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/jun/15/cia-torture-program-september-11-medical-staff-instructions-details

i read thru about 1/2 of the article and got totally disgusted when it went into the 'recommended rectal procedures'. then a thought to myself of how many little terrorists got bread by the genuine cia document after it got read by mullahs, ayatollahs and the likes to their parishioners...

the isis and al qaeida recruiters dont even need to bother.

...and then for good measure thoroughly destroy a few countries for mere political or economic gain, deny or thwart any moves to more modern forms of government and society, and then went things go pear-shaped and the "natives" actually have the nerve to question your good works and intentions demonize the population and their culture/religion....

....I mean really, what could go wrong...

...frankly, given the crap the West, either directly, or thru their surrogates have laid on the Middle East, and if that culture/religion was 1/100th as evil and war-like as the advertising claims, the West would be up to it's arm pits in wave after wave of terrorist attacks....thankfully that isn't the case and we can continue to live fairly normal lives...and yeah a plane gets lost every once in a while but air travel is way still safer than your commute to work and besides it makes for spectacular news and ultimately its good for business ...win win as Bush the Smarter would say...

Cheers

 

[blutto]

....and as if by magic there appears an article to neatly expand on some of the points I made in my last post...

Quite revealingly, the self-proclaimed crusader against genocide, Samantha Power, was awarded the 2016 Henry A. Kissinger Prize in Berlin. That Power would be awarded a prize named after one of the world’s great génocidaires, and that she would happily accept it, proves what many of us have believed all along – that she is more the clever apologist for U.S. crimes than a bona fide human rights advocate.

The problem with Power all along has been that her refusal to acknowledge the incontrovertible fact that the U.S., as exemplified by such figures as Henry Kissinger himself, is in reality the world leader in war crimes commission, and an active facilitator of genocide. The U.S. is not, as Power has claimed throughout her career, a force for halting such evils. However, Power has done an impressive job in advancing this myth, and in the process in perpetuating the false belief that the world would be better off if only the U.S. were more active militarily throughout the world. In so doing, Power, who is lauded as some great human rights advocate, probably does more than any other public figure to harm the cause of global human rights.

In short, Power is really the perfect exemplar of U.S. foreign policy. She is a hypocrite and a phony idealist who believes her own lies about the role of the U.S., and even herself, in the world, and who does a great job of convincing the public that these lies are truth. But sadly — like Kissinger himself who will never be able to wash the blood of the Vietnamese, Cambodians, Laotians, Chileans, Argentines and East Timorese off his hands, but who nonetheless is treated as an elder statesman — Power will most likely never be brought to account. She will continue to live out her days watching Boston Red Sox games and hanging out with the rich and powerful, while other, lesser criminals are sent to The Hague. Regrettably, this is what passes for human rights these days . . . .

http://www.counterpunch.org/2016/06/16/samantha-power-henry-kissinger-imperial-delusions/

Cheers

 

[blutto]

Re: Re:

the messianic torch (read - torture) of liberty, democracy and human rights is shining high and bright...

CIA medical staff gave specifications on how to torture post-9/11 detainees

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/jun/15/cia-torture-program-september-11-medical-staff-instructions-details

i read thru about 1/2 of the article and got totally disgusted when it went into the 'recommended rectal procedures'. then a thought to myself of how many little terrorists got bread by the genuine cia document after it got read by mullahs, ayatollahs and the likes to their parishioners...

the isis and al qaeida recruiters dont even need to bother.

...and then for good measure thoroughly destroy a few countries for mere political or economic gain, deny or thwart any moves to more modern forms of government and society, and then went things go pear-shaped and the "natives" actually have the nerve to question your good works and intentions demonize the population and their culture/religion....

....I mean really, what could go wrong...

...frankly, given the crap the West, either directly, or thru their surrogates have laid on the Middle East, and if that culture/religion was 1/100th as evil and war-like as the advertising claims, the West would be up to it's arm pits in wave after wave of terrorist attacks....thankfully that isn't the case and we can continue to live fairly normal lives...and yeah a plane gets lost every once in a while but air travel is way still safer than your commute to work and besides it makes for spectacular news and ultimately its good for business ...win win as Bush the Smarter would say...

Cheers

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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....well isn't this interesting...

by Tyler Durden - Jun 17, 2016 6:37 PM

Confirming once again that the entire US Middle-East campaign over the past 4 years has been one ongoing plan to destabilize and eliminate Syria's president Bashar al-Assad from power - certainly including the involvement of ISIS which as we reported a year ago was "created" and facilitated by the Pentagon as a tool to overthrow Assad, an analysis which yesterday gained renewed prominence - overnight the WSJ reported that dozens of State Department officials this week protested against U.S. policy in Syria, signing an internal document that calls for "targeted military strikes against the Damascus government and urging regime change as the only way to defeat Islamic State."

In other words, over 50 top "diplomats" are urging to eliminate Assad in order to "defeat ISIS", the same ISIS which top US "diplomats" had unleashed previously in order to... eliminate Assad.

While one can understand the US state department's relentless eagneress to create yet another failed state led by a US puppet ruler, one wonders if at least the boilerplate justification could not have used some more fine tuning.

Amusingly, the whole thing is wrapped in a narrative that the State Department is ready and willing to "mutiny" against Obama's pacifism, because you see it was Obama who has been so successful in extricating and removing US troops from harm's way in both the middle east and Afghanistan. Oh wait...

Here are the full details from he WSJ:

The “dissent channel cable” was signed by 51 State Department officers involved with advising on Syria policy in various capacities, according to an official familiar with the document. The Wall Street Journal reviewed a copy of the cable, which repeatedly calls for “targeted military strikes” against the Syrian government in light of the near-collapse of the ceasefire brokered earlier this year.

The views expressed by the U.S. officials in the cable amount to a scalding internal critique of a longstanding U.S. policy against taking sides in the Syrian war, a policy that has survived even though the regime of President Bashar al-Assad has been repeatedly accused of violating ceasefire agreements and Russian-backed forces have attacked U.S.-trained rebels.

More spin: why has Obama been so "against" unleash a full blown invasion on Syria? "Obama administration officials have expressed concern that attacking the Assad regime could lead to a direct conflict with Russia and Iran."

Oh so that's why the nuclear arms race is now officially back, just a few weeks after the US launched a ballistic missile shield over Europe, in the process shifting the entire post-cold war nuclear proliferation balance of power. Got it.

Meanwhile, the attempt to paint Obama as a liberal, peace loving dove continue:

“It’s embarrassing for the administration to have so many rank-and-file members break on Syria,” said a former State Department official who worked on Middle East policy. These officials said dissent on Syria policy has been almost a constant since civil war broke out there in 2011. But much of the debate was contained to the top levels of the Obama administration. The recent letter marked a move by the heart of the bureaucracy, which is largely apolitical, to break from the White House.

Oh, if only Obama would be more willing to install even more pro-US puppet regimes... like in Afghanistan, Libya, Egypt, Tunisia, Iraq, Ukraine and so on, and so on... Clearly all of these have turned out so well, that certainly things would be so much better in the middle east. Well, maybe not, but at least that damn Qatari pipeline would finally start flowing.

So why leak this now:

....well there is this over-arching need to push proper pipelines as well as help Saudi Arabia and Israel those struggling US allies in the Middle East as they work diligently to spread democracy and the ways of apple pie...

...and then there is the issue of this Trump fella threatening to upset the existing applecart and make nice with Russia and destroy ISIS Merika's very dear and valuable friend ...and we couldn't have that can we, I mean Putin is after all evil incarnate and ISIS is just doing god's work aren't they...

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-06-17/untold-story-behind-mutiny-state-department-where-dozens-demand-war-syria

....and a view from the "other" side...you know those people who just don't properly appreciate everything Merika and her wonderful friends have done for them....ungrateful wretches, really....more bombing is just too good for them...

The "moral" outrage of 50 US diplomats

How brave of them. 50 US diplomats defied the conventional wisdom and called for more US bombing of an Arab country. How much courage this has taken. I mean, for a group of US diplomats to toe the line of AIPAC requires an unusual amount of courage. In the past, the courage of US diplomat was (rarely) displayed when an individual--not group like this case--defied US policies in favor of Israeli aggression and occupation. Almost to a diplomat, those cases of courage (George Ball and others around the Washington Report) were displayed only after those diplomats retired from service, when their usefulness was quite limited. SO this time 50 US diplomats (who deal with diplomacy) felt that their government was not doing enough in terms of bombing in the Middle East against yet another Arab country. Those 50 US diplomats--mind you--never bothered to utter a word against the Israeli war crimes in Gaza or Lebanon, and they never felt courage against GCC-US war crimes in Yemen. But they were so compelled to call for US bombing of Syria. Of course, those 50 US diplomats were never concerned about the inevitable civilians who die from US bombing of Arab countries. And can those 50 US diplomats point to one case in which US bombing advanced the cause of peace and democracy, or to a case where US bombing or even occupation replaced a dictatorship with a better form of government? Leave to the US to be able to replace Qadhdhafi's dictatorship with a worse regime. The US has singlehandedly succeeded in turning many Iraqis into nostalgia for the regime of Saddam Husayn. But that does not matter: 50 US diplomats want US to bomb Syria, and they mean business. Here, an objective neutral observer speaks on behalf of the 50 US diplomats in the New York Times: "“There is an enormous frustration in the bureaucracy about Syria policy,” said Andrew J. Tabler, a Syria expert at the Washington Institute for Near Eastern Policy." Also, did any of the US diplomat speak against the US relations with the Syrian regime when the two sides were allies? Just as no US diplomats ever spoke against US alliance with Saddam Husayn during the honey moon years. Those 50 US diplomats have as much courage and as much moral fortitude as Hillary Clinton when she calls for more aid to Israel.

Cheers

 

[blutto]

....hot on the heels of the leaked State Dept memo we have this absolutely surprising development....equally surprising is we haven't had a similar response from that other bulwark of democracy in the Middle East, Israel.... oh silly me they already have, though it was an honest mistake as it was delivered on State Dept stationary...

...actually surprised those bulwarks don't just save some ink and man up and do their own dirty work....but then if you do have the proper hired help there really is no need get one's hands dirty is there...after-all dirty hands are like so, dirty...

Saudi Arabia Repeats Call For US Strikes On Assad

Saudi Arabia on Friday reiterated its call for air strikes against Bashar al-Assad's regime in Syria, after US diplomats broke ranks with the White House to push for robust action.

Briefing journalists after talks at the White House, Saudi Foreign Minister Adel al-Jubeir said the kingdom had long urged Washington to lead a military response to undermine Assad's control.

At the Saudi Embassy, Jubeir noted that from the very start of the crisis, Riyadh had pushed for "a more robust policy, including air strikes, safe zones, a no fly zone, a no drive zone."

He said Saudi Arabia wanted to arm Syria's "moderate opposition" with ground-to-air missiles and repeated an offer to deploy Saudi special forces in any US-led operation.

Read more: http://en.abna24.com/service/middle-east-west-asia/archive/2016/06/18/760929/story.html

Cheers

 

[Brullnux]

Taking a hard line, whether on Crimea or the IAAF ban, does Putin no harm in Russia at all. Now the sum of western slights (as they are seen) are being cast in Moscow as the west’s own version of “hybrid warfare” – actions that together might constitute a state of war, but are passed off as something else.

A Russian appeal may mean that the ban is not the last word. But it should not be the last word in the west either. An extraordinary demarche came at the weekend from the German foreign minister, Frank-Walter Steinmeier. In an interview with Bild am Sonntag newspaper, he accused Nato – an alliance, lest we forget, of which Germany is a member – of “sabre-rattling and war-mongering” by staging military manoeuvres close to Russia’s borders. This, he said, was not the way to treat Russia; it was time to restart dialogue.

Steinmeier is a cautious politician, and it is unlikely that he uttered those words without at least tacit support from chancellor Angela Merkel. Which suggests that between the European members of Nato there is sharp disagreement about how to handle Russia: whether punitive isolation or engagement is the better course.

The argument, which has simmered in western capitals for months, has now burst into the open less than three weeks before Nato holds its summit in Warsaw. In breaking ranks as he did, Steinmeier has exposed the awkward truth. Isolation has not produced a more cooperative Russia, only a less stable Europe. It is time to try another way.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/19/isolating-russia-isnt-working-nato-moscow#comments

 

[blutto]

Re:

Taking a hard line, whether on Crimea or the IAAF ban, does Putin no harm in Russia at all. Now the sum of western slights (as they are seen) are being cast in Moscow as the west’s own version of “hybrid warfare” – actions that together might constitute a state of war, but are passed off as something else.

A Russian appeal may mean that the ban is not the last word. But it should not be the last word in the west either. An extraordinary demarche came at the weekend from the German foreign minister, Frank-Walter Steinmeier. In an interview with Bild am Sonntag newspaper, he accused Nato – an alliance, lest we forget, of which Germany is a member – of “sabre-rattling and war-mongering” by staging military manoeuvres close to Russia’s borders. This, he said, was not the way to treat Russia; it was time to restart dialogue.

Steinmeier is a cautious politician, and it is unlikely that he uttered those words without at least tacit support from chancellor Angela Merkel. Which suggests that between the European members of Nato there is sharp disagreement about how to handle Russia: whether punitive isolation or engagement is the better course.

The argument, which has simmered in western capitals for months, has now burst into the open less than three weeks before Nato holds its summit in Warsaw. In breaking ranks as he did, Steinmeier has exposed the awkward truth. Isolation has not produced a more cooperative Russia, only a less stable Europe. It is time to try another way.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/19/isolating-russia-isnt-working-nato-moscow#comments

....so a big win on several levels for the US who head manned the whole isolation thingee...

Cheers

 

[python]

@brullnux & blutto.

hear'ya both but i would not be taking the steinmeier statements as 'breaking ranks'. it is really simple - if germany seriously opposed the nato saber rattling, as herr der außenminister von deutschland put it, the nato show of force would never happen. the nato, just like the eu, is based on the unanimous positions. clearly, germany did not veto the saber tattling...

imo, the noise is more likely an old-fashioned carrot-stick approach in which germany has always been the carotene baiter...

the german media is an absolute leader in all things anti- vlad, anti- russia etc etc. the anti-doping hysteria is just a part.

 

[movingtarget]

Re:

@brullnux & blutto.

hear'ya both but i would not be taking the steinmeier statements as 'breaking ranks'. it is really simple - if germany seriously opposed the nato saber rattling, as herr der außenminister von deutschland put it, the nato show of force would never happen. the nato, just like the eu, is based on the unanimous positions. clearly, germany did not veto the saber tattling...

imo, the noise is more likely an old-fashioned carrot-stick approach in which germany has always been the carotene baiter...

the german media is an absolute leader in all things anti- vlad, anti- russia etc etc. the anti-doping hysteria is just a part.

Putin's problem is not from inside Russia where he has little opposition but it is in getting even more isolated internationally. Popularity inside Russia is not going to solve the big problems for Putin. I don't think Russia's more high profile approach in Syria has been the winner he hoped it would be. NATO does not have to do any sabre rattling as Putin has plenty of problems already. The doping and Euro nonsense is just the icing sugar on top. Every time Putin opens his mouth now he comes across as a victim. One minute he wants life bans for doping cheats and the next minute he is saying Russia is being treated unfairly !

 

[blutto]

....not that knowledgeable about this....any comments from the peanut gallery ?....

In a little-noticed move last week, Israeli defence minister Avigdor Lieberman barred an official close to Palestinian president Mahmoud Abbas from entering Israel. Mohammed Madani is accused of “subversive activity” and “political terror”.

His crimes, as defined by Lieberman, are worth pondering. They suggest that Israel’s conflict with the Palestinians is rooted less in security issues and more in European colonialism.

In his role as chair of the Palestinian committee for interaction with Israeli society, Madani had understandably used his visits to Israel to meet Israeli Jews – but he chose the wrong kind.

He tried to open a dialogue with what are known in Israel as Mizrahim, Israelis descended from the Jews who emigrated from Arab states following Israel’s creation in 1948. Today these Arab Jews comprise about half of Israel’s population. Abbas is known to be keen to forge ties with them.

Most of the country’s rulers identify as European Jews, or Ashkenazim. From the outset, this European elite distrusted the Arab Jews, seeing them as a “backward” population that might undermine Israel’s claim to be an outpost in the Middle East of the “civilised” west.

But more specifically the Ashkenazim feared that one day the Arab Jews might make a political alliance with the native population, the Palestinians. Then the Ashkenazim would be outnumbered. The Mizrahim, who came from countries as diverse as Morocco and Iraq, had a lot more in common with Palestinians than they did with the recently arrived Europeans.

Originally, Israel’s founders had intended not to include the Arab Jews in their nation-building project. They were forced to reconsider only because Hitler’s genocide in Europe deprived them of sufficient numbers of “civilised” Jews.

The archives reveal that Israel engineered much of the migration of Arab Jews, inducing them with false promises or conducting false-flag operations to foment suspicion of them in their home countries. They were seen as a useful cheap labour force, to replace the Palestinians who had been expelled.

David Ben Gurion, a Pole who became the first prime minister, described the Mizrahim in exclusively negative terms, as a “rabble” and “human dust”. They were a “generation of the desert”. Mizrahi immigrants were subjected to a programme of “de-Arabisation”, their presumed backwardness treated no differently from the diseases they supposedly carried. They were smothered in DDT on the flights to Israel.

Documents show the army vigorously debating whether their new Arab Jewish conscripts were mentally ***, making them a lost cause, or simply primitive, a condition that might be uprooted over time.

Israel’s struggle, according to Ben Gurion, was to “fight against the spirit of the Levant that corrupts individuals and society … We do not want the Israelis to become Arabs”.

That task was made harder because, despite an aggressive expulsion campaign in 1948, Israel still included a significant population of Palestinians who had become citizens.

Israel kept them apart from the Mizrahim through segregation – separate communities and education systems. Mizrahi children were forbidden to speak Arabic in their Jewish schools, and made to feel ashamed of their parents’ benighted ways.

http://www.counterpunch.org/2016/06/23/israels-fear-of-the-arab-jews-in-its-midst/

Cheers

 

[blutto]

.....possible interesting consequence of Brexit....this a comment to the following which btw is a good read.....

http://www.unz.com/tsaker/us-options-in-the-ukraine-trigger-a-religious-war/

Ukrainians are not that religious. Most would shrug off any church hierarchy disputes. Not enough there to start civil disturbances. Even nationalism and ethnic conflict only interest small minorities on both sides. The truth is that most Ukrainians are quite lukewarm when it comes to identity.

What really drove Maidan was a deep desire for a visa-free access to Europe. This yearning for unrestricted access to travel, study, live and work in Europe is the main passion in Ukraine, especially in Kiev. That’s why hundreds of thousands of young, aspirational and often dreamy people came to Maidan. (I am not underestimating the radical nationalists or foreign manipulation – it is just they would not achieve anything without the genuine crowds of hundreds of thousands regular people who supported Maidan.)

The big event will be the coming decision by EU on visa-free access. EU has been postponing it, they might try to split the difference. But soon a decision will have to be made. If EU gives Ukraine unrestricted visa-free access, millions will move, but it will also firm up support for Kiev government. If on the other hand Ukraine is denied visa-free access to EU – and endless delays are also a denial – the end could be very quick. The last “revolution” attempt in Ukraine ended ingloriously when Yushenko finally admitted that there would not be a visa-free access to EU.

Russia can do nothing about this. US has been trying to force EU to give Ukraine a visa-free access, but EU for its own self-preservation reasons has resisted. The costs of millions of Ukrainians coming could be very high, especially given the migrant-Brexit-bad economy. But a cost of turning them down is also enormous – once millions of visa-yearners are denied their disappointment could dramatically change the situation in Ukraine.

By the way, this dynamic exists in an extreme case in Ukraine, but it is present in most of the world – from Turkey to India, from Brazil to China, even Russia, West has been using travel access to its benefit. The problem is that it can be a very risky game.

....the world does work in mysterious ways sometimes don't it....

Cheers

 

[python]

wow...i never thought the sultan is capable of it. (btw, yesterday, he made up to zion, which i aslo did not believe could happen). what's next ? admitting the armenian genocide ?

Kremlin says Turkey apologized to Putin over plane incident
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-russia-turkey-jet-idUSKCN0ZD1PR?feedType=RSS&feedName=worldNews&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Reuters%2FworldNews+%28Reuters+World+News%29

It cited Erdogan as saying in the letter: "I want to once again express my sympathy and deep condolences to the family of the Russian pilot who died and I say: 'I'm sorry.'"

either turkey got seriously pained by vlad's sanctions (and likely his opening to the kurds) or vlad is again plotting something :surprised:

 

[blutto]

Re:

wow...i never thought the sultan is capable of it. (btw, yesterday, he made up to zion, which i aslo did not believe could happen). what's next ? admitting the armenian genocide ?

Kremlin says Turkey apologized to Putin over plane incident
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-russia-turkey-jet-idUSKCN0ZD1PR?feedType=RSS&feedName=worldNews&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Reuters%2FworldNews+%28Reuters+World+News%29

It cited Erdogan as saying in the letter: "I want to once again express my sympathy and deep condolences to the family of the Russian pilot who died and I say: 'I'm sorry.'"

either turkey got seriously pained by vlad's sanctions (and likely his opening to the kurds) or vlad is again plotting something :surprised:

....could be that Brexit slammed the door shut on possible EU membership and this is part of plan B....

Cheers

 

[python]

Re: Re:

wow...i never thought the sultan is capable of it. (btw, yesterday, he made up to zion, which i aslo did not believe could happen). what's next ? admitting the armenian genocide ?

Kremlin says Turkey apologized to Putin over plane incident
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-russia-turkey-jet-idUSKCN0ZD1PR?feedType=RSS&feedName=worldNews&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Reuters%2FworldNews+%28Reuters+World+News%29

It cited Erdogan as saying in the letter: "I want to once again express my sympathy and deep condolences to the family of the Russian pilot who died and I say: 'I'm sorry.'"

either turkey got seriously pained by vlad's sanctions (and likely his opening to the kurds) or vlad is again plotting something :surprised:

....could be that Brexit slammed the door shut on possible EU membership and this is part of plan B....

Cheers

of course it's a possibility. though personally, i cant - just can NOT imagine turkey a part of the eu and i doubt a 27-strong consensus would be ever possible yielding to what i see as an incomparable culture...

it is also possible that erdogan seeing himself being essentially outmaneuvered from any solution on syria - a region i speculate as important to turkey as ukraine to vlad - had seen some light. which, if true, could hint at a significantly more sensible approach to anything syria.

at least so i hope.

 

[Amsterhammer]

I'm posting this in all three political topics because the learned professor's wonderfully articulate words are relevant to all. I sincerely urge all of you to take 23 minutes to listen to him. You will not regret the time!

Mark Blyth (born in 1967) is a Scottish political scientist, and a professor of international political economy at Brown University. He is best known for his critique of austerity, Austerity: The History of a Dangerous Idea, described by Salon.com and AlterNet as "necessary reading" and as simultaneously functioning as an economics explainer, a polemic, and a history book offering "insight into austerity’s lineage, its theories, its champions and its failures." Blyth characterized the argument advanced by austerity advocates as "a canard" and "complete horsesh!t."[1][2]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGvZil0qWPg

 

[blutto]

Re: Re:

wow...i never thought the sultan is capable of it. (btw, yesterday, he made up to zion, which i aslo did not believe could happen). what's next ? admitting the armenian genocide ?

Kremlin says Turkey apologized to Putin over plane incident
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-russia-turkey-jet-idUSKCN0ZD1PR?feedType=RSS&feedName=worldNews&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Reuters%2FworldNews+%28Reuters+World+News%29

It cited Erdogan as saying in the letter: "I want to once again express my sympathy and deep condolences to the family of the Russian pilot who died and I say: 'I'm sorry.'"

either turkey got seriously pained by vlad's sanctions (and likely his opening to the kurds) or vlad is again plotting something :surprised:

....could be that Brexit slammed the door shut on possible EU membership and this is part of plan B....

Cheers

of course it's a possibility. though personally, i cant - just can NOT imagine turkey a part of the eu and i doubt a 27-strong consensus would be ever possible yielding to what i see as an incomparable culture...

it is also possible that erdogan seeing himself being essentially outmaneuvered from any solution on syria - a region i speculate as important to turkey as ukraine to vlad - had seen some light. which, if true, could hint at a significantly more sensible approach to anything syria.

at least so i hope.

...but that is one of Erdogan's dream's and the Turk's have been fishing for this one for a while ( and it was a carrot that the EU/NATO was dangling to direct Turkey to pursue certain avenues of action )....and if it was hard to imagine before it is now with the Brexit fallout virtually an impossibility...

Cheers

 

[blutto]

.....the other issue with Brexit is it throws a spanner of uncertainty into Merikan plans to confront Russia thru its cabal of poodles, NATO, which depends on a fairly united and strong Europe....Erdogan has already read the tea leaves and is starting to make nice with Russia and it could well be things are not going to get better for the one exceptional indispensable dispenser of freedom, apple pie and all things nice....

Brexit casts doubt over new EU and NATO defense strategy

June 28, 2016

BRUSSELS (Reuters) - Britain's departure from the European Union risks undermining Europe's new defense strategy, days before NATO and EU governments sign a landmark pact to confront a range of threats from Russia to the Mediterranean, officials say.

The European Union and the United States plan to use two separate EU and NATO summits in the coming days to push reforms of the West's two main security pillars, aimed at reducing Europe's reliance on Washington in its own neighborhood.

"Things are going to be a lot harder," said a senior Western defense official involved in EU-NATO cooperation. "NATO planned on linking itself up to a stronger European Union, not being the default option for a weakened, divided bloc."

Facing a more aggressive Russia, a migrant crisis and failing states on its borders, the European Union needs to "act autonomously if and when necessary", EU foreign policy chief Federica Mogherini will tell EU leaders on Tuesday as she unveils a five-year global strategy plan seen by Reuters.

https://ca.news.yahoo.com/brexit-casts-doubt-over-eu-nato-defense-strategy-080945278.html

....kinda funny that this is called defense strategy isn't it....

Cheers

 

[python]

some hours ago the istanbul airport was terror attacked by 3 suicide explosions. the latest casualty figure (source: trt world - the turkish tv station) is 38 dead and 120 injured, including the 5 police.

i quickly clicked the euronews and france 24 - they seem way behind the trt world.

according to reuters most victims were turkish. another earlier report related the turkish authorities believe it was the work of daesh.

 

[blutto]

Re:

some hours ago the istanbul airport was terror attacked by 3 suicide explosions. the latest casualty figure (source: trt world - the turkish tv station) is 38 dead and 120 injured, including the 5 police.

i quickly clicked the euronews and france 24 - they seem way behind the trt world.

according to reuters most victims were turkish. another earlier report related the turkish authorities believe it was the work of daesh.

...guess daesh's masters didn't like Erdogan's apology much and the direction it implied....gonna be real interesting how The Sultan responds....

Cheers

 

[python]

Re: Re:

...guess dash's masters didn't like Erdogan's apology much and the direction it implied....

Cheers

whilst i more or less can see why the duplicitous sultan wooed bibi, i truly don't understand his supposed rapprochement with vlad...

to begin with there was no apology, much less a sincere one. sure, a linguist can accrue a lot of mileage juggling translations of the words erdogan used, but 'i apologize' was not one of them. the kremlin even issued a 2nd official interpretation striking out the original 'apology'. then, the turkish pr. minister unequivocally stated 'there will be no compensation' thus shooting down another key russian demand.

something else is going on.
i tried to get my hands on a good analytical article, but found little. this german article in bild https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.bild.de/politik/ausland/recep-tayyip-erdogan/was-hat-erdogan-da-schon-wieder-vor-entschuldigung-bei-putin-46521628.bild.html&prev=search is rather shallow...

if anyone does see a serious analysis, i'd appreciate the link

edit: added the google translator for those interested.

 

[python]

Re: Re:

...guess dash's masters didn't like Erdogan's apology much and the direction it implied....

Cheers

whilst i more or less can see why the duplicitous sultan wooed bibi, i truly don't understand his supposed rapprochement with vlad...

to begin with there was no apology, much less a sincere one. sure, a linguist can accrue a lot of mileage juggling translations of the words erdogan used, but 'i apologize' was not one of them. the kremlin even issued a 2nd official interpretation striking out the original 'apology'. then, the turkish pr. minister unequivocally stated 'there will be no compensation' thus shooting down another key russian demand.

something else is going on.
i tried to get my hands on a good analytical article, but found little. this german article in bild https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.bild.de/politik/ausland/recep-tayyip-erdogan/was-hat-erdogan-da-schon-wieder-vor-entschuldigung-bei-putin-46521628.bild.html&prev=search is rather shallow...

if anyone does see a serious analysis, i'd appreciate the link

edit: added the google translator for those interested.

some interesting info is starting to trickle down that may address my own above-stated incredulity re. the sudden rapproachment...

the ever careful vlad, as i suspected, aint giving the sultan all he wanted, just b/c his highness wrote an ambiguous letter to vlad...

specifically, today vlad's ambassador to turkey (karlov) was quoted by both the russian and turkish sources that the 1st of the 3 original conditions (a. the apology, b. compensation to the dead pilot family, c. compensation for the downed plane) had been met. this means moscow expects 2 more concessions from turkey before fully normalizing the relations.

indeed, thier pm (medvedev) today hinted at 2 more conditions; the turks MUST provide the safety guarantees BEFORE the tourist fully go back and that the food sanctions against turkey, even if cancelled (which vlad slyly said he directed the lifting), 'will have to take into account the market competition mechanism given they were replaced after the sanctions took affect'

clearly, the media advertised rapprochement will have to wait for more developments that turkey must but may not enable.

my guess, they will have to...or the russians now have the perfect opportunity to mirror the turkish dis-ingenuity by shooting their plane in syria and very quickly mocking an apology that never was meant to be sincere.

truly, you reap (or should reap) what you sow.

 

[movingtarget]

Re: Re:

...guess dash's masters didn't like Erdogan's apology much and the direction it implied....

Cheers

whilst i more or less can see why the duplicitous sultan wooed bibi, i truly don't understand his supposed rapprochement with vlad...

to begin with there was no apology, much less a sincere one. sure, a linguist can accrue a lot of mileage juggling translations of the words erdogan used, but 'i apologize' was not one of them. the kremlin even issued a 2nd official interpretation striking out the original 'apology'. then, the turkish pr. minister unequivocally stated 'there will be no compensation' thus shooting down another key russian demand.

something else is going on.
i tried to get my hands on a good analytical article, but found little. this german article in bild https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.bild.de/politik/ausland/recep-tayyip-erdogan/was-hat-erdogan-da-schon-wieder-vor-entschuldigung-bei-putin-46521628.bild.html&prev=search is rather shallow...

if anyone does see a serious analysis, i'd appreciate the link

edit: added the google translator for those interested.

some interesting info is starting to trickle down that may address my own above-stated incredulity re. the sudden rapproachment...

the ever careful vlad, as i suspected, aint giving the sultan all he wanted, just b/c his highness wrote an ambiguous letter to vlad...

specifically, today vlad's ambassador to turkey (karlov) was quoted by both the russian and turkish sources that the 1st of the 3 original conditions (a. the apology, b. compensation to the dead pilot family, c. compensation for the downed plane) had been met. this means moscow expects 2 more concessions from turkey before fully normalizing the relations.

indeed, thier pm (medvedev) today hinted at 2 more conditions; the turks MUST provide the safety guarantees BEFORE the tourist fully go back and that the food sanctions against turkey, even if cancelled (which vlad slyly said he directed the lifting), 'will have to take into account the market competition mechanism given they were replaced after the sanctions took affect'

clearly, the media advertised rapprochement will have to wait for more developments that turkey must but may not enable.

my guess, they will have to...or the russians now have the perfect opportunity to mirror the turkish dis-ingenuity by shooting their plane in syria and very quickly mocking an apology that never was meant to be sincere.

truly, you reap (or should reap) what you sow.

The Turks can't assure anyone's safety especially tourists. With the amount of incidents increasing in Turkey tourism will take a hit anyway like it did in Egypt. The Turks are probably paying the price for playing politics with their borders but now they are saying the terrorists from the recent atrocity come from Russia, Uzbekistan and Kyrgyzstan. They have also refused to pay Russia compensation for the Russian pilot's family. Russia and Turkey seem to be very similar in that their opinions seem to change daily depending on who they are talking to.