World Politics

[Bustedknuckle]

Re: Re:

[quote="

clearly, the media advertised rapprochement will have to wait for more developments that turkey must but may not enable.

my guess, they will have to...or the russians now have the perfect opportunity to mirror the turkish dis-ingenuity by shooting their plane in syria and very quickly mocking an apology that never was meant to be sincere.

truly, you reap (or should reap) what you sow.[/quote]

The Turks can't assure anyone's safety especially tourists. With the amount of incidents increasing in Turkey tourism will take a hit anyway like it did in Egypt. The Turks are probably paying the price for playing politics with their borders but now they are saying the terrorists from the recent atrocity come from Russia, Uzbekistan and Kyrgyzstan. They have also refused to pay Russia compensation for the Russian pilot's family. Russia and Turkey seem to be very similar in that their opinions seem to change daily depending on who they are talking to.[/quote]

All 3 Russian...Vlad's revenge for a shot down SU-24?

 

[CheckMyPecs]

Apologising for defending his airspace is borderline lunatic. You only apologise for something if you think it was wrong to do it.

 

[python]

^ may be the 'defending his airspace' was another erdogan's impulsive brain fart or, once it became an imbarassing blunder, a fact he tried to spin as 'sovereignty' ?

based on what i saw you posting, you seem a reasonable enough chap to look around with some depth...consider these indisputable facts, acknowledged worldwide, including the official turks:

a. the shootingdown, io the plane met the ground well inside the syrian territory. about 10 km in, at least. ask yourself, how was that 'defending turkish airspace' ?
b. the turkish official story was the 'violation' lasted 17 to 19 seconds.
just so you consider such a short duration, if it ever happened, a 'violation' (and if not too lazy, you could find the link here, where one of the highest american airforce officers said he does 'not trust the erdogan version for 1 second').

most sober observers interpreted the shooting down as the contest of a harder and bigger hardon btwn the 2 sovereigns. keep in mind, historically, those with bigger and harder 'assets' never apologize.

that the sultan chose a form of 'sorry' should tell you there was likely never 'defending his airspace' as opposed to another impulsive, stupid move re. my 'dijk is bigger' which turned out a limp shorty...

 

[blutto]

Re: Re:

[quote="

clearly, the media advertised rapprochement will have to wait for more developments that turkey must but may not enable.

my guess, they will have to...or the russians now have the perfect opportunity to mirror the turkish dis-ingenuity by shooting their plane in syria and very quickly mocking an apology that never was meant to be sincere.

truly, you reap (or should reap) what you sow.

The Turks can't assure anyone's safety especially tourists. With the amount of incidents increasing in Turkey tourism will take a hit anyway like it did in Egypt. The Turks are probably paying the price for playing politics with their borders but now they are saying the terrorists from the recent atrocity come from Russia, Uzbekistan and Kyrgyzstan. They have also refused to pay Russia compensation for the Russian pilot's family. Russia and Turkey seem to be very similar in that their opinions seem to change daily depending on who they are talking to.[/quote]

All 3 Russian...Vlad's revenge for a shot down SU-24?[/quote]

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....yeah some rather dodgy Chechen types wanted in Russia on various terrorism charges and given refuge in the EU and "protected" by some flacks from Amnesty International.....yup just the type of people Vlad would choose to launch this operation....and you gotta keep in mind the Chechen unrest is being subsidized by your good friends in Saudi Arabia....

....so the West and their good friends have their fingerprints all over this and you come up with that story...well done...

Cheers

 

[aphronesis]

Commies might be hiding in your morning milk delivery B. Get sharp. Saudis aren't players. Chechens fund all that with embroidery sales. Everywhere out in the world is dark, nebulous and threatening. US is the flat white light.

 

[CheckMyPecs]

Re:

^ may be the 'defending his airspace' was another erdogan's impulsive brain fart or, once it became an imbarassing blunder, a fact he tried to spin as 'sovereignty' ?

based on what i saw you posting, you seem a reasonable enough chap to look around with some depth...consider these indisputable facts, acknowledged worldwide, including the official turks:

a. the shootingdown, io the plane met the ground well inside the syrian territory. about 10 km in, at least. ask yourself, how was that 'defending turkish airspace' ?
b. the turkish official story was the 'violation' lasted 17 to 19 seconds.
just so you consider such a short duration, if it ever happened, a 'violation' (and if not too lazy, you could find the link here, where one of the highest american airforce officers said he does 'not trust the erdogan version for 1 second').

That's the point. If the Turks contend that the Russian airplane violated their airspace, no matter how brief the violation, then they shouldn't be apologising for defending their national territory.

 

[movingtarget]

Dairy Shortage In Russia

https://au.finance.yahoo.com/news/russias-food-embargo-fires-counterfeit-203424353.html

 

[python]

Re: Re:

^ may be the 'defending his airspace' was another erdogan's impulsive brain fart or, once it became an imbarassing blunder, a fact he tried to spin as 'sovereignty' ?

based on what i saw you posting, you seem a reasonable enough chap to look around with some depth...consider these indisputable facts, acknowledged worldwide, including the official turks:

a. the shootingdown, io the plane met the ground well inside the syrian territory. about 10 km in, at least. ask yourself, how was that 'defending turkish airspace' ?
b. the turkish official story was the 'violation' lasted 17 to 19 seconds.
just so you consider such a short duration, if it ever happened, a 'violation' (and if not too lazy, you could find the link here, where one of the highest american airforce officers said he does 'not trust the erdogan version for 1 second').

That's the point. If the Turks contend that the Russian airplane violated their airspace, no matter how brief the violation, then they shouldn't be apologising for defending their national territory.

that's the point the turkish version is full of holes. if you chose to believe the turkish version despite the available facts - which as i noted one of the highest us air force officers in an exceptional public statement practically called a lie - that's your right.

the turks also said they dont allow the isis supplies through their border, which, again, almost everyone in nato knows is a lie. again, that's your right.

i don't.

 

[movingtarget]

China Will Disregard The Hague Ruling

https://au.news.yahoo.com/world/a/31955508/beijing-to-reject-hague-ruling-on-south-china-sea-case/

 

[CheckMyPecs]

Re: Re:

that's the point the turkish version is full of holes.

Okay, but if that's the version the Turks are sticking to, it's quite inconsistent to apologise.

 

[Bustedknuckle]

Re: Re:

[quote="
All 3 Russian...Vlad's revenge for a shot down SU-24?[/quote]

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-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

....yeah some rather dodgy Chechen types wanted in Russia on various terrorism charges and given refuge in the EU and "protected" by some flacks from Amnesty International.....yup just the type of people Vlad would choose to launch this operation....and you gotta keep in mind the Chechen unrest is being subsidized by your good friends in Saudi Arabia....

....so the West and their good friends have their fingerprints all over this and you come up with that story...well done...

Cheers[/quote]

All I wrote--yes, I know this wonky 'quote' protocol..

"All 3 Russian...Vlad's revenge for a shot down SU-24?"

 

[ScienceIsCool]

Re:

China Will Disregard The Hague Ruling

https://au.news.yahoo.com/world/a/31955508/beijing-to-reject-hague-ruling-on-south-china-sea-case/

As well it should? First, the dispute first occurred many decades before the UNCLOS came into being so there's the issue of jurisdiction. Second, territorial disputes are resolved via customary international law and not UNCLOS statutes. In 1982, the ICJ itself stated that these cases are not governed by UNCLOS (Tunisia/Libya dispute). Third, the PCA (Permanent Court of Arbitration) does not have universal standing as many countries have not signed on to that provision. International Law is definitely the norm considering that China and the Philippines have an actual TREATY covering these disputes, which requires negotiation. Fourth, there are other claimants than just the Philippines and China. There's also Vietnam, and Taiwan.

From what I understand there are a large number of legal objections and that many scholars agree. Heck, even the Wikipedia page is pretty thorough in that regards. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippines_v._China#Role_of_PCA

I don't necessarily agree that China should prevail, but they appear to be justified in ignoring the ruling from the PCA.

John Swanson

 

[movingtarget]

NATO Unity Being Tested

http://p.nytimes.com/email/re?location=4z5Q7LhI+KVBjmEgFdYACPLKh239P3pgO161Eqhk4uR6QGcwIxBBbdPtho0wS1u/0aunHX2HhMva5x7dlplBQzePvoJ6U3N/uxI691f4mAXq2ICCy+KMoeWqxaL3N+xmYx/IomRxCxYGTAMd1/anmEj/K/izfvEzo4h7sujGYvTunXnCeRCmDbAJiKJr+NNH&campaign_id=129&instance_id=78887&segment_id=92055&user_id=12d98412e3bcc0522f6cfbf4c21c54e6&regi_id=42685115

 

[python]

Re:

NATO Unity Being Tested

http://p.nytimes.com/email/re?location=4z5Q7LhI+KVBjmEgFdYACPLKh239P3pgO161Eqhk4uR6QGcwIxBBbdPtho0wS1u/0aunHX2HhMva5x7dlplBQzePvoJ6U3N/uxI691f4mAXq2ICCy+KMoeWqxaL3N+xmYx/IomRxCxYGTAMd1/anmEj/K/izfvEzo4h7sujGYvTunXnCeRCmDbAJiKJr+NNH&campaign_id=129&instance_id=78887&segment_id=92055&user_id=12d98412e3bcc0522f6cfbf4c21c54e6&regi_id=42685115

no disrespect is meant, movingtarget, but that article reminds me a journalistic constipation.

there was a time when the nato was a much needed organization. it had a well defined mission, a viable leader and a potent enemy...

not so now, it's a defunct organization desperately in search of its relevancy.

for a while, nato 'unity' survived by being a cover for american interventions world wide. even in its most justifiable mission, the war in afghanistan it was but a fig leaf of 'unity'. how many here for instance knew that german troops were strictly forbidden to fire their weapons while being in the middle of war !

some time later, when the american neocon designs became even more arrogant the gap between the us and some important allies increased further...or what do you think would happen to the turkish fighters violating the greek airspace daily...if both weren't 'allies' via a nato membership.

unity my ardze. the louder the declarations, the obvious (to me at least) the organization has outlived itself.

all that said, dont get me wrong, i do believe that the original nato and the eu formation were responsible for the longest peaceful period in the european history. that's barely holding now...it is my opinion that the nato expansion eastward is responsible for at least 3 recent bloody wars in europe and counting. we are really very lucky that a much bigger conflict had been avoided. who is encroaching on whom when the direction of nato expansion was one way only - eastward ?

the nato member differences that the article highlighted are the result of several factors. the most important imo being the weakening of the us global influence.

on the one hand, they are a natural consequence of global competition when other players like china, india, russia etc are becoming more assertive in defending their interests. on the other, though, it is i believe the result of obama's deliberately careful and less aggressive foreign policy. i praise him for that...for standing up to the zionist lobby re iran, for opening up to cuba, for trying to be rational in syria etc. but of course HE HAS to grandstand and occasionally thump his chest b/c that's what is expected of the leader.

the sooner nato transform from an american foreign policy appendix to a purely defensive organization, the better i see the world's future.

 

[movingtarget]

Re: Re:

NATO Unity Being Tested

http://p.nytimes.com/email/re?location=4z5Q7LhI+KVBjmEgFdYACPLKh239P3pgO161Eqhk4uR6QGcwIxBBbdPtho0wS1u/0aunHX2HhMva5x7dlplBQzePvoJ6U3N/uxI691f4mAXq2ICCy+KMoeWqxaL3N+xmYx/IomRxCxYGTAMd1/anmEj/K/izfvEzo4h7sujGYvTunXnCeRCmDbAJiKJr+NNH&campaign_id=129&instance_id=78887&segment_id=92055&user_id=12d98412e3bcc0522f6cfbf4c21c54e6&regi_id=42685115

no disrespect is meant, movingtarget, but that article reminds me a journalistic constipation.

there was a time when the nato was a much needed organization. it had a well defined mission, a viable leader and a potent enemy...

not so now, it's a defunct organization desperately in search of its relevancy.

for a while, nato 'unity' survived by being a cover for american interventions world wide. even in its most justifiable mission, the war in afghanistan it was but a fig leaf of 'unity'. how many here for instance knew that german troops were strictly forbidden to fire their weapons while being in the middle of war !

some time later, when the american neocon designs became even more arrogant the gap between the us and some important allies increased further...or what do you think would happen to the turkish fighters violating the greek airspace daily...if both weren't 'allies' via a nato membership.

unity my ardze. the louder the declarations, the obvious (to me at least) the organization has outlived itself.

all that said, dont get me wrong, i do believe that the original nato and the eu formation were responsible for the longest peaceful period in the european history. that's barely holding now...it is my opinion that the nato expansion eastward is responsible for at least 3 recent bloody wars in europe and counting. we are really very lucky that a much bigger conflict had been avoided. who is encroaching on whom when the direction of nato expansion was one way only - eastward ?

the nato member differences that the article highlighted are the result of several factors. the most important imo being the weakening of the us global influence.

on the one hand, they are a natural consequence of global competition when other players like china, india, russia etc are becoming more assertive in defending their interests. on the other, though, it is i believe the result of obama's deliberately careful and less aggressive foreign policy. i praise him for that...for standing up to the zionist lobby re iran, for opening up to cuba, for trying to be rational in syria etc. but of course HE HAS to grandstand and occasionally thump his chest b/c that's what is expected of the leader.

the sooner nato transform from an american foreign policy appendix to a purely defensive organization, the better i see the world's future.

Yes NATO has to evolve but then so does the EU. I also think that the South China Sea although not a NATO issue is going to be ongoing trouble. I hope the US continues to criticize Israel but the US election will decide that. Syria is just a mess. Now the US is being criticized for being too hands off in Syria but after Iraq and Afghanistan it's understandable. Syria has effected the EU and Brexit and little wonder that Putin is not unhappy about that but there is a lot of Russian money invested in Britain and it seems that economically some of the richer Russians won't be happy about it.

 

[Starstruck]

I'd say I'm somewhat surprised no one has brought up the Euro. banks but - meh. This looks to be the next crisis that brings the global economy down to a lower plateau. Have fun and good luck.

 

[python]

Re: Re:

....... I also think that the South China Sea although not a NATO issue is going to be ongoing trouble. .....

as was widely expected, china lost the case. lost completely. the decision went 100% the philippine way.

Tribunal says China has no historic title over South China Sea
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-southchinasea-ruling-stakes-idUSKCN0ZS02U?feedType=RSS&feedName=worldNews&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Reuters%2FworldNews+%28Reuters+World+News%29

but was it really a legal loss, as scienceiscool pointed out, when china said repeatedly it did not recognize the court.

the question is way above my legal skill set to even start entertaining on its merits. but the precedent a country ignoring an internationally legal body b/c of lack of its recognition does not belong to china.

take for instance, the international criminal court (icc). recently here there was a lot of opinions on the criminality of blair's war on iraq and how the monkey-faced bush and co should also face the international justice. turns out, while blair at least theoretically could face the icc, no american politician could b/c the us does not recognize it. period. in fact, the clinton adm. official position was 'we need to see how it functions BEFORE subjecting ourselves to its jurisdiction'.

this post is not about the us, of course, but it seems a simple and effective way out - in the chinese case grabbing more territory and in the us case making more war and committing more war crimes...

the trick is the old one: one only needs more warheads and guns to be 'right'. in the case of america everything is cool, but i'm not sure about china.

 

[ScienceIsCool]

China might not have a valid claim to the lands it claims, but the Philippines really did an "end-run" in this case. The PCA simply doesn't have jurisdiction to settle claims of territorial sovereignty (i.e., who owns the islands). They only have jurisdiction to *enforce* territorial sovereignty - things such as commercial access to resources (fish, oil, etc). Not to mention there are overlapping claims with Taiwan, Vietnam and others. China is right that the decision just doesn't have any legitimacy, and that's ignoring the fact that the two countries have a treaty that demands the issue be settled via negotiation.

John Swanson

 

[Amsterhammer]

POSSIBLE COUP ATTEMPT UNDERWAY IN TURKEY.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/15/turkey-low-flying-jets-and-gunfire-heard-in-ankara1/

 

[Amsterhammer]

Military claims to have taken over, and "detained government leaders". Whereabouts of Erdogan unknown.

 

[python]

yep, i was clicking around once i learned the news, trying to make more sense of the turkey coup likely taking place as i type...
it is extremely serious and loaded.

the latest reports are that the military are trying to replace the police. curiously, erdogan is not in turkey atm thus possibly explaining he coup timing.

i loath erdogan but would feel alarmed if more political islam would be the coup result.

 

[Amsterhammer]

I suspect that if anything, the military is likely to be more 'pro-US' than Erdogan. If the next general swears that now they're really going to get serious about Daesh, and that they will stop bombing "our" Kurds, I can see NATO listening, no?

Twitter and Facebook shut down.

 

[Amsterhammer]

The Turkish military released a statement which declared:

“Turkish Armed Forces have completely taken over the administration of the country to reinstate constitutional order, human rights and freedoms, the rule of law and general security that was damaged."

“All international agreements are still valid. We hope that all of our good relationships with all countries will continue."

 

[Irondan]

Re:

I suspect that if anything, the military is likely to be more 'pro-US' than Erdogan. If the next general swears that now they're really going to get serious about Daesh, and that they will stop bombing "our" Kurds, I can see NATO listening, no?

Twitter and Facebook shut down.

I wonder how the EU will react to a coup taking place in one of their countries?

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Re: Re:

I suspect that if anything, the military is likely to be more 'pro-US' than Erdogan. If the next general swears that now they're really going to get serious about Daesh, and that they will stop bombing "our" Kurds, I can see NATO listening, no?

Twitter and Facebook shut down.

I wonder how the EU will react to a coup taking place in one of their countries?

WorWorld of wonder. I sorta guess we should have seen this coming.