World Politics

[rhubroma]

I heard through some type of media that in the Netherlands there is back lash against the Turkish? What is that all about? Because of their religion?

I see that you are xenophobic about South Texans etc. No worries I like it when your prejudice comes out to the top. That way we all know where you are coming from.

It's more in Germany, because of the millions of Turks who have emigrated there. And this is a result of global capitalism needing cheap labor in the First World, while offering opportunity to the disenfranchised of the developing or economically depressed world. That's pretty obvious, no?

While indeed there is an xenophobic wave taking hold of some parts of conservative Europe, it's causes are to be found in the mass movements of foreign elements to home soil caused by liberal capitalism, rather like in Texas the huge racism against the Mexicans. The only difference being, unlike in Texas, there is also a historical reason for the European perception of a Turkish menace: that found in its militant islamic expansionist raids of Western Christendom of past centuries, which tend to impregnate the popular imagination even today with images of threat and fear when it comes to the Turk (which have only been exacerbated when it comes to the moslem in general in the wake events such as 9-11, the Madrid train bombs and that Dutch film director who was murdered in cold blood by an islamic fundamentalist).

But don't use instrumental arguments to deride one who made you feel uncomfortable about real issues, unflattering though they may be, that were raised about your world. That you are obviously blind to them is perhaps expected, however your arguments to dismiss are based upon the weakest and most misguided type of rational and analysis, besides raising inconsequential points in an attempt to defend what is simply indefensible.

 

[rhubroma]

Yeah, can you imagine rhubard running out of his sidewalk cafe in Rome with a copy of Mein Kampf under one arm, a glass of wine in hand yelling "viva la revolution" and some punk with a 2X4 works him over? How's that police brutality protest working out for you lol.

Hamsterslammer. Nice.

I realize nothing would make you happier, but you would never find me with a copy of Mein Kampf. If you think so, than you have understood nothing about me.

Last comment was exactly in line with my sentiments, though.

 

[gregod]

Yeah, can you imagine rhubard running out of his sidewalk cafe in Rome with a copy of Mein Kampf under one arm, a glass of wine in hand yelling "viva la revolution" and some punk with a 2X4 works him over? How's that police brutality protest working out for you lol.

Hamsterslammer. Nice.

i wonder how many times godwin's law has been proven in this thread. does anybody want to start a count? perhaps there should be a separate sticky thread called godwin's law. the names of the people who resort to reductio ad hitlerum could be listed for their everlasting embarrassment. what does everybody think?

 

[ChrisE]

I realize nothing would make you happier, but you would never find me with a copy of Mein Kampf. If you think so, than you have understood nothing about me.

Last comment was exactly in line with my sentiments, though.

No, I don't wish that on anybody but you are detached from your words. The point is you blow off the "civil" disruptions that affect innocents, all in the name of your paranoia.

 

[ChrisE]

i wonder how many times godwin's law has been proven in this thread. does anybody want to start a count? perhaps there should be a separate sticky thread called godwin's law. the names of the people who resort to reductio ad hitlerum could be listed for their everlasting embarrassment. what does everybody think?

Well, that went completely over your head.

 

[lancaster]

....... you would never find me with a copy of Mein Kampf.............

why not? German not up to it?

(in all seriousness, i do feel i should read it. never got round to it. it went on to the "to read" list about ten years ago and hasn't got to the top of it. the communist manifesto and das kapital have done. not that i expect to agree with anything in mein kampf just that i feel i should read as many "Significant" texts as i reasonably can.)

 

[gregod]

Well, that went completely over your head.

perhaps you should read the link.

 

[rhubroma]

No, I don't wish that on anybody but you are detached from your words. The point is you blow off the "civil" disruptions that affect innocents, all in the name of your paranoia.

I have neither blown such things off (read my posts to verify), nor am I suffering from paranoia.

That would be you.

I merely find it stupid and irresponsible to think that our Western democracy has all of the necessary antibodies to make it completely immune from ever becoming a fascist state.

With things such as the Patriot Act, for instance, and the increased power to invade the private lives of citizens given on an unprecedented scale and in the name of anti-terrorism by the neocons to police and secret service agencies (except, perhaps, during McCarthy years), America has witnessed its democracy slip dangerously close towards a form of fascism.

My only wish is for the people of democracy to be on guard, because fascism has taken hold of the state before and there is no reason to believe that it can't happen again. This is not paranoia, but prudence.

Laying all the blame on the hooligans as an excuse for not addressing issues of a legitimate social discontent, however horrible the actions of some may have been; or as one to completely ignore the crimes of the state financed police force (which the tax payers pay for) and other law enforcement: is to be too conditioned by a certain propaganda that is precisely of the type upon which the fascist regimes of the past had built their sovereign and ideological legitimicies.

Yours may be a gut response to all the media hyperbole, but it is not a reasoned nor unbiased critical analysis of all the relevant facts. And in democracy we need such reasoning and unbiased critical analysis to ensure that we never let fascism take hold of the state and hence deny us all the civil liberties that we have been afforded by it.

So as I have previously said: punish the vandals (but also the police) for their crimes, but don't categorically dismiss, simply overlook or not be willing to not come to terms with the legitimate grievances of some, because of the unfortunate and condemnable actions of others. This to me seems reasoned and rational, not a reactionary paranoia.

 

[rhubroma]

i said spiritual...not religious. big difference. but nice verbiage by you.
and yes i used sarcasm to describe myself. i have been called that by Fox news devotees and if you are in the US you may know some. i tend to use sarcastic humor. you would know that if you saw my posts on this entire forum.

While mine was in regards to the impact evangelical Christianity has on the worldview of right wing America at large, the role it plays in setting the republican agenda specifically and upon who, within that party, is "morally" acceptable to run for political office (particularly the presidency) and who is not through campaign financing and votes. All off which is scary-creepy, as I have mentioned before.

Being a secularist, I find that religion and faith should have no place in politically establishing the tenor of public life in a rational and modern democracy of the Western type.

This is much more the case in Europe than it is in America, with all the noteworthy, though by no means altering the general picture, exceptions: as was particularly evident when Bush was in power. In this sense Europe's democracy - and we hope that it will remain so given the pressures of mass immigration and increasing economic disparity between the social classes, because of the excesses of financial capitalism and government cuts in social programs which are even causing democratically unhealthy reactionary responses - is moving forward and is more modern, while America's is more backwards and heading in the opposite direction away from modernity.

One's religion is (or should be, as I see it) a private matter. Whereas since the Enlightenment period and Age of Reason rationalist philosophies have offered all the ethical and civic role models (without making a religion of them either) which religion, almost exclusively, used to provide for society, without its transcendental beliefs (which I don't need, even if I'm not interested in denying them for those who feel they do). However, I do take a stand against politicians who allow their religion and religious beliefs to interfere in the collective affairs of the pluralistic and lay democratic state, or impose them too heavily upon its public life.

The Christian right and the Bush administration shared a common affinity in worldview, which in the ways I have previously set down conditioned the administration's political agenda and policies. And watching it all, the highly publicized morning presidential staff prayer gatherings at the White House to gain political support and pass off their dreadful ideology of 'preventative war' as the nation's moral perogative, as well as the terrible consequences this had for US foreign policy - what I referred to as that administration's chief folly - from more secular Europe was rather revolting, frankly. Such shameless hypocrisy caused many Europeans look at what was going on with absolute aversion and horror.

Those who want that, religion setting the political agenda, can go and live in a theocracy, as far as I'm concerned. Be it in Iran or a hypothetical Righteous Republic of Texas. But I would never choose to live in such place, nor had those who fought and died for rationalism and for building a secular democracy a couple of centuries ago both in America and Europe. Even if democracy today has taken on, in regards to the very issue upon which we are debating, dramatically different forms between them. Whereas there are people who continue as in the past to be persecuted by religious institutions and the state, just as are others still by various political regimes. This is why I continue to defend the West's hard won secularism against the examples -of which there have been many throughout history - of tyranny, whenever this form of religious bigotry or that one has gotten control of the state. This goes for the political religions like Nazi-fascism and Soviet state communism as well.

In this, I am in complete agreement with amsterhammer.

 

[Amsterhammer]

A couple of things;

Bush and Perry are not friends and their views are not close on many issues.

I would seriously be interested to hear how (far) Perry's 'weltanschauung' really differs from Dubya's.

I need to reply to this hampsterslammer guy soon before he takes his shirt off!

I smiled inwardly at your oh-so-clever b a s t a r d ization of my user name as I quickly buttoned my shirt back up again and looked forward with eager anticipation to your reply to my demolition of your previous points. Of course, I should not have been surprised to see that the following was the best that you could manage -

I heard through some type of media that in the Netherlands there is back lash against the Turkish? What is that all about? Because of their religion?

I see that you are xenophobic about South Texans etc. No worries I like it when your prejudice comes out to the top. That way we all know where you are coming from.

I would be happy to discuss Dutch social issues with you if I thought you had the remotest interest or that you were likely to understand what I say, but as Rhubroma already pointed out, this is just another meaningless diversion from the actual subject at hand.

Can I suggest that you find a dictionary and look up the meaning of xenophobia? But please, do tell me where I'm coming from, and yes, I am prejudiced against the right wing nut jobs who are ruining my country and who have brought the country into global disrepute.

And here comes Glenn's fellow traveler to share his wit and insight -

lol maybe the next time somebody gets beaten by the cops in Italy rhubarb can come out of his house and cheer on thugs as they toss Molatov cocktails into his front door.

Uh, that's Molotov, Chris.

Yeah, can you imagine rhubard running out of his sidewalk cafe in Rome with a copy of Mein Kampf under one arm, a glass of wine in hand yelling "viva la revolution" and some punk with a 2X4 works him over? How's that police brutality protest working out for you lol.

Hamsterslammer. Nice.

Ding, here comes Godwin, well done Chris, good effort. Of course, you know that traditionally the first Hitlerian reference in any discussion comes from the party who realizes that he's losing the argument? Playing around with user names is also just so much fun, isn't it? It really adds substance to what you're saying. By the way, if you boys have trouble with my user name, please feel free to just call me A/h.

Funny stuff. I had no idea that the Rhubard read the Mein Kampf. Maybe him and that guy the hampsterslammer were at the same cafe reading the same copy?

You boys crack me up, have you considered doing a double act?

i wonder how many times godwin's law has been proven in this thread. does anybody want to start a count? perhaps there should be a separate sticky thread called godwin's law. the names of the people who resort to reductio ad hitlerum could be listed for their everlasting embarrassment. what does everybody think?

Chris is already doing a fine job naming and shaming himself, as witnessed by this hysterical reply -

Well, that went completely over your head.

But don't use instrumental arguments to deride one who made you feel uncomfortable about real issues, unflattering though they may be, that were raised about your world. That you are obviously blind to them is perhaps expected, however your arguments to dismiss are based upon the weakest and most misguided type of rational and analysis, besides raising inconsequential points in an attempt to defend what is simply indefensible.

You give these guys too much credit, there is nothing either rational or analytical about their pathetic contributions here.

 

[ChrisE]

Azzhats,

The Hitler reference was a backhand compliment to rhubarb because he is nothing of the sort. But he is so on-guard due to his education and knowledge of totalitarianism that I believe it warps his views on how to combat it or its likelihood of happening in modern western society. He gets what I was saying, and he has written an interesting post in response that I will reply to later.

In the meantime, you two carry on yuck yucking about something you totally missed the boat on.

 

[redtreviso]

Hi Kidz... Do your neighbors scorn you for saying you are flying out of "Intercontinental"?

..................................

 

[Amsterhammer]

Azzhats,

The Hitler reference was a backhand compliment to rhubarb because he is nothing of the sort. But he is so on-guard due to his education and knowledge of totalitarianism that I believe it warps his views on how to combat it or its likelihood of happening in modern western society. He gets what I was saying, and he has written an interesting post in response that I will reply to later.

In the meantime, you two carry on yuck yucking about something you totally missed the boat on.

I see, so referring to Mein Kampf is a "backhand compliment"? Well, I never....I certainly did miss the boat on that one...btw, I assume that 'Azzhat' is intended as some sort of insult, but I have to confess that I'm unfamiliar with the term. Care to elaborate?

I can't wait to find out what else I missed the boat on, though amazingly enough, I have found something sensible of yours that I agree with.

Agreed on the nutjob religious gatherings. I think somebody said awhile back in here that a total nutjob getting elected that really causes the US to get azzraped is what is required, ie a "burn the house down and rebuild" scenario. Until the two party political system changes (there is nothing really different between the two except social issues that have zero impact on the economic well being of the population) then it will still be a downward spiral. The world has survived these things before, and empires come and go. What I don't like are religious nuts, of any persuasion, with their finger on the nuclear button.

 

[patricknd]

Hi Kidz... Do your neighbors scorn you for saying you are flying out of "Intercontinental"?

..................................

We missed you red. Been stumpin for Perry during your vacation?

 

[fatandfast]

I wanted to comment further on your insistence on he "right of law enforcement" to impose order. While this, in the cases you site, is often legitimate; in others it has been easily transformed into an ideological and rather fascist arm of political oppression.

The problem is that the mass media of contemporary Western democracy has usually taken up the fascist side of law enforcement, at the expense of legitimate civil unrest, because market ideology and the corporate plutocracy that finances it has created a conflict of interests that's wholly inimical to a desire for social justice at the foundation of public protest. Then there are the undoubted infiltrates, hired or instigated just to make mischief as a distracting and corrupting element (also as instrument of propaganda to vilify and denounce) of which you don't consider at all.

Beware of this tendency to justify state fascism within the liberal capitalist democratic regime, in reactionary analysis of the type you contrived against what you thought of as my misplaced ideas. For if there's anything misguided it will be when your concerns provide such a regime the necessary pressure to bear and transform economic liberalism into an excuse to effect a fascist police state in the interest of so called order and so called common good.

The actions of certain London police are, thus, no less heinous and criminal than some of the protesters' barbarism, and I was reminded of Genoa 02 all over again.

Yet the political and media denouncements overwhelmingly displayed an agenda based and spurious rational which saw and condemned only the actions of one, while applauding and honoring those of the other. Its perfectly legitimate to punish the unlawful and vandalous acts of certain hooligans, however law enforcement needs to be taken to task and held responsible for its criminal actions much more than it is in our civil society. Whereas certain portrayals fabricated in the media are deliberately contrived to manipulate the public perception by appealing to their fears and most reactionary sentiments, much more frequently than we are at times aware.

Beware of the incumbent fascism of the state in our world, it is much more threatening to civil liberty and democracy than the social unrest which has presently taken hold of it. Whereas the causes of death have historically been found in the mechanisms of state repression of public protest - police brutality against blacks, for example, during the peacful civil rights marches, or police violence against university students of the anti-Vietnam protests, or against Gandhi and his supporters, or a million other instances of state approved oppression against civilians from Marxist fascism of the Soviet regime, to the henchmen of Pinochet, to Tienaman Square, etc. - rather than the other way around as your fears so deceptively portray. Beware.

If a masked thug comes to my house and attempts to burn it down, I will qucikly go over his motivation, apologize for any Murdoch publications or stations I have ever found entertaining. I will assure him that I have no direct affiliation w the government or Marx, Pinochet. He will probably notice by the weapon pointed at him that I don't follow lots of Gandhi's teachings. I have been amazed at how criminals burning and looting can be seen as heroic. If they come to me and express themselves through fire, rape or pillage I will express myself through a truly American method of previous revolutionaries

 

[rhubroma]

If a masked thug comes to my house and attempts to burn it down, I will qucikly go over his motivation, apologize for any Murdoch publications or stations I have ever found entertaining. I will assure him that I have no direct affiliation w the government or Marx, Pinochet. He will probably notice by the weapon pointed at him that I don't follow lots of Gandhi's teachings. I have been amazed at how criminals burning and looting can be seen as heroic. If they come to me and express themselves through fire, rape or pillage I will express myself through a truly American method of previous revolutionaries

As usual you have completely missed the point and the image behind your message ironically glorifies the same violent and animalesque response to threat, which you erroneously acuse me of doing.

While it takes no consideration whatsoever of the criminal violence at times perpetrated by police in the so called name of law enforcement and so called public order. You worldview also betrays a real conservative fear that I do not have and an unwillingness to consider what lies beneath the surface of such events. You see the surface, whereas I see what's underneath.

You only want to project a heroicism in such violent acts upon my observations, which I myself did not percieve in them. Whereas the image of yourself which you portray here, appears as that of only a slightly more evolved and clever redneck.

I mean do you drive a pick-up truck with a gun rack with a level in it and hang out with Billy-Bob and Crazy Joe?

 

[Anonymous]

As usual you have completely missed the point and the image behind your message ironically glorifies the same violent and animalesque response to threat, which you erroneously acuse me of doing.

While it takes no consideration whatsoever of the criminal violence at times perpetrated by police in the so called name of law enforcement and so called public order. You worldview also betrays a real conservative fear that I do not have and an unwillingness to consider what lies beneath the surface of such events. You see the surface, whereas I see what's underneath.

You only want to project a heroicism in such violent acts upon my observations, which I myself did not percieve in them. Whereas the image of yourself which you portray here, appears as that of only a slightly more evolved and clever redneck.

I mean do you drive a pick-up truck with a gun rack with a level in it and hang out with Billy-Bob and Crazy Joe?

Yes, in an enlightened world we must first try to understand the motivation of the criminal act. It's important to understand and empathize with as the criminal proceeds to burn your house down (or worse).

At no point should anyone protect themselves or their property from any criminality lest the enlightened commence with the redneck references.

Yours is a Fantasyland, which is fine I suppose.

 

[patricknd]

As usual you have completely missed the point and the image behind your message ironically glorifies the same violent and animalesque response to threat, which you erroneously acuse me of doing.

While it takes no consideration whatsoever of the criminal violence at times perpetrated by police in the so called name of law enforcement and so called public order. You worldview also betrays a real conservative fear that I do not have and an unwillingness to consider what lies beneath the surface of such events. You see the surface, whereas I see what's underneath.

You only want to project a heroicism in such violent acts upon my observations, which I myself did not percieve in them. Whereas the image of yourself which you portray here, appears as that of only a slightly more evolved and clever redneck.

I mean do you drive a pick-up truck with a gun rack with a level in it and hang out with Billy-Bob and Crazy Joe?

don't you mean Glenn, ChrisE, and Patricknd?

 

[fatandfast]

As usual you have completely missed the point and the image behind your message ironically glorifies the same violent and animalesque response to threat, which you erroneously acuse me of doing.

While it takes no consideration whatsoever of the criminal violence at times perpetrated by police in the so called name of law enforcement and so called public order. You worldview also betrays a real conservative fear that I do not have and an unwillingness to consider what lies beneath the surface of such events. You see the surface, whereas I see what's underneath.

You only want to project a heroicism in such violent acts upon my observations, which I myself did not percieve in them. Whereas the image of yourself which you portray here, appears as that of only a slightly more evolved and clever redneck.

I mean do you drive a pick-up truck with a gun rack with a level in it and hang out with Billy-Bob and Crazy Joe?

your point is that you respect and understand people who "protest". I do as well but I delineate lawful and unlawful. I won't take your history bait about how the guys burning down a cell phone store or raping a girl are really just channeling ghosts of patriots past .NFW. I am able to drive a truck, w and wo a rack. I would like those who use guns to be properly trained and motivated as I believe 99.9% of law enforcement officers qualify.

During times of extra ordinary circumstances like a riot I hope that the majority of citizens would not submit to your point of view and wander the streets for the sake of solidarity or curiosity but instead trust that the police are sincere when they ask you to stay home.

While you may be able to tie in social unrest with burning your neighbor's house or business to the ground I don't see the connection.
Because the odds are in your favor and that you and people like you can march in the streets and probably go home uninjured you find my point of view a little right of center. We are marking another anniversary of the Crown Hts riots. As times have changed so have the motivations of protesters. The LA riots were also called protests where Korean and Indian businesses were torched and destroyed. And the reason was again because of anger against the police and the court system.
I hardly find splashing some thugs insides along the pavement as needed but the stakes have changed greatly. As witnessed in London, audience is not needed on location as long as media outlets create GhettoStars out of a$$bags that are looting and showing rebellion.

The actions of those in London may find a place in popular culture as you have pointed out. I don't accept it

 

[fatandfast]

As usual you have completely missed the point and the image behind your message ironically glorifies the same violent and animalesque response to threat, which you erroneously acuse me of doing.

While it takes no consideration whatsoever of the criminal violence at times perpetrated by police in the so called name of law enforcement and so called public order. You worldview also betrays a real conservative fear that I do not have and an unwillingness to consider what lies beneath the surface of such events. You see the surface, whereas I see what's underneath.

You only want to project a heroicism in such violent acts upon my observations, which I myself did not percieve in them. Whereas the image of yourself which you portray here, appears as that of only a slightly more evolved and clever redneck.

I mean do you drive a pick-up truck with a gun rack with a level in it and hang out with Billy-Bob and Crazy Joe?

your point is that you respect and understand people who "protest". I do as well but I delineate lawful and unlawful. I won't take your history bait about how the guys burning down a cell phone store or raping a girl are really just channeling ghosts of patriots past .NFW. I am able to drive a truck, w and wo a rack. I would like those who use guns to be properly trained and motivated as I believe 99.9% of law enforcement officers qualify.

During times of extra ordinary circumstances like a riot I hope that the majority of citizens would not submit to your point of view and wander the streets for the sake of solidarity or curiosity but instead trust that the police are sincere when they ask you to stay home.

While you may be able to tie in social unrest with burning your neighbor's house or business to the ground I don't see the connection.
Because the odds are in your favor and that you and people like you can march in the streets and probably go home uninjured you find my point of view a little right of center. We are marking another anniversary of the Crown Hts riots. As times have changed so have the motivations of protesters. The LA riots were also called protests where Korean and Indian businesses were torched and destroyed. And the reason was again because of anger against the police and the court system.
I hardly find splashing some thugs insides along the pavement as needed but the stakes have changed greatly. As witnessed in London, audience is not needed on location as long as media outlets create GhettoStars out of a$$bags that are looting and showing rebellion.

The actions of those in London may find a place in popular culture as you have pointed out. I don't accept it

 

[redtreviso]

funny how "some people" think civil disobedience and rioting should have some obligatory Kumbayah in it. Especially those who would openly carry a weapon to a political event

 

[fatandfast]

funny how "some people" think civil disobedience and rioting should have some obligatory Kumbayah in it. Especially those who would openly carry a weapon to a political event

I find it a more honest message for a person to carry a gun openly to a protest. A problem as I see it, was many of the people marching in London and elsewhere didn't know there was a measurable % of fellow civil disobedience-ants that had only come to cause physical and property damage to the police and and faceless
property owners.

If you were at home and observed a man similar to the one pictured I think it is far easier to visualize that the gun on his hip may not be there for decoration but instead intimidation. Once the protest resulted in death and violence the protest and it's original message are void.

One or two people seriously injured intentionally by fellow protesters is completely unacceptable. If all the words are to be blended, riot, protest, civil disobedience, Kumbayah extreme methods should be deployed from the onset. Don't show up to a fire w a squirt gun and expect to quell the flames. Tactical bean bags and rubber bullets, water cannons, tear gas should be used now that loss of life is an accepted outcome of the protests.

The police need to strike a balance between the protesters right to express themselves and the rights of the people that they are trying to burn, kill, rape and destroy while doing so.

 

[patricknd]

funny how "some people" think civil disobedience and rioting should have some obligatory Kumbayah in it. Especially those who would openly carry a weapon to a political event

i think there is a difference between civil disobedience and rioting.

 

[titan_90]

i think there is a difference between civil disobedience and rioting.

I agree with with this. But there is also a difference between civil disobedience and taking a firearm to a political rally.

 

[redtreviso]

time for a little musical commentary

http://youtu.be/igYHKSW8XRs

"If there has to be a bloodbath, then let's get it over with."
---Ronald Reagan