World Politics

[straydog]

Wow, you really make a good argument regarding US outrage on the subject when you quote Palin and Huckabee talking crap



And what would that be?

to the first highlighted part...ok....lets add to the list if you don't know how to use google.

In no particular Order...Clinton...she seems pleased doesn't she? Amazon being pressured to close wiki's US servers, PAYPAL suspending their funding accounts...hell even Switzerland have joined in and closed their new domain last night....WL has had to use five different domains in the last week...and utilise countless mirror sites....The canadian deputy PM suggesting he should be assasinated. Russia stating they will seek to extradite him. One of their other founder members being taken into custody in the US and threatened....I can go on and if you want I will

What is coming next? Well it aint a big secret. Let's just say, that your hopefully eroded confidence in the US and international banking system might just take a slightly bigger hit.

Enjoy

 

[rhubroma]

How is producing information an executable offense? I think the guy is a voice of truth, and hope he keeps posting what he is sent. I cannot wait for him to post the info he has on Bank of America. Free speech is a good thing. Repeat that over and over.

This has become a lesson that demonstrates how Power fears only one thing: the Truth. Especially when it is a Truth that it doesn't want the public to know about. Makes you think about how many lies we are told daily, which are meant for us to be taken for the truth.

It's been incredible, though totally not surprising, how the governements (especially the US body politic) have so vehemently denounced Assange's leaks and placed his "offense" on par with international terrorism. For what? For destablizing the machine, which Power constitutes, by placing the King nude in front of everybody to see.

I too can't wait to see what comes out on the banks and financial institutions, who are the true culprits of the scandalous financial crimes which have recently been commited under the aegis of the governments. I therefore think that what Wikileaks is doing is a public service. I also think that the Powers have become too totalitarian in the world of today and, consequently, Assange's mission is even a rightous cause.

 

[Barrus]

Am I alone in thinking Assange should be apprehended and be accountable, or at least face the investigation and perhaps the following prosecution? Jeez, he perhaps raped two women. And the threat that they will make all the information public without protecting the people named in the documents is really just blackmail and they should not have resorted to that. That act alone makes me have no respect at all for these people

 

[straydog]

This has become a lesson that demonstrates how Power fears only one thing: the Truth. Especially when it is a Truth that it doesn't want the public to know about. Makes you think about how many lies we are told daily, which we are meant for us to be taken for the truth.

It's been incredible, though totally not surprising, how the governements (especially the US body politic) have so vehemently denounced Assange's leaks and placred his "offense" on par with international terrorism. For what? For destablizing the machine, which Power constitutes, by placing the King nude in front of everybody to see.

I too can't wait to see what comes out on the banks and financial institutions, who are the true culprits of the scandalous financial crimes which have recently been commited under the aegis of the governments. I therefore think that what Wikileaks is doing is a public service. I also think that the Powers have become too totalitarian in the world of today and, consequently, Assange's mission is even a rightous cause.

+1 Rhubarb. A f**king star!

I think the most important thing to come out of this is the very point you make....that it will become impossible for Politicians and "public" servants in general to think they have pulled the wool over the public's eyes. Hopefully that might encourage one or two of them to act more responsibly....and if not, then they will inevitably face the consequences.

And yes it is a righteous cause anyone who has watched the film shot from the apache helicopter in Iraq should be disgusted....anyone who has read about the incidents at falujah likewise...or about US policy at Gauntanamo....

Attacking or attempting to discredit the mouthpiece is a ridiculous red herring, aided in part by certain elements in the media who are keen to protect their "friends" and their own interests.

Frankly, the only scandalous thing about the diplomatic slagging emails is that any diplomat, who as part of their job will read intercepted emails from other countries, is stupid enough to explicitly bad mouth someone, without expecting that it might get back to them. I call that natural selection

 

[rhubroma]

Am I alone in thinking Assange should be apprehended and be accountable, or at least face the investigation and perhaps the following prosecution? Jeez, he perhaps raped two women. And the threat that they will make all the information public without protecting the people named in the documents is really just blackmail and they should not have resorted to that. That act alone makes me have no respect at all for these people

One of his accusers admitted to consensual sex, before, supposedly, the condom broke. The other has simply accused him of unconsensual sex. In any case, there is no proof as of now that he is a rapist. Though this is rather besides the point.

There has not been one proven instance of any individual having had their life placed under threat by any of Assange's revelations. What has been demonstrated, by contrast, is the effectiveness of a negative image propaganda campaign put up by those (namely the power structure) that have the most to loose by letting the public know the truth about that which they have previously been lied to about without shame by the political-military-financial establishments. This is why I don't buy into the propaganda, nor trust what these establishments say publicly.

 

[Barrus]

One of his accusers admitted to consentual sex, before, supposedly, the condom broke. The other has simply accused him of unconsentual sex. In any case, there is no proof as of now that he is a rapist. Though this is rather besides the point.

There has not been one proven instance of any individual having had their life placed under threat by any of Assange's revelations. What has been demonstrated, by contrast, is the effectiveness of a negative image propaganda campaign put up by those (namely the power structure) that have the most to loose by letting the public know the truth about that which they have previously been lied to about without shame by the political-military-financial establishments. This is why I don't buy into the propaganda, nor trust what these establishments say publicly.

Concerning the rape case, I have no idea of the details of the case, as I not part of the case. However the Swedish supreme court upheld the arrest warrant and stated that it was legitimate, which would indicate that there is at least some reasonable suspicion which warrants the arrest of Assange, this combined with his flight from Sweden makes it quite logical that an arrest warrant is issued and to ensure his presence during the investigation and the possible trial he needs to be in custody. Also even if the sex was originally consensual, the moment one person wants to stop and the other continues, it is rape

I also don't mean of the revelations so far, but the threat of the people behind wikileaks to put out allthe documents they have, without any measures taken to protect people, when Assange would be arrested.

 

[straydog]

Am I alone in thinking Assange should be apprehended and be accountable, or at least face the investigation and perhaps the following prosecution? Jeez, he perhaps raped two women. And the threat that they will make all the information public without protecting the people named in the documents is really just blackmail and they should not have resorted to that. That act alone makes me have no respect at all for these people

Barrus...see my above post regarding the case in sweden.

The "threat" of compromising any nations national security, that is so often bandied about by those wishing to cover their a**es, has been shown to be a fallacy. They, nor anyone else has been able to provide one shred of proof that anyone has been "outed", harmed or in any way compromised by what WL has reported. Have a look for it....you may be some time.

What should he be accountable for? Publishing information in the public interest? Exposing hypocrisy, criminal behaviour and corruption by public figures? Well i think he has held his hands up to that...but last I checked that wasn't considered a crime or blackmail?

Also, he didn't "leak" anything....merely published it, as have many journalistic organizations before him. Do you not want to know the truth Barrus?

post script...I don't know where you read that he "flew" from sweden. He has been in the UK organising and attending press conferences with regards to the diplomatic cables. He and his lawyers have co operated with the British Police on the matter of extradition.

 

[Barrus]

Barrus...see my above post regarding the case in sweden.

The "threat" of compromising any nations national security, that is so often bandied about by those wishing to cover their a**es, has been shown to be a fallacy. They, nor anyone else has been able to provide one shred of proof that anyone has been "outed", harmed or in any way compromised by what WL has reported. Have a look for it....you may be some time.

What should he be accountable for? Publishing information in the public interest? Exposing hypocrisy, criminal behaviour and corruption by public figures? Well i think he has held his hands up to that...but last I checked that wasn't considered a crime or blackmail?

Also, finally, he didn't "leak" anything....merely published it, as have many journalistic organizations before him. Do you not want to know the truth Barrus?

I am talking about the fact that he is investigated in two rape cases.

Also, again I mean the threat of the wikileaks guys to publish all the documents they have without any efforts to protect the people named in them in the advent of the arrest of Assange, which is a cheap blackmail trick. To paraphrase: "Don't arrest him, or else ..."

 

[rhubroma]

+1 Rhubarb. A f**king star!

I think the most important thing to come out of this is the very point you make....that it will become impossible for Politicians and "public" servants in general to think they have pulled the wool over the public's eyes. Hopefully that might encourage one or two of them to act more responsibly....and if not, then they will inevitably face the consequences.

And yes it is a righteous cause anyone who has watched the film shot from the apache helicopter in Iraq should be disgusted....anyone who has read about the incidents at falujah likewise...or about US policy at Gauntanamo....

Attacking or attempting to discredit the mouthpiece is a ridiculous red herring, aided in part by certain elements in the media who are keen to protect their "friends" and their own interests.

Frankly, the only scandalous thing about the diplomatic slagging emails is that any diplomat, who as part of their job will read intercepted emails from other countries, is stupid enough to explicitly bad mouth someone, without expecting that it might get back to them. I call that natural selection

Indeed this was my point in responding to Barus' post. The other thing is that, while it has not been proven one iota about the lives Assange has supposedly placed at risk, it has certainly been demonstrated how many innocent civilian lives have been masacred by the US military during its multi-front wars.

And all based upon lies that the US body politic sold to the UN, and hence the world, to sell its illegal war in Iraq. This is the real scandal, not what Assange is doing. And anyone that doesn't understand this becomes a passive accomplice in such criminal behavior by supporting the evil forces which govern us.

 

[Barrus]

And yes it is a righteous cause anyone who has watched the film shot from the apache helicopter in Iraq should be disgusted....anyone who has read about the incidents at falujah likewise...or about US policy at Gauntanamo....

To be quite honest, the first incident wasn't even that bad, the only problem that I had with that instance was the fact that they targeted the people trying to get the injured person out. Nothing else on that video was even that bad.

Also the US policy in Guantanamo, to be completely honest, perhaps I am cynical, but I have heard and read enough to know that all states torture, some to larger extend than others, but it still happens, especially in the case of intelligence agencies and the military. Waterboarding as such isn't even one of the worse or most effective methods. I was not really surprised about anything that went on over there.

@ Rhub, again I do not mean anything wikileaks has posted up untill this point, but their reaction to the possibility that Assange was arrested, that response was disgusting especially considering the reason why he could be arrested.

 

[straydog]

Indeed this was my point in responding to Barus' post. The other thing is that, while it has not been proven one iota about the lives Assange has supposedly placed at risk, it has certainly been demonstrated how many innocent civilian lives have been masacred by the US military during its multi-front wars.

And all based upon lies that the US body politic sold to the UN, and hence the world, to sell its illegal war in Iraq. This is the real scandal, not what Assange is doing. And anyone that doesn't understand this becomes a passive accomplice in such criminal behavior by supporting the evil forces which govern us.

Rhub...come here and hug it out...you are officially my brother from another mother! From now on...I am quoting you. Keep saying what you are saying. It matters! And as you say, anyone who can't see that, is complicit and frankly does not get my sympathy when their time comes to be bent over and soundly f**ked by the body politic. And trust me that time is coming. The body politic has the libido of a dog with two c*cks!

Barrus....this "threat" that you keep mentioning. Where did you read that? What news media do you subscribe to? Might be worth contemplating.

I am passionate about this...so apologies if I come on a bit strong...but wake up and smell the coffee!

 

[rhubroma]

Concerning the rape case, I have no idea of the details of the case, as I not part of the case. However the Swedish supreme court upheld the arrest warrant and stated that it was legitimate, which would indicate that there is at least some reasonable suspicion which warrants the arrest of Assange, this combined with his flight from Sweden makes it quite logical that an arrest warrant is issued and to ensure his presence during the investigation and the possible trial he needs to be in custody. Also even if the sex was originally consensual, the moment one person wants to stop and the other continues, it is rape

I also don't mean of the revelations so far, but the threat of the people behind wikileaks to put out allthe documents they have, without any measures taken to protect people, when Assange would be arrested.

We must reserve any judgment on his supposed rapes to his first being condemned in a court of law, on the plain principle of "innocence until proven otherwise." And given his situation, how can we not assume that it is just as plausble (perhapse even likely) that his accursers aren't simply being paid to frame Assange and so demonize him before the public eye by the power structure?

What is important in the end, however, is innocence until proven guilty. Though, let's say, he is guilty, this in no way changes the truths his organization is informing the public about. And I for one think that the more Power becomes unmasked, the more the King is divested before his subjects, the more the military and financial establishments are exposed for the horrible crimes they commit against humanity, then the healthier democracy is and the more tolerable this miserably unjust world becomes.

 

[rhubroma]

Rhub...come here and hug it out...you are officially my brother from another mother! From now on...I am quoting you. Keep saying what you are saying. It matters! And as you say, anyone who can't see that, is complicit and frankly does not get my sympathy when their time comes to be bent over and soundly f**ked by the body politic. And trust me that time is coming. The body politic has the libido of a dog with two c*cks!

Barrus....this "threat" that you keep mentioning. Where did you read that? What news media do you subscribe to? Might be worth contemplating.

I am passionate about this...so apologies if I come on a bit strong...but wake up and smell the coffee!

Well, I've never been called anyone's surrogate brother before. But hey, if it tickles you...

 

[straydog]

To be quite honest, the first incident wasn't even that bad, the only problem that I had with that instance was the fact that they targeted the people trying to get the injured person out. Nothing else on that video was even that bad.

Barrus....if you really think this. I mean really think this, then mine and your moral compasses are completely at odds and discussion is unlikely to ever repair that.

So gunning down and killing two Reuters journalists doesn't worry you...it aint that bad? Shooting and killing those driving a vehicle clearly trying to help an injured unarmed victim isn't that bad? The commentary of the soldier urging the guy crawling away to "just go for a weapon"? The children in the vehicle? Stating that if they didn't want their kids hurt they shouldn't bring them to a war? even though the vehicle was trying to evacuate the children to a hospital?

Barrus...wow...wow...wow...I am genuinely confused

 

[Barrus]

Rhub...come here and hug it out...you are officially my brother from another mother! From now on...I am quoting you. Keep saying what you are saying. It matters! And as you say, anyone who can't see that, is complicit and frankly does not get my sympathy when their time comes to be bent over and soundly f**ked by the body politic. And trust me that time is coming. The body politic has the libido of a dog with two c*cks!

Barrus....this "threat" that you keep mentioning. Where did you read that? What news media do you subscribe to? Might be worth contemplating.

I am passionate about this...so apologies if I come on a bit strong...but wake up and smell the coffee!

http://www.volkskrant.nl/vk/nl/3884/WikiLeaks/article/detail/1068052/2010/12/03/Assange-documenten-komen-vrij-als-ons-iets-overkomt.dhtml

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/blog/2010/dec/03/julian-assange-wikileaks

The Cable Gate archive has been spread, along with significant material from the US and other countries to over 100,000 people in encrypted form. If something happens to us, the key parts will be released automatically.

One would presume that the arrest being one of these

 

[straydog]

Well, I've never been called anyone's surrogate brother before. But hey, if it tickles you...

hey I give credit where it's due....now If I can just get you to drop the LA smackdowns we can officially become a forum "item"

 

[rhubroma]

hey I give credit where it's due....now If I can just get you to drop the LA smackdowns we can officially become a forum "item"

Ahhh, that's gonna be a just a little problem....

And straydog I find it difficult to imagine how one as wise and just thinking as yourself, could be so pursuaded in that direction. For these are simply two incompatible, and ultimately irreconcilable, world views. Well I guess nobody's perfect.

 

[straydog]

http://www.volkskrant.nl/vk/nl/3884/WikiLeaks/article/detail/1068052/2010/12/03/Assange-documenten-komen-vrij-als-ons-iets-overkomt.dhtml

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/blog/2010/dec/03/julian-assange-wikileaks



One would presume that the arrest being one of these

Barrus...it is odd you interpret that as a threat.

His point is that ALL WL material has been backed up and shared via mirrors, so that if someone finds (and they are trying) a way to stop WL running their own site, that the information they have already posted and are in the process of reviewing will still be able to be released. This isn't a sinister threat. It is a simple message to those guilty...no matter what you try....people will find out about what you have done.

 

[Barrus]

We must reserve any judgment on his supposed rapes to his first being condemned in a court of law, on the plain principle of "innocence until proven otherwise." And given his situation, how can we not assume that it is just as plausble (perhapse even likely) that his accursers aren't simply being paid to frame Assange and so demonize him before the public eye by the power structure?

What is important in the end, however, is innocence until proven guilty. Though, let's say, he is guilty, this in no way changes the truths his organization is informing the public about. And I for one think that the more Power becomes unmasked, the more the King is divested before his subjects, the more the military and financial establishments are exposed for the horrible crimes they commit against humanity, then the healthier democracy is and the more tolerable this miserably unjust world becomes.

Even if they are paid, let a court decide, his flight and his unwillingness to work along with the investigation ensure that an arrest warrant would be issued. I'm not saying anything about the case itself, but only about the arrest warrant.

Barrus....if you really think this. I mean really think this, then mine and your moral compasses are completely at odds and discussion is unlikely to ever repair that.

So gunning down and killing two Reuters journalists doesn't worry you...it aint that bad? Shooting and killing those driving a vehicle clearly trying to help an injured unarmed victim isn't that bad? The commentary of the soldier urging the guy crawling away to "just go for a weapon"? The children in the vehicle? Stating that if they didn't want their kids hurt they shouldn't bring them to a war? even though the vehicle was trying to evacuate the children to a hospital?

Barrus...wow...wow...wow...I am genuinely confused

You need to know the circumstances of the case. As I said, shooting those that came to help the wounded was wrong. However the other actions are not that uncommon on a battlefield. The bravado and the comments of the person behind the gun are not unheard of, or even that strange. When you are in a combat situation, send out due to the fact that there have been attacks from that part of the region, you see someone pointing something towards you and in another picture you see someone carrying an AK 47, it is not that strange to shoot down the two reuters reporters.

For the rest I need to watch the video again, to see what exact transpired, as it is quite a time since I've last seen it.

 

[straydog]

Ahhh, that's gonna be a just a little problem....

And straydog I find it difficult to imagine how one as wise and just thinking as yourself, could be so pursuaded in that direction. For these are simply two incompatible, and ultimately irreconcilable, world views. Well I guess nobody's perfect.

my thoughts exactly.....is this our first tiff?....making up is gonna be fun

 

[rhubroma]

http://www.volkskrant.nl/vk/nl/3884/WikiLeaks/article/detail/1068052/2010/12/03/Assange-documenten-komen-vrij-als-ons-iets-overkomt.dhtml

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/blog/2010/dec/03/julian-assange-wikileaks



One would presume that the arrest being one of these

The second article you posted was translated in la Republica (Rome's daily) either today or yesterday, I don't remember, so I was familiar with it. But this bit spoken by Assange let's us know exactly why his cause absolutely needs to be made public.

Julian Assange:
The west has fiscalised its basic power relationships through a web of contracts, loans, shareholdings, bank holdings and so on. In such an environment it is easy for speech to be "free" because a change in political will rarely leads to any change in these basic instruments. Western speech, as something that rarely has any effect on power, is, like badgers and birds, free. In states like China, there is pervasive censorship, because speech still has power and power is scared of it. We should always look at censorship as an economic signal that reveals the potential power of speech in that jurisdiction. The attacks against us by the US point to a great hope, speech powerful enough to break the fiscal blockade.

Such a cause as Assange's may be the only thing that saves society from the total tyranny of the power structure he alludes to, because any power left unchecked becomes a form of absolutism. And the democratic State was supposed to have put an end to the absolutist regimes that had governed the world till then and which in many places still do.

The power that the financial and military institutions hold in the American democracy today, very much place at risk the Enlightenment values upon which it was built almost three centuries ago. That also goes for all the democracies of the Western World of course.

 

[straydog]

Even if they are paid, let a court decide, his flight and his unwillingness to work along with the investigation ensure that an arrest warrant would be issued. I'm not saying anything about the case itself, but only about the arrest warrant.




You need to know the circumstances of the case.....

Barrus...watch the video again...the unedited version....the "facts" of the case are plain to see.

Something not being uncommon does not make it "not that bad". In fact it being not uncommon makes it worse in some cases. Is this the behaviour we really have become desensitised to? Because it happens all the time? I don't want to drag any unwarranted facistic second world war massacre allusions in here.... but surely history has shown us that people becoming blase about immoral behaviour is symptomatic of a very deep and worrying malaise.

 

[Barrus]

Barrus...watch the video again...the unedited version....the "facts" of the case are plain to see.

Something not being uncommon does not make it "not that bad". In fact it being not uncommon makes it worse in some cases. Is this the behaviour we really have become desensitised to? Because it happens all the time? I don't want to drag any unwarranted facistic second world war massacre allusions in here.... but surely history has shown us that people becoming blase about immoral behaviour is symptomatic of a very deep and worrying malaise.

I have seen the entire video and still am of the opinion that it is not that bad. They should've never gotten permission to shoot on the van. But this again is not on the shooter himself, but on his commanding officer, it was not a manifestly illegal order. The actions of shooting the two reporters were justified and quite understandable. The people walked around, with at least on person carrying something which could be seen as an ak-47 or even an rpg. Helicopters had been shot in that region before, they were called in this time due to disturbances in that region, if you see something pointed towards you, which the people in the helicopter taught was an rpg, the correct respons is to open fire.

Now the van was clearly not a permissable target, the childern are not really of concern for that assesment, the simple fact that they were taking out the wounded and killed made it an illegitimate target and their CO should never have given the permission to open fire.

The comments by the pilot and the gunner are quite honestly understandable and normal for troops, it is their way of coping, there is absolutely nothing wrong with the manner in which they behaved. The comments are actually quite reasonable. The comments about the childern indicate that both were not aware of the childern to be there and this is their manner to justify what they had done, for if they would fact it directly in that situation, it would render them unfit to continue their service and could well have permanent psychological damage


Look, all you guys, I'm not against wikileaks, nor do I believe the site should be shut down, it provides and invaluable service. However he should face his prosecution in the rape case and due to this case his arrest warrant is something that I expected and that I really have no problem with, I even expressly agree with it.

 

[straydog]

I have seen the entire video and still am of the opinion that it is not that bad. They should've never gotten permission to shoot on the van. But this again is not on the shooter himself, but on his commanding officer, it was not a manifestly illegal order. The actions of shooting the two reporters were justified and quite understandable. The people walked around, with at least on person carrying something which could be seen as an ak-47 or even an rpg. Helicopters had been shot in that region before, they were called in this time due to disturbances in that region, if you see something pointed towards you, which the people in the helicopter taught was an rpg, the correct respons is to open fire.

Now the van was clearly not a permissable target, the childern are not really of concern for that assesment, the simple fact that they were taking out the wounded and killed made it an illegitimate target and their CO should never have given the permission to open fire.

The comments by the pilot and the gunner are quite honestly understandable and normal for troops, it is their way of coping, there is absolutely nothing wrong with the manner in which they behaved. The comments are actually quite reasonable. The comments about the childern indicate that both were not aware of the childern to be there and this is their manner to justify what they had done, for if they would fact it directly in that situation, it would render them unfit to continue their service and could well have permanent psychological damage


Look, all you guys, I'm not against wikileaks, nor do I believe the site should be shut down, it provides and invaluable service. However he should face his prosecution in the rape case and due to this case his arrest warrant is something that I expected and that I really have no problem with, I even expressly agree with it.

So Barrus in conclusion....you think that killing of journalists in a war zone is justified...and should not be recognised as a regrettable mistake even?....torture isn't to bad, understandable in some cases even....and it is ok to not hold those responsible to account even if they have given the order to fire on a non permissable target? I think I see where you and I differ on this.

I am glad you support WL though....and of course JA should attend interviews as a "witness" as has been requested....so why don't we wait and see if he officially becomes a suspect or is charged....and honestly if he is...what real relevance does it have to WL's role?

His role at WL, though, might have some relevance as to why he is being pursued....

 

[Barrus]

So Barrus in conclusion....you think that killing of journalists in a war zone is justified...and should not be recognised as a regrettable mistake even?....torture isn't to bad, understandable in some cases even....and it is ok to not hold those responsible to account? I think I see where you and I differ on this.

I am glad you support WL though....and of course JA should attend interviews as a "witness" as has been requested....so why don't we wait and see if he officially becomes a suspect or is charged....and honestly if he is...what real relevance does it have to WL's role?

His role at WL, though, might have some relevance as to why he is being pursued....

Killing of journalists in war zone can certainly be justified and in some cases should not be seen as a regrettable mistake. When a journalist goes into a battle zone he knows the risks he leads, especially if he alligns himself with people carrying weapons and going into a high risk area. In this case I am most certainly on the side of the soldiers. Now again, the second instance, I most certainly am not on their side. And as I thought could be inferred from my previous post, I am of the opinion that the person who gave the order should be held accountable before a military tribunal. I do not kinow whether this has happened as most of these proceedings do not happen in public, nor are the proceedings made public, for good reasons.

Now I'm not saying torture isn't too bad, but that it happens everywhere and frankly the situation in guantanamo didn't surprise me. I frankly expected a lot worse than just waterboarding. Which frankly is not nerely as bad as what the English did against the IRA. People should be held accountable for what went on in guantanamo, but I expect that not to happen. Call me a pramatic person, but I believe there are a lot of different things we should worry ourself about before getting bent out of shape for what happens in guantanamo, especially for those not in the US. First critize our own governments for their own actions and their condonement of far greater human rights abuses, before getting bent out of shape for reasonably minor violations of the US. (minor in comparison to certain regimes in the middle east and Asia especially)