World Politics

[ChrisE]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44218846/ns/politics/

If some of you care to remember, the reduction in SS taxes last year as a "compromise" between the two nutjob political parties in this country, was something I stated would be a contentious issue from this point on.

According to this link, the Republicans are the ones that are shying away from extending them, or at least not openly saying to. It is of course Obama that will accelerate the demise of SS by promoting the extension. He does this to score political points with people he should not have to be scoring political points with. Because he is an idiotic *****, or a wolf in sheep's clothing which I have tossed out in the past.

I would imagine the wingnuts are a little confused at this point about whether to raise the taxes on the poor (wink wink) or contribute to killing SS. How would a good Republican choose between such two erection-inducing choices?

 

[Semper Fidelis]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44218846/ns/politics/

If some of you care to remember, the reduction in SS taxes last year as a "compromise" between the two nutjob political parties in this country, was something I stated would be a contentious issue from this point on.

According to this link, the Republicans are the ones that are shying away from extending them, or at least not openly saying to. It is of course Obama that will accelerate the demise of SS by promoting the extension. He does this to score political points with people he should not have to be scoring political points with. Because he is an idiotic *****, or a wolf in sheep's clothing which I have tossed out in the past.

I would imagine the wingnuts are a little confused at this point about whether to raise the taxes on the poor (wink wink) or contribute to killing SS. How would a good Republican choose between such two erection-inducing choices?

SS demise is something that could be averted in my opinion. As you say probably this is what the politicians want maybe because they fear the day any political party will have to announce that SS will no work any longer.

I like your link about Moody and the questionable ratings "system" they use. We have to look no further than the last 2 weeks with the NYSE to understand that many people made money of of the happenings that began on Aug 8.

Hey Chris check up-thread where a few folks are wishing for some type of riots in the US. Lots and lots of lost hatters out in the USA and the world.

 

[Amsterhammer]

WoW...thats like more than once you have made some disparaging xenophobic remark about people you do not even know. Are all people living in South Texas holding the views which you have or are suggesting to force on them?

The trouble is that there are a great number of "loony" left wing nut jobs that make any "conservatives" in the US look like ??????

Jeez Glenn, kep your shirt on. I clearly said "or similar". I can assure you that I didn't dream up the 'Rep. of South Texas' either, I saw it in some nut-job's diatribe (I would post the link if I could remember where). Any out of the way backwoods corner would do for the purpose of getting rid of, and isolating, this substantial minority that continues to (and will continue to until they die) thwart any and all attempts at meaningful social, fiscal or political reform. I'm talking about people, for example, who actually take the likes of Palin and Bachmann seriously as participants in the political process. I'm also talking about an extremely right wing, christian, Dubya clone from Texas being touted as the best Republican candidate for the next election. I despair at the way in which the US is unable, and evidently unwilling, to divorce religion from politics. Religion has NO PLACE in 21st century politics. Nobody in Europe gives a toss if a candidate is a member of an established religion or not, or if he goes to church every Sunday, or which church he attends. Religion should not mix with politics. Period. (Politics and Islam is an entirely different can of worms.)

Your final sentence so perfectly illustrates what I'm trying to get across. The people whom your side (I presume from your statement that you are one of 'them') labels as the 'loony left' in the current US context, would be considered mere moderates in other western democracies. The fact that the right in the US cannot understand this just proves my point - US right wing dominated politics are so dramatically far out of touch with any sort of 'normal' reality, that there simply is no room left for any meaningful dialog. The loony US right is so far to the right of any reasonable political spectrum, that it's already fallen off the edge. The loony US right is an ongoing danger to the country, and to the world, and for the good of everyone who does not feel a part of this loony right, these people should be isolated and excised.

 

[Amsterhammer]

Remember Romania? Remember the Berlin wall falling? Remember the downfall of Saddam?

The culmination of another popular uprising against a disgraced and unstable tyrant is happening live on your screens right now!

Gaddafi's elite troops have melted away along with all the other vestiges of his previous power - there is no resistance to the forces of liberation - two of his sons have been detained - tens of thousands of ecstatic people in the streets.

One thing I've always wondered though - all those celebratory shots into the air, where do they come down, and what if one hit you on the head on its way down?

 

[ChrisE]

SS demise is something that could be averted in my opinion. As you say probably this is what the politicians want maybe because they fear the day any political party will have to announce that SS will no work any longer.

I like your link about Moody and the questionable ratings "system" they use. We have to look no further than the last 2 weeks with the NYSE to understand that many people made money of of the happenings that began on Aug 8.

Hey Chris check up-thread where a few folks are wishing for some type of riots in the US. Lots and lots of lost hatters out in the USA and the world.

It can be averted easily. My proposal would be to raise the maximum level taxed (it is now like $106k) and maybe back off the indexing for early retirement.

I don't believe the tax will ever go back to where it was and thus SS will be in a crisis much earlier than the projected 2035 or whenever. That will lead to privatization, which is the goal of the monied interests in this country. The bend over Dems will shrug their shoulders and act like victims in some sort of compromise, while receiving campaign contributions from those that would benefit. I do not believe historic returns on the stock market will continue, thus throwing the whole clusterfark into chaos.

As for the riots, people can wish all they want. This is no watershed moment in the US like civil rights, or oppression. Everybody can vote, everybody has the same rights as everybody else. People have the power to change what is going on but they are too stupid to (see my comments a week or two ago about voting for either pary).

I mean WTF are people gonna riot for? It is their own fault, though hypocrisy is not a rare trait in the average American voter.

 

[rhubroma]

What's most curious about the American democracy in the midst of system crisis is the apparent complete lack of will of the emerging generation to protest. Is it apathy or insolence?

Even as the political class through all the privatization mania, financial capitalism deficit craziness and military spending that has crippled politics, as well as ensured that the next generation in the country will have no future, they sit about idle.

This is why the British youth have set London ablaze over a future that's being ruthlessly denied them by economic neo-liberalism, even if there were no doubt hired thugs to turn the attention away from facts from which a myopic and wholly self-serving political establishment wants the rest of the upset masses to not analyze. Just make them scared of all the disorder.

I ask myself how much of this ruthless dismantling of the state and erosion of the middle classes, while the private banks and the plutocracy receive every benefit from the public as imposed upon them by government, will it take before we get the much needed democratic protests to electrify a dying US corpse?

Or at least something other than the evangelical prayer gatherings in Texas to ask for divine economic deliverance? No protests, just prayer. While the rest of the civil world looks much more like a Libya or a London in foment, the governor of Texas, and White House aspirant, is praying for the economy - but the 21st century youth of the country sit about idle, doing nothing, or at least nothing useful in the democratic sense. America is a very queer place indeed.

 

[ChrisE]

You think the punks in London are justified? I don't, they need their collective azzes kicked, and I have zero sympathy for them whatever their reason is.

In a democracy, people protest with their vote. That is what sets people apart from animals.

Agreed on the nutjob religious gatherings. I think somebody said awhile back in here that a total nutjob getting elected that really causes the US to get azzraped is what is required, ie a "burn the house down and rebuild" scenario. Until the two party political system changes (there is nothing really different between the two except social issues that have zero impact on the economic well being of the population) then it will still be a downward spiral. The world has survived these things before, and empires come and go. What I don't like are religious nuts, of any persuasion, with their finger on the nuclear button.

 

[gregod]

...

In a democracy, people protest with their vote. That is what sets people apart from animals.

...

the founders of the US republic recognized that at times, even in a democracy, politicians are not responsive to the electorate. and when this happens, there will be a need and obligation for mass demonstrations. that is why the freedom to assemble is protected in the constitution.

right now politicians on both sides of the atlantic are only afraid of big business. only when they are afraid of the citizens will they respond to the bests interests of the country and prevent further unrest.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

The initial protesters in London were right to protest, on the first day or so. The idiots that rioted after that deserve nothing more than what's coming to them from the heavy hand of the law.

As I noted before, the GOP convention next year will likely see protests or riots on par with London. I'd say the Dem convention too, but it's afterwards.

Amsterhammer - You really need to look at a district voting map of the US. The South Texas/Brownsville area of the state is where most of the independent Democrats are (see below). Most of these precincts voted for Obama, and tend to slightly vote Democrat in other elections, as do Austin, San Antonio (the "liberal" cities in TX), but also El Paso, Dallas and Houston even. Continually bringing up "Texas" makes you look as ignorant as those you criticize. You can go to places like eastern Oregon (a fairly blue state) and find people more conservative people than in many parts of Texas. If you want to rail against Rick Perry, I say go for it, be my guest. But don't clump in every person in the state of Texas with him. Perry only won with 55% of the vote, and just 2.7 million votes, in a state with 24 million people, and 17 million eligible to vote. Meaning well over 10 million people didn't even bother to vote, likely because their choices were so awful.

Many people in the US are well aware of what's going on in Libya. We aren't all close minded dolts who only watch Fox News. I'd say a good 2/3 of the country wants the US to get entirely out of the middle east, now. Libya, Iraq, Afghanistan, all of it. Get out as fast as possible. Problem is oil influences and monied powers that be disagree, and they own the place.

As to global perception of US conservatism, I understand. In travels abroad it's startling how conservative I appear to people there. I would probably fit into most conservative parties in Europe. Even though many conservatives here label me a liberal.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Jeez Glenn, kep your shirt on. I clearly said "or similar". I can assure you that I didn't dream up the 'Rep. of South Texas' either, I saw it in some nut-job's diatribe (I would post the link if I could remember where). Any out of the way backwoods corner would do for the purpose of getting rid of, and isolating, this substantial minority that continues to (and will continue to until they die) thwart any and all attempts at meaningful social, fiscal or political reform. I'm talking about people, for example, who actually take the likes of Palin and Bachmann seriously as participants in the political process. I'm also talking about an extremely right wing, christian, Dubya clone from Texas being touted as the best Republican candidate for the next election. I despair at the way in which the US is unable, and evidently unwilling, to divorce religion from politics. Religion has NO PLACE in 21st century politics. Nobody in Europe gives a toss if a candidate is a member of an established religion or not, or if he goes to church every Sunday, or which church he attends. Religion should not mix with politics. Period. (Politics and Islam is an entirely different can of worms.)

Your final sentence so perfectly illustrates what I'm trying to get across. The people whom your side (I presume from your statement that you are one of 'them') labels as the 'loony left' in the current US context, would be considered mere moderates in other western democracies. The fact that the right in the US cannot understand this just proves my point - US right wing dominated politics are so dramatically far out of touch with any sort of 'normal' reality, that there simply is no room left for any meaningful dialog. The loony US right is so far to the right of any reasonable political spectrum, that it's already fallen off the edge. The loony US right is an ongoing danger to the country, and to the world, and for the good of everyone who does not feel a part of this loony right, these people should be isolated and excised.

Do you know anything about the Irish / IRA and England? Northern Ireland ring any bells? What I bolded in your post shows you have some type of issue with the USA. What about the folks up in Spain you know the ones that love cycling so much? Get a grip.

Um No I just wanted to point out or suggest that you may be one of the loony that your hate is directed. Just a thought.

 

[rhubroma]

You think the punks in London are justified? I don't, they need their collective azzes kicked, and I have zero sympathy for them whatever their reason is.

In a democracy, people protest with their vote. That is what sets people apart from animals.

Agreed on the nutjob religious gatherings. I think somebody said awhile back in here that a total nutjob getting elected that really causes the US to get azzraped is what is required, ie a "burn the house down and rebuild" scenario. Until the two party political system changes (there is nothing really different between the two except social issues that have zero impact on the economic well being of the population) then it will still be a downward spiral. The world has survived these things before, and empires come and go. What I don't like are religious nuts, of any persuasion, with their finger on the nuclear button.

Oh what a thoroughly bourgeois world you live in. You remind me of how scandalized and frightened the so called civil hypocrites who read Murdock's drivel and falsities have become during this time of social unrest.

The only thing I hold sacrosanct is the democratic right to protest, otherwise democracy is reduced to a form of tyranny of whichever establishment (it matters little that it was voted in by a relative majority) can exercise the necessary pressure to bear in setting the national agenda.

Now we can discuss the methods and objectives, while resorting to pure vandalism rather than using the intellect is always counterproductive in the best sense - and passes you from right to wrong in the worst: however, to dismiss the London protests as simply the fruit of an anarchic barbarism, or just a terrorist demonstration against civil society perpetrated by uncivil "punks," is exactly what the ruling establishment there wants the generally reticent and docile population to think. So while many indeed behaved like animals, which is a shame, the movement itself (if not its actions) was spawned by a quite justified civil discontent.

Indeed lets just kick all there a$$es for once and for all.

If such protests, however, are simply condemned by the state as illegal acts of thuggery as it has done, without any critical attempt to understand their dramatic underlying cause in real and not just perceived social anxiety over the future of millions, then the political class will have demonstrated once again just how out of touch with the nation it has become, whose well-being it was elected to safeguard, and its acting in the interests of an non-voted, cynical elite ultra-rich and powerful business class of uber-capitaists that only cares of its own wealth and privileges.

Not only is this politically irresponsible in a democracy, but stupid. Whereas voting alone, I think at least we can agree on this, has for a long time resulted now in a totally ineffective way toward much needed change and reform. As you yourself have pointed out the Obama case is a glaring example of how feeble the vote as producer of real change has become. Indeed when has this ever been so? With so much at stake, at times a vote is not sufficient.

 

[Anonymous]

Central Banking, Fractional Reserve Banking, Too Big to Fail.... House of Cards.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-08-21/wall-street-aristocracy-got-1-2-trillion-in-fed-s-secret-loans.html

Fed Chairman Ben S. Bernanke’s unprecedented effort to keep the economy from plunging into depression included lending banks and other companies as much as $1.2 trillion of public money, about the same amount U.S. homeowners currently owe on 6.5 million delinquent and foreclosed mortgages. The largest borrower, Morgan Stanley (MS), got as much as $107.3 billion, while Citigroup took $99.5 billion and Bank of America $91.4 billion, according to a Bloomberg News compilation of data obtained through Freedom of Information Act requests, months of litigation and an act of Congress.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Oh what a thoroughly bourgeois world you live in. You remind me of how scandalized and frightened the so called civil hypocrites who read Murdock's drivel and falsities have become during this time of social unrest.

The only thing I hold sacrosanct is the democratic right to protest, otherwise democracy is reduced to a form of tyranny of whichever establishment (it matters little that it was voted in by a relative majority) can exercise the necessary pressure to bear in setting the national agenda.

Now we can discuss the methods and objectives, while resorting to pure vandalism rather than using the intellect is always counterproductive in the best sense - and passes you from right to wrong in the worst: however, to dismiss the London protests as simply the fruit of an anarchic barbarism, or just a terrorist demonstration against civil society perpetrated by uncivil "punks," is exactly what the ruling establishment there wants the generally reticent and docile population to think. So while many indeed behaved like animals, which is a shame, the movement itself (if not its actions) was spawned by a quite justified civil discontent.

Indeed lets just kick all there a$$es for once and for all.

If such protests, however, are simply condemned by the state as illegal acts of thuggery as it has done, without any critical attempt to understand their dramatic underlying cause in real and not just perceived social anxiety over the future of millions, then the political class will have demonstrated once again just how out of touch with the nation it has become, whose well-being it was elected to safeguard, and its acting in the interests of an non-voted, cynical elite ultra-rich and powerful business class of uber-capitaists that only cares of its own wealth and privileges.

Not only is this politically irresponsible in a democracy, but stupid. Whereas voting alone, I think at least we can agree on this, has for a long time resulted now in a totally ineffective way toward much needed change and reform. As you yourself have pointed out the Obama case is a glaring example of how feeble the vote as producer of real change has become. Indeed when has this ever been so? With so much at stake, at times a vote is not sufficient.

There is a huge difference between a protest against government and the thief’s and hood rats that came out in London. If they were protesting against the rights of an accused criminals treatment and death (police misconduct), then I would say that is completely within the rights of the community this happened. What was happening around England was different from what we were told here in the USA. We saw a bunch of hood’s beating up children and stealing from them. We saw hoods burning shops that had nothing to do with the police misconduct. The only excuse these hoods gave was that they were taking a piece of their taxes back etc. They were not taking it out on the government but actual shop owners. That is a collective FAIL on their conduct. They deserve the punishment now. They also deserved to have their asses kicked in by the police.

You say it was civil discontent. What besides the guy being killed by the police was their discontent? Was it because they were not getting enough FREE help from the government? They looked healthy and clothed. In my opinion some of them looked quite FAT.

 

[rhubroma]

There is a huge difference between a protest against government and the thief’s and hood rats that came out in London. If they were protesting against the rights of an accused criminals treatment and death (police misconduct), then I would say that is completely within the rights of the community this happened. What was happening around England was different from what we were told here in the USA. We saw a bunch of hood’s beating up children and stealing from them. We saw hoods burning shops that had nothing to do with the police misconduct. The only excuse these hoods gave was that they were taking a piece of their taxes back etc. They were not taking it out on the government but actual shop owners. That is a collective FAIL on their conduct. They deserve the punishment now. They also deserved to have their asses kicked in by the police.

You say it was civil discontent. What besides the guy being killed by the police was their discontent? Was it because they were not getting enough FREE help from the government? They looked healthy and clothed. In my opinion some of them looked quite FAT.

The black-hoods were only the uncivil (and most sensationalized in the mass media) aspect of a protest rooted in an economic climate that is all too predicated upon not not providing the "FREE help," as your misguided assumption suggested, but the basic services and rights the taxpayer has earned in democracy.

And this is the result of an economic system and political ideology that has progressively widened the margin between the wealthy and the rest of society, while nullifying social programs, which has been developing in England since the Thatcher years. All in the name of so called market competition.

In addition the emerging society looks toward a future that the political class seems not to care anything about, and in fact even seems to legislate wholesale against, while catering to the banks and the financial markets and the neo-liberal mission.

The vandalism, while condemnable, should not be used as a mere propagandistic tool to not address politically the entire underlying issue which the protest raised.

 

[fatandfast]

The black-hoods were only the uncivil (and most sensationalized in the mass media) aspect of a protest rooted in an economic climate that is all too predicated upon not not providing the "FREE help," as your misguided assumption suggested, but the basic services and rights the taxpayer has earned in democracy.

And this is the result of an economic system and political ideology that has progressively widened the margin between the wealthy and the rest of society, while nullifying social programs, which has been developing in England since the Thatcher years. All in the name of so called market competition.

In addition the emerging society looks toward a future that the political class seems not to care anything about, and in fact even seems to legislate wholesale against, while catering to the banks and the financial markets and the neo-liberal mission.

Again your post is littered with misplaced ideals. The police, the same ones accused of misconduct, are tasked with protecting the citizens while waiting for due process. If the cops unjustly shot a guy, there is a mechanism in place. If you protest that process buy burning a single mom out of her home, burning somebody's car, looting a small business, the police should not try and follow your logic of association. Burning somebody's flat totally unrelated can't be tolerated.
If you go into the street to send a message to the government about poor economic outlook or feeling of general neglect and some of your fellow marchers have ball bats,clubs, molitov cocktails and are wearing masks they police should assume that you accept their techniques and take appropriate action. As fires are set or used at all , the police should assume that you are trying to murder somebody if you start their house on fire

If you are against banks,financial services. or the lack of government support and you do so by destroying a Turkish, ****-Indian business. You should be dealt with harshly, no rubber bullets, or water cannon. If you are a 20 year old standing next to a hunk of human trash in order to have cutting edge video phone coverage of some rebel action please don't cry fowl when you are raped, burned, shot, killed, disfigured. If anybody expects the police to sort thru who is standing around in the middle of one of these situations is absurd if you are not running from looting and fires the police should assume you endorse it . A social protester w a lit torch should is no social protester

I total agree with you about protest, just understand that one of the outcomes could be death

 

[Amsterhammer]

Amsterhammer - You really need to look at a district voting map of the US. The South Texas/Brownsville area of the state is where most of the independent Democrats are (see below). Most of these precincts voted for Obama, and tend to slightly vote Democrat in other elections, as do Austin, San Antonio (the "liberal" cities in TX), but also El Paso, Dallas and Houston even. Continually bringing up "Texas" makes you look as ignorant as those you criticize. You can go to places like eastern Oregon (a fairly blue state) and find people more conservative people than in many parts of Texas. If you want to rail against Rick Perry, I say go for it, be my guest. But don't clump in every person in the state of Texas with him. Perry only won with 55% of the vote, and just 2.7 million votes, in a state with 24 million people, and 17 million eligible to vote. Meaning well over 10 million people didn't even bother to vote, likely because their choices were so awful.

Many people in the US are well aware of what's going on in Libya. We aren't all close minded dolts who only watch Fox News. I'd say a good 2/3 of the country wants the US to get entirely out of the middle east, now. Libya, Iraq, Afghanistan, all of it. Get out as fast as possible. Problem is oil influences and monied powers that be disagree, and they own the place.

As to global perception of US conservatism, I understand. In travels abroad it's startling how conservative I appear to people there. I would probably fit into most conservative parties in Europe. Even though many conservatives here label me a liberal.

Alpe - you (and others) really need to stop taking things so incredibly literally! I have mentioned 'Texas' a total of two times in my recent posts. This last time, I even added 'or similar' to make it clear that I wasn't necessarily talking about Texas, or south Texas specifically, but anywhere out of the way, as I hope the rest of my text made clear with regard to getting rid of and isolating the worst loonies. The fact that there are now 'liberal' voting cities and other enclaves of enlightenment in what has traditionally been seen as a center of conservatism, is entirely irrelevant to my point. But thanks for the neat little map. Again, I stated that I hadn't made up the 'Rep. of South Texas' but had read it somewhere.

Accuse me of using a stereotype, and I will tell you you're right. As I hope all readers here will be aware, the 'Texas' stereotype that is commonly accepted in the rest of the world is a place which is the traditional home of red-neck, right-wing values, and that's the only reason I used it, not because I have any particular issue with Texans. I did not make it up, either!

Again Alpe, how many people out of the eligible voters of Texas actually voted for Perry is entirely irrelevant to the wider (certainly global) public perception, which is -

Another conservative, Christian, 10-year governor of the same state that gave the world Dubya. This is a prospect that fills me, and many other others, with dread, regardless of whether or not Perry is a Bush clone.

Do you know anything about the Irish / IRA and England? Northern Ireland ring any bells? What I bolded in your post shows you have some type of issue with the USA. What about the folks up in Spain you know the ones that love cycling so much? Get a grip.

Um No I just wanted to point out or suggest that you may be one of the loony that your hate is directed. Just a thought.

Um Glenn, yes I do happen to know something about the N. Ireland situation as I lived in the UK for 18 years while 'the troubles' were going on. I know rather less, though still enough, about the Basques to know that both of your examples are irrelevant to the part of my text that you bolded.

I presume you will be honest enough to concede that there are large areas of the US where no politician of either party can get elected unless they publicly proclaim their religious fervor and beliefs, as well as their love of God and the United States. This was my point, this does not happen in Europe because the average voter simply could care less whether or not their candidate goes to church on Sunday. And yes, there are minor exceptions to this where religious conservatives only vote for the party that represents their own religious beliefs, but these are tiny and of no political significance whatsoever.The fact that both Catholics and Protestants in N.I. will (by and large) vote for candidates who share their own religion is a specific historical anomaly. The Basque's desire for independence from Spain has very little, if anything, to do with religion.

If the cops unjustly shot a guy, there is a mechanism in place.

Without wishing to enter the great riot debate, I should just point out that there have been more than 300 deaths in UK police custody since the turn of the century. Not one policeman has been succesfully prosecuted for any of these deaths. Presumably, they were all accidents.

 

[rhubroma]

The black-hoods were only the uncivil (and most sensationalized in the mass media) aspect of a protest rooted in an economic climate that is all too predicated upon not not providing the "FREE help," as your misguided assumption suggested, but the basic services and rights the taxpayer has earned in democracy.

And this is the result of an economic system and political ideology that has progressively widened the margin between the wealthy and the rest of society, while nullifying social programs, which has been developing in England since the Thatcher years. All in the name of so called market competition.

In addition the emerging society looks toward a future that the political class seems not to care anything about, and in fact even seems to legislate wholesale against, while catering to the banks and the financial markets and the neo-liberal mission.

Again your post is littered with misplaced ideals. The police, the same ones accused of misconduct, are tasked with protecting the citizens while waiting for due process. If the cops unjustly shot a guy, there is a mechanism in place. If you protest that process buy burning a single mom out of her home, burning somebody's car, looting a small business, the police should not try and follow your logic of association. Burning somebody's flat totally unrelated can't be tolerated.
If you go into the street to send a message to the government about poor economic outlook or feeling of general neglect and some of your fellow marchers have ball bats,clubs, molitov cocktails and are wearing masks they police should assume that you accept their techniques and take appropriate action. As fires are set or used at all , the police should assume that you are trying to murder somebody if you start their house on fire

If you are against banks,financial services. or the lack of government support and you do so by destroying a Turkish, ****-Indian business. You should be dealt with harshly, no rubber bullets, or water cannon. If you are a 20 year old standing next to a hunk of human trash in order to have cutting edge video phone coverage of some rebel action please don't cry fowl when you are raped, burned, shot, killed, disfigured. If anybody expects the police to sort thru who is standing around in the middle of one of these situations is absurd if you are not running from looting and fires the police should assume you endorse it . A social protester w a lit torch should is no social protester

I total agree with you about protest, just understand that one of the outcomes could be death

The fascist elements were a form of collateral social damage to such protests.

They stole the show, as is usually the case, in a manner of speaking.

Points well taken, for this reason I don't think of my ideas as inherently misplaced. As were the inherent stimuli behind the protests.

 

[Anonymous]

Alpe - you (and others) really need to stop taking things so incredibly literally! I have mentioned 'Texas' a total of two times in my recent posts. This last time, I even added 'or similar' to make it clear that I wasn't necessarily talking about Texas, or south Texas specifically, but anywhere out of the way, as I hope the rest of my text made clear with regard to getting rid of and isolating the worst loonies. The fact that there are now 'liberal' voting cities and other enclaves of enlightenment in what has traditionally been seen as a center of conservatism, is entirely irrelevant to my point. But thanks for the neat little map. Again, I stated that I hadn't made up the 'Rep. of South Texas' but had read it somewhere.

Accuse me of using a stereotype, and I will tell you you're right. As I hope all readers here will be aware, the 'Texas' stereotype that is commonly accepted in the rest of the world is a place which is the traditional home of red-neck, right-wing values, and that's the only reason I used it, not because I have any particular issue with Texans. I did not make it up, either!

Again Alpe, how many people out of the eligible voters of Texas actually voted for Perry is entirely irrelevant to the wider (certainly global) public perception, which is -

Another conservative, Christian, 10-year governor of the same state that gave the world Dubya. This is a prospect that fills me, and many other others, with dread, regardless of whether or not Perry is a Bush clone.



Um Glenn, yes I do happen to know something about the N. Ireland situation as I lived in the UK for 18 years while 'the troubles' were going on. I know rather less, though still enough, about the Basques to know that both of your examples are irrelevant to the part of my text that you bolded.

I presume you will be honest enough to concede that there are large areas of the US where no politician of either party can get elected unless they publicly proclaim their religious fervor and beliefs, as well as their love of God and the United States. This was my point, this does not happen in Europe because the average voter simply could care less whether or not their candidate goes to church on Sunday. And yes, there are minor exceptions to this where religious conservatives only vote for the party that represents their own religious beliefs, but these are tiny and of no political significance whatsoever.The fact that both Catholics and Protestants in N.I. will (by and large) vote for candidates who share their own religion is a specific historical anomaly. The Basque's desire for independence from Spain has very little, if anything, to do with religion.



Without wishing to enter the great riot debate, I should just point out that there have been more than 300 deaths in UK police custody since the turn of the century. Not one policeman has been succesfully prosecuted for any of these deaths. Presumably, they were all accidents.

A couple of things;

Bush and Perry are not friends and their views are not close on many issues.

Your dread is probably well placed because I don't think there is a path for Obama to get re-elected. The only way would be a serious turn around for the US economy and that's not in the cards.

Enlightenment = Liberalism about as much as Conservatism = Intelligence.

 

[ChrisE]

lol maybe the next time somebody gets beaten by the cops in Italy rhubarb can come out of his house and cheer on thugs as they toss Molatov cocktails into his front door.

 

[usedtobefast]

One interpretation of Marxism is a Christian-historicist gloss on a Greek-rationalist doctrine of salvation. In this view, Marxism, and its embodiment in Soviet Communism, has origins in a secular faith of the Enlightenment. It's ideas about a self consciously planned society and of a universal civilization grounded in scientific knowledge are central elements of a religion of humanity that is expressed in Marxism (and, ironically, economic liberalism for that matter). However the "commie liberal" world view (which is what you sarcastically meant by a leftist position) need not necessarily take on any spiritual overtones, in the religious sense, because there is a secular reasoning which imbibes the same humanitarian and ethical philosophies without religion. In a distinctly modernist fashion, then, leftist values and beliefs have been derived from the secularizing forces of Renaissance humanism and the Enlightenment that, in the wake of the decadence of Western Christianity in mid-late XIX and XX centuries Europe and given the capitalist tyranny of the Industrial Revolution, consciously sought to provide a moral alternative.

In fact what went horribly wrong with the application of Marxism within the Soviet regime, and what proved it to be as destructive as religion at its worst there, was that Communism became a political religion orchestrated around the sanctification of power as Lenin's embalmment attests.

That in America many "liberal commies," however, are also devoutly religious only demonstrates a general mania for faith and religion within US society at large and not something intrinsically leftist, as for example with the growing fashion for secularism among Europe's gauche. Whereas the most impassioned, mobilized and proactive (and hence virulent) form of religiosity within US politics and the state, has long been found within America's Christian right as is commonly known.

My viewpoint, consequently, wasn't reactionary in the slightest, but was actually grounded in an undeniable reality. Market fundamentalism, religious fundamentalism and the neo-conservative doctrine came together to adhere to a far-reaching ideology during the Bush administration and supported a foreign policy that emphasized rivalry between states rather than the possibilities of international cooperation. The rise of religious fundamentalism which until recently stayed relatively on the fringes of US conservative politics, with Bush took on a much greater presence than ever before. Although it must be admitted, as your comment suggests, the tendency to be 'pretty spiritual' or to impregnate political rhetoric with religious sentiments is not unique to the republican party - or even to the most rigidly bigoted Christian right within it – however the central role of religion in the Bush administration is where it departed from its predecessors. And this has become the most glaring aspect of the new republican party: namely, its ferverent religiousity. While some of its, the Bush administration's, most dangerous features of its approach to foreign policy betrayed the influence of beliefs deriving from Christian fundamentalism. Consider the strategies for dealing with terrorism I mentioned before. Catch phrases referring to 'the war on terror' and 'war against evil' used repeatedly by Bush embody a tendency to think of international conflict in theological terms that has long been present on the American right, which the increased power of evangelical Christianity has reinforced (and will continue to do so in the foreseeable future). Conservative evangelics, and their secular counterpart now among the Tea-party movement, count heavily both in funding the Republican party and as voters. This too will remain a fixed feature of conservative Americana for some time to come and, as such, represents a political ally that must be courted and appeased. But the Christian right's role in US politics and the state is not simply that of an ally, because as the Bush administration had demonstrated, as well as with several current likely republican presidential candidates, there is a clear affinity in worldview. Millenialist beliefs shaped and will continue to shape republican administrations' thinking, in secular as well as overtly religious forms.

In conclusion, while it's true that such overtly religious forms in American political thinking are not an exclusively conservative monopoly, but are at times expressed and shared among the 'liberal commies' too in what might be called a typically American cultural conflation; there can be no doubt that the principle intended audience of say the faith-based foreign policy of the Bush administration - its central folly - was the conservative Christian right.

i said spiritual...not religious. big difference. but nice verbiage by you.
and yes i used sarcasm to describe myself. i have been called that by Fox news devotees and if you are in the US you may know some. i tend to use sarcastic humor. you would know that if you saw my posts on this entire forum.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

lol maybe the next time somebody gets beaten by the cops in Italy rhubarb can come out of his house and cheer on thugs as they toss Molatov cocktails into his front door.

Well yeah maybe he would like that. After all it is just sensationalism on the media's part. I need to reply to this hampsterslammer guy soon before he takes his shirt off!

 

[ChrisE]

Well yeah maybe he would like that. After all it is just sensationalism on the media's part. I need to reply to this hampsterslammer guy soon before he takes his shirt off!

Yeah, can you imagine rhubard running out of his sidewalk cafe in Rome with a copy of Mein Kampf under one arm, a glass of wine in hand yelling "viva la revolution" and some punk with a 2X4 works him over? How's that police brutality protest working out for you lol.

Hamsterslammer. Nice.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Yeah, can you imagine rhubard running out of his sidewalk cafe in Rome with a copy of Mein Kampf under one arm, a glass of wine in hand yelling "viva la revolution" and some punk with a 2X4 works him over? How's that police brutality protest working out for you lol.

Hamsterslammer. Nice.

Funny stuff. I had no idea that the Rhubard read the Mein Kampf. Maybe him and that guy the hampsterslammer were at the same cafe reading the same copy?

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Alpe - you (and others) really need to stop taking things so incredibly literally! I have mentioned 'Texas' a total of two times in my recent posts. This last time, I even added 'or similar' to make it clear that I wasn't necessarily talking about Texas, or south Texas specifically, but anywhere out of the way, as I hope the rest of my text made clear with regard to getting rid of and isolating the worst loonies. The fact that there are now 'liberal' voting cities and other enclaves of enlightenment in what has traditionally been seen as a center of conservatism, is entirely irrelevant to my point. But thanks for the neat little map. Again, I stated that I hadn't made up the 'Rep. of South Texas' but had read it somewhere.

Accuse me of using a stereotype, and I will tell you you're right. As I hope all readers here will be aware, the 'Texas' stereotype that is commonly accepted in the rest of the world is a place which is the traditional home of red-neck, right-wing values, and that's the only reason I used it, not because I have any particular issue with Texans. I did not make it up, either!

Again Alpe, how many people out of the eligible voters of Texas actually voted for Perry is entirely irrelevant to the wider (certainly global) public perception, which is -

Another conservative, Christian, 10-year governor of the same state that gave the world Dubya. This is a prospect that fills me, and many other others, with dread, regardless of whether or not Perry is a Bush clone.



Um Glenn, yes I do happen to know something about the N. Ireland situation as I lived in the UK for 18 years while 'the troubles' were going on. I know rather less, though still enough, about the Basques to know that both of your examples are irrelevant to the part of my text that you bolded.

I presume you will be honest enough to concede that there are large areas of the US where no politician of either party can get elected unless they publicly proclaim their religious fervor and beliefs, as well as their love of God and the United States. This was my point, this does not happen in Europe because the average voter simply could care less whether or not their candidate goes to church on Sunday. And yes, there are minor exceptions to this where religious conservatives only vote for the party that represents their own religious beliefs, but these are tiny and of no political significance whatsoever.The fact that both Catholics and Protestants in N.I. will (by and large) vote for candidates who share their own religion is a specific historical anomaly. The Basque's desire for independence from Spain has very little, if anything, to do with religion.



Without wishing to enter the great riot debate, I should just point out that there have been more than 300 deaths in UK police custody since the turn of the century. Not one policeman has been succesfully prosecuted for any of these deaths. Presumably, they were all accidents.

I heard through some type of media that in the Netherlands there is back lash against the Turkish? What is that all about? Because of their religion?

I see that you are xenophobic about South Texans etc. No worries I like it when your prejudice comes out to the top. That way we all know where you are coming from.

 

[rhubroma]

.
Again your post is littered with misplaced ideals. The police, the same ones accused of misconduct, are tasked with protecting the citizens while waiting for due process. If the cops unjustly shot a guy, there is a mechanism in place. If you protest that process buy burning a single mom out of her home, burning somebody's car, looting a small business, the police should not try and follow your logic of association. Burning somebody's flat totally unrelated can't be tolerated.
If you go into the street to send a message to the government about poor economic outlook or feeling of general neglect and some of your fellow marchers have ball bats,clubs, molitov cocktails and are wearing masks they police should assume that you accept their techniques and take appropriate action. As fires are set or used at all , the police should assume that you are trying to murder somebody if you start their house on fire

If you are against banks,financial services. or the lack of government support and you do so by destroying a Turkish, ****-Indian business. You should be dealt with harshly, no rubber bullets, or water cannon. If you are a 20 year old standing next to a hunk of human trash in order to have cutting edge video phone coverage of some rebel action please don't cry fowl when you are raped, burned, shot, killed, disfigured. If anybody expects the police to sort thru who is standing around in the middle of one of these situations is absurd if you are not running from looting and fires the police should assume you endorse it . A social protester w a lit torch should is no social protester

I total agree with you about protest, just understand that one of the outcomes could be death

I wanted to comment further on your insistence on he "right of law enforcement" to impose order. While this, in the cases you site, is often legitimate; in others it has been easily transformed into an ideological and rather fascist arm of political oppression.

The problem is that the mass media of contemporary Western democracy has usually taken up the fascist side of law enforcement, at the expense of legitimate civil unrest, because market ideology and the corporate plutocracy that finances it has created a conflict of interests that's wholly inimical to a desire for social justice at the foundation of public protest. Then there are the undoubted infiltrates, hired or instigated just to make mischief as a distracting and corrupting element (also as instrument of propaganda to vilify and denounce) of which you don't consider at all.

Beware of this tendency to justify state fascism within the liberal capitalist democratic regime, in reactionary analysis of the type you contrived against what you thought of as my misplaced ideas. For if there's anything misguided it will be when your concerns provide such a regime the necessary pressure to bear and transform economic liberalism into an excuse to effect a fascist police state in the interest of so called order and so called common good.

The actions of certain London police are, thus, no less heinous and criminal than some of the protesters' barbarism, and I was reminded of Genoa 02 all over again.

Yet the political and media denouncements overwhelmingly displayed an agenda based and spurious rational which saw and condemned only the actions of one, while applauding and honoring those of the other. Its perfectly legitimate to punish the unlawful and vandalous acts of certain hooligans, however law enforcement needs to be taken to task and held responsible for its criminal actions much more than it is in our civil society. Whereas certain portrayals fabricated in the media are deliberately contrived to manipulate the public perception by appealing to their fears and most reactionary sentiments, much more frequently than we are at times aware.

Beware of the incumbent fascism of the state in our world, it is much more threatening to civil liberty and democracy than the social unrest which has presently taken hold of it. Whereas the causes of death have historically been found in the mechanisms of state repression of public protest - police brutality against blacks, for example, during the peacful civil rights marches, or police violence against university students of the anti-Vietnam protests, or against Gandhi and his supporters, or a million other instances of state approved oppression against civilians from Marxist fascism of the Soviet regime, to the henchmen of Pinochet, to Tienaman Square, etc. - rather than the other way around as your fears so deceptively portray. Beware.