World Politics

[Hugh Januss]

Taking our healthcare system and not fixing the existing problems but creating a brand new entitlement combined with no recognization of the problems that exist with entitlements in my mind equal throwing the baby out with the bath water.

You characterize my point of view as the politics of greed. This is your characterization not mine.

Sorry, I didn't ask what you think we shouldn't do, I asked what you think we should do. Do you see the difference there?

 

[rhubroma]

Again, all very fanciful. On a scale large enough for a industrialized nation not to go without, what should the proper incentive be to attract the best and brightest to medicine? I'll argue that alltruism is not sufficient and I could care less about profit, EXCEPT that it provides incentive to be and do better. I'll restate, I am no fan of corruption, public or private. However, I do not see the profit motive as 100% evil 100% of the time. Sorry.

Should a physician make more or less than a teacher? More or less than a baker? Tell me how this all works? Do you believe then the state should be resopnsible for the cost medical school and how much should the university be able to charge? Dammit, education is important, it is a right and it should be free. Right? And since you take your slice from education I will now go on record pointing my crooked finger at all educators with a proclamation that you are over-paid and for the sake of society should just work for... whatever your basic needs are. Fair?

If there isn't an incentive then what happens to the level of care? What happens to innovation? What happens to education? Do you really think that innovation and breakthrough continues in medicine out of the goodness of people's hearts? All innovation and quality of care all the time without any cost. Sounds peachy.

It will simply be the DMV-ization of healtcare.

Hugh is right. We can argue until we are blue in the face. You guys are bound and determined to throw the baby out with the bath water and who the F am I to try and stop you. Have at it.

This profit issue you speak of, has not conditioned the medical profession here. I don't see any relevance to your point. Also because it isn't as if under a public health care system, there is a shortage of bright minds seeking a medical career. Not so in Italy, France, Spain, Germany, Belgium, Holland, Denmark, England, Greece, Portugal and the other remaining EU nations.

Many of these States have remained highly innovative too, especially France from what I've read. Education standards remain first rate. On this point you are simply ignorant and blinded by misguided preconceptions as a result of an ideological position.

Look the issue of investments isn't really the point within the developed world at any rate, nor is private medicine to be abolished since their is, like it or not, a market for it. I never said that it should.

I merely have argued that it should not be the exclusive option, in a system which first lacks a public structure paid for by the collective tax pool. America has chosen to have things just this way, because of its fervent obedience to the capitalist ideology of a hyper-individualism with no sense of social responsibility, especially among the conservative class but not only. Though we have seen how this isn't merely the case, which at least provides some hope.

Frankly the entire debate from Europe's perspective seems bizarre and incomprehensible in the utmost, as if how could any developed country not have a viable public health care system first, before the private option?

I don't get it either. I'm done with this argument

 

[Semper Fidelis]

So don't read them and stop wasting my time.

Me reading your posts = wasting your time? Nah ....Noam Chomsky is more a waste of time but some of your posts resemble his positions. I guess that is because your a school teacher.

 

[rhubroma]

Meanwhile in Egypt:

The cynical machinations of a morally bankrupt regime in its death throws.

This has to stop. Now.

Well Mubarak said he want's to finish his mandate and see to the reestablishment of 'stability' by the next government.

Such violence, by the henchmen, is always the sign of desperation. Hopefully the reformists will resist this last assault on their cause.

 

[rhubroma]

Me reading your posts = wasting your time? Nah ....Noam Chomsky is more a waste of time but some of your posts resemble his positions. I guess that is because your a school teacher.

It is obvious you have had bad experience with your teachers and probably with your elders too, which is why you were so ill formed during those critical years when everybody has at least a fighting chance to develop into a thinking person, but you didn't. Having lost all hope of becoming a competent thinker who knew how to use his brain because of this lack of being around good teachers and caring elders, you have since always displayed the utmost insolence and hatred toward all teachers and elders, though this has nothing to do with the teaching profession as such, or being someone of experience; for which I can naturally take no offense to what you thought were rather humorous insults, even clever ones, to my found profession, though in reality were merely base and puerile.

To the contrary they only reiterated your tragic youthful experiences, for which I can only feel some sense of pity.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Well Mubarak said he want's to finish his mandate and see to the reestablishment of 'stability' by the next government.

Such violence, by the henchmen, is always the sign of desperation. Hopefully the reformists will resist this last assault on their cause.

I saw some quote...Probably "fox news" or "Rash Limbaugh" saying that Mubarak wants to die in Egypt. He will probably get his wish but not the way he envisioned.

Maybe President Obama can offer him refuge @ Camp David?

If he is not careful he will be traveling from country to country seeking refuge ...similar to Mohammad Rezā Shāh Pahlavi who had to have David Rockefeller beg President Carter to give him refuge for medical treatment. President Carter understood the situation and ultimately sent him and his wife packing to Panama. Where he was not to linger long because the New Iranian government requested extradition,,,,,,, because after all he was a despot who had been supported by the non Muslim western world. He ended up …..In Egypt with the protection of Anwar El-Sadat who when the Shah finally died of cancer was given an Egyptian State Funeral.

Nothing ever changes…………

 

[Semper Fidelis]

It is obvious you have had bad experience with your teachers and probably with your elders too, which is why you were so ill formed during those critical years when everybody has at least a fighting chance to develop into a thinking person, but you didn't. Having lost all hope of becoming a competent thinker who knew how to use his brain because of this lack of being around good teachers and caring elders, you have since always displayed the utmost insolence and hatred toward all teachers and elders, though this has nothing to do with the teaching profession as such, or being someone of experience; for which I can naturally take no offense to what you thought were rather humorous insults, even clever ones, to my found profession, though in reality were merely base and puerile.

To the contrary they only reiterated your tragic youthful experiences, for which I can only feel some sense of pity.

No worries. I am much like Scott So cal type. I like to drink good ale ----which in turn makes me reply without much competent thinking. I do not have hatred towards anyone.

 

[Hugh Januss]

No worries. I am much like Scott So cal type. I like to drink good ale ----which in turn makes me reply without much competent thinking. I do not have hatred towards anyone.

Have you been drinking already this morning?

 

[rhubroma]

I saw some quote...Probably "fox news" or "Rash Limbaugh" saying that Mubarak wants to die in Egypt. He will probably get his wish but not the way he envisioned.

Maybe President Obama can offer him refuge @ Camp David?

If he is not careful he will be traveling from country to country seeking refuge ...similar to Mohammad Rezā Shāh Pahlavi who had to have David Rockefeller beg President Carter to give him refuge for medical treatment. President Carter understood the situation and ultimately sent him and his wife packing to Panama. Where he was not to linger long because the New Iranian government requested extradition,,,,,,, because after all he was a despot who had been supported by the non Muslim western world. He ended up …..In Egypt with the protection of Anwar El-Sadat who when the Shah finally died of cancer was given an Egyptian State Funeral.

Nothing ever changes…………

Abulhassan Bani Sadr, first president of the Islamic Republic of Iran from exile in Paris speaks:

How do you explain the sudden fragility we have seen in Mabarak's regime of recent days?

"Dictators all have a common characteristic: inflexibility. However when society begins to rise up, such inflexibility becomes a weakness. Had Mubarak taken the initiative after the first protests, things could have worked out differently. But he responded too late and reduced the reforms to a change in personnel, while the people instead want to overhaul the system. The army began to comprehend the desire for vindication and, at that moment, took the people's side.

Mubarak, therefore, lost the weapon of military repression: how was this possible?

"Dictatorial regimes grow old and at a certain point no longer have an objective, if none other than sustaining themselves. Nasser had as an aim Arab nationalism, economic development, fighting corruption, Palestinian liberation. What's Mubarak's objective? Like Ben Ali, he doesn't have one and thus the fall is inevitable."

....so we see, in desperation, he's putiing up one last desperate offensive.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Have you been drinking already this morning?

Not yet. Since the rhubroma was up in my wheel house I needed to come up with something "humorous and clever".
Seriously I did not think my post indicated any hate towards his profession?
Hard to get out the Whisky Tango Village without having some intellectual keeping me down! (that was a joke)

 

[rhubroma]

No worries. I am much like Scott So cal type. I like to drink good ale ----which in turn makes me reply without much competent thinking. I do not have hatred towards anyone.

I hear you, and in fits of megalomania I actually think I have a point.

Otherwise, nothing. I just tap my head 'toc' 'toc' and its empty. So I tap it again 'toc' 'toc' and there's still nothing inside.

In fact, I have never really understood anything I've thought, let alone said, everything is a near miss, a futile approximation of comprehension. And it has always been this way as far back as I can remember.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Abulhassan Bani Sadr, first president of the Islamic Republic of Iran from exile in Paris speaks:

How do you explain the sudden fragility we have seen in Mabarak's regime of recent days?

"Dictators all have a common characteristic: inflexibility. However when society begins to rise up, such inflexibility becomes a weakness. Had Mubarak taken the initiative after the first protests, things could have worked out differently. But he responded too late and reduced the reforms to a change in personnel, while the people instead want to overhaul the system. The army began to comprehend the desire for vindication and, at that moment, took the people's side.

Mubarak, therefore, lost the weapon of military repression: how was this possible?

"Dictatorial regimes grow old and at a certain point no longer have an objective, if none other than sustaining themselves. Nasser had as an aim Arab nationalism, economic development, fighting corruption, Palestinian liberation. What's Mubarak's objective? Like Ben Ali, he doesn't have one and thus the fall is inevitable."

....so we see, in desperation, he's putiing up one last desperate offensive.

Just one tired despot leader who needs to go away. I bet he does have a objective now…..to save his 6 and keep as much money as possible.

 

[redtreviso]

Me reading your posts = wasting your time? Nah ....Noam Chomsky is more a waste of time but some of your posts resemble his positions. I guess that is because your a school teacher.

and youR not..obviously

 

[Semper Fidelis]

and youR not..obviously

so much fun when someone likes to point out grammar on a message board.

Can you HERE what I am posting? Don't you NO what is happening HEAR? I know it is hard WARE you live over THEIR.

 

[runninboy]

This profit issue you speak of, has not conditioned the medical profession here. I don't see any relevance to your point. Also because it isn't as if under a public health care system, there is a shortage of bright minds seeking a medical career. Not so in Italy, France, Spain, Germany, Belgium, Holland, Denmark, England, Greece, Portugal and the other remaining EU nations.

I merely have argued that it should not be the exclusive option, in a system which first lacks a public structure paid for by the collective tax pool. America has chosen to have things just this way, because of its fervent obedience to the capitalist ideology of a hyper-individualism with no sense of social responsibility, especially among the conservative class but not only. Though we have seen how this isn't merely the case, which at least provides some hope.

Frankly the entire debate from Europe's perspective seems bizarre and incomprehensible in the utmost, as if how could any developed country not have a viable public health care system first, before the private option?

IME experience England has or at least had a private insurance structure in place. I know of no one who would dare go to the National insurance dentists for example. While the doctors in the National system were not always the worst, in a general sense the best & the brightest went into the private system. The national system was filled with immigrant doctors who would agree to work for lower wages in exchange for being allowed to immigrate.
I have personal experiences with socialized medicine in Scandinavia where the system is paid for with heavy taxation. In Norway one of the richest per capita countries in the world thanks to oil reserves and small population, the benefits have had to have be reduced despite the great amount of money put into the system.
Canada? US surgeons are making a fortune in border cities due to the Canadians that come across to pay out of pocket for surgery that is
"elective" in their home country. Knee replacements apparently are not neccessary to ones good health. You can wait years for chemo treatments in England. the list goes on forever. Socialized medicine doesn't work the way people tend to portray it.
What is worse about america?
While we don't have socialized medicine per se, we do make hospitals treat everyone regardless of their ability to pay. That is the law and it is posted in every hospital. In addition Medicare & medicaid allow people access to care at little to no cost.
I have a friend who is a critical care nurse. Some gang members come in and require very expensive treatment for gunshot wounds, lots of blood used , expensive surgeons, hours in the emergency room, all at no cost to the individual. Some of these guys have come in multiple times and racked up hundreds of thousands of dollars of care at no cost.
at the same hospital they mentioned a man who had a drinking problem, he was able to come in monthly for dialysis for no cost. tens of thousands of dollars of care monthly provided for free.
that is the law.
So taxpayers here in America do pay for healthcare and people receive it.
It is the best system i have found.
However it is probably not for the doctors. Looking at my mothers medicare statement her doctor is reimbursed at the rate of about 5 McDonald happy meals for a visit. If the Obama care were to stand and if Happy meals remain steady he will get 3-4 happy meals. Considering his landlord and other creditors take thousands of happy meals a month i don't know how he can remain in business and continue to provide the care at this level. Not really fair to balance the budget on the doctors, pretty soon US doctors will go the way of england, longer waits. less choice. Die while you are waiting for your chemo to be approved. Oh well you were old anyway...

Just to be fair i should mention that i hold a National insurance card for Britain. I could get my healthcare for free but instead choose to pay money here in the US for care.

 

[fatandfast]

Oh but seriously...f him..The access to government/private insurance funds are more why such things as Lens Crafters are in business at all compared to what they actually do.

Yea you are right F him and his wife and kid. He should have know that all that night school while racing cat1 and the huge cash investment was a waste of time. And double f@#k all those kids that he fits with glasses so they can play outside and go to school..what a complete waste of time..he should have been a stock broker or lobbyist. I forwarded your response and he will probably read it and fold his tent and open up a worthwhile franchise like Chipotle or Midas Muffler or maybe Dunkin Donuts to greater benefit society. I added a personal note that when he discovers early eye disorders during office exams that it's not worth anything!!I mean after all it should be done at home with an eye chart that is easily available online. Thanks for putting down your tool bag long enough to set me straight

 

[runninboy]

In fact, it's true.

I had this experience, not too long ago, with a medic from the US who works in the emergency room department in a prominent hospital in Atlanta who also has had administration experience.

In the US private insurance solicits business from the hospitals by enticing them with retributions for taking their clients as patients. I honestly didn't get into the specifics of this, though he certainly was in the know. So that for an appendectomy that would normally cost say 15 k, a deal is made so that the insurance provider pays the hospital instead $500 on its clients' bills. Now when an uninsured patient needs the same treatment, the hospital naturally charges him the full 15 k, which, of course, he can't pay. He thus has to take out a loan through the hospital

The perversion of this is so evident that nothing else needs to be said.

Socialized health care eliminates this needles exploitation for profit.

this post is a flat out lie and what you mention is illegal behaviour. Hospitals cannot require you to take out aloan to pay for service. The law is you are treated regardless of your ability to pay. If you have little money admitting will steer you towards government agencies who pay for your care such as Medicaid, Medical etc. Posts like this just heap lie upon lie.
Here is a personal example, i got a small settlement in a car accident i owed much in hospital bills. I was worried but my lawyer said"no problem" he called the hospital while i was in the room and it literally took less than a couple minutes
"Yes i have my client in the room, we negotiated a settlement of $29,000 total for his accident but he has over $15,000 of bills with you and he has no health insurance. What would you guys take to settle the bill? $2,500. Sounds good, send us the papers. thanks."

I felt bad but the attorney told me the hospitals are usually thrilled to receive anything as most people simply stiff them and they have no practical recourse under the law.My 2500 was roughly in line with insurance/government reimbursement.

If the hospitals required loans to pay for healthcare they would be rich and also in violation of the law.

 

[redtreviso]

Yea you are right F him and his wife and kid. He should have know that all that night school while racing cat1 and the huge cash investment was a waste of time. And double f@#k all those kids that he fits with glasses so they can play outside and go to school..what a complete waste of time..he should have been a stock broker or lobbyist. I forwarded your response and he will probably read it and fold his tent and open up a worthwhile franchise like Chipotle or Midas Muffler or maybe Dunkin Donuts to greater benefit society. I added a personal note that when he discovers early eye disorders during office exams that it's not worth anything!!I mean after all it should be done at home with an eye chart that is easily available online. Thanks for putting down your tool bag long enough to set me straight

He's not a victim...please.. If there is some paperwork for putting 50 dollar glasses on a senior and charging medicare 350 dollars so be it. Perhaps a lenscrafter franchisee is just not the AMG thing he was hoping for. Yes f him and the horse he rode in on.

 

[redtreviso]

I felt bad but the attorney told me the hospitals are usually thrilled to receive anything as most people simply stiff them and they have no practical recourse under the law.My 2500 was roughly in line with insurance/government reimbursement.

You are out of your little megadittos mind.. Hospitals do everything they can to only treat the insured..Even in an emergency an ambulance will be pointed to a county facility unless they know the patient has insurance..For the uninsured that need an appendectomy or a kidney stone removed they MIGHT get started for 10 grand (they'll gladly take Visa)and bill you for another 20. They might come off 5 or 7 grand but will ruin your credit and call you everyday for the rest.."Some people just don't pay" they will say about why the bill is so much..So where do you sign up to just be one that doesn't pay?

and one other thing.. You can bet that for the 30 grand appendectomy that they would settle for 10 on, but the patient manages to not pay they wright off a 30 grand loss. They can probably hide their entire profit structure at 30 cents on the dollar.

 

[Anonymous]

Sorry, I didn't ask what you think we shouldn't do, I asked what you think we should do. Do you see the difference there?

I see the difference.

There are many problems with our healthcare system... mostly revolving around cost and access (which usually can be attributed, at least in part, to cost).

The first thing I would do is lift (some) regulations on insurance companies allowing them design health policies similar to the way auto insurance can be "customized". The idea being some coverage is better than none.

Secondly, if we are going to stipulate that healthcare is a basic right of an 'enlightened' society then the trial lawyers need to be kept on a very short leash.

Third, revisit mandatory ER care for non-life threatening situations. I think if insurance coverage is relatively inexpensive most people will get on board with it voluntarily and especially if there are financial consequences for showing up to the ER with a cold.

There literally are dozens of things that can be done but were never addressed because the intent of the current bill is to cause the eventual collapse of private insurance, thus paving the way for a single payor government entitlement.

 

[redtreviso]

Settled for 2 BILLION.. means they probably stole 20 BILLION.



"""HCA was founded in 1968 by Thomas Frist, his son Dr. Frist and Jack Massey, the owner of the Kentucky Fried Chicken food chain. The company became a pioneer in the field of publicly traded hospital chains. But in 1989, the younger Frist engineered a $5.1 billion LBO, putting HCA in private hands. A few years later, Frist took it public again.

In the late 1990s, government regulators cracked down on what they perceived to be HCA's aggressive business practices. HCA eventually settled with the government, paying close to $2 billion to settle claims of Medicare fraud and other alleged abuses. """"

 

[patricknd]

You are out of your little megadittos mind.. Hospitals do everything they can to only treat the insured..Even in an emergency an ambulance will be pointed to a county facility unless they know the patient has insurance..For the uninsured that need an appendectomy or a kidney stone removed they MIGHT get started for 10 grand (they'll gladly take Visa)and bill you for another 20. They might come off 5 or 7 grand but will ruin your credit and call you everyday for the rest.."Some people just don't pay" they will say about why the bill is so much..So where do you sign up to just be one that doesn't pay?

and one other thing.. You can bet that for the 30 grand appendectomy that they would settle for 10 on, but the patient manages to not pay they wright off a 30 grand loss. They can probably hide their entire profit structure at 30 cents on the dollar.

not a teacher, obviously.....

 

[Anonymous]

not a teacher, obviously.....

Live by the sword, die by the the sword.

 

[runninboy]

You are out of your little megadittos mind.. Hospitals do everything they can to only treat the insured..Even in an emergency an ambulance will be pointed to a county facility unless they know the patient has insurance..For the uninsured that need an appendectomy or a kidney stone removed they MIGHT get started for 10 grand (they'll gladly take Visa)and bill you for another 20. They might come off 5 or 7 grand but will ruin your credit and call you everyday for the rest.."Some people just don't pay" they will say about why the bill is so much..So where do you sign up to just be one that doesn't pay?

and one other thing.. You can bet that for the 30 grand appendectomy that they would settle for 10 on, but the patient manages to not pay they wright off a 30 grand loss. They can probably hide their entire profit structure at 30 cents on the dollar.

OK so what you just wrote would be a huge exposure of liability to the hospital besides being illegal. Risking tens of millions of dollars as well as being in violation of the law to save a few grand ...Not saying it might not happen but if you think that is SOP, wow. Ok.
I won't get into the the other issues, but if you think you need to give someone a visa to get a procedure
Ok....this is where i exit.

 

[Anonymous]

OK so what you just wrote would be a huge exposure of liability to the hospital besides being illegal. Risking tens of millions of dollars as well as being in violation of the law to save a few grand ...Not saying it might not happen but if you think that is SOP, wow. Ok.
I won't get into the the other issues, but if you think you need to give someone a visa to get a procedure
Ok....this is where i exit.

Look, it was on the daily kos so it must be true.