World Politics

[Alpe d'Huez]

Meanwhile, anyone watch the debate? Romney is now clearly the front runner, if only for the fact that everyone was taking pot shots at him and piling on. It probably helped him out actually.

Once again, Huntsman seemed to be person up there with the most integrity I felt.

 

[ramjambunath]

this sly vlad and his foreign ministry are grandstanding.

in fact, they're quietly celebrating that the 'ukrainian joan d'arc' aka gas princess uliya will be removed from the political scene much as they removed their political nemesis (what's that ukos president name they threw in prison on a politically trumped up pretext ?)

uliya was the leading advocate of europeanisation of her country...corrupt just as much as the rest of the folk of her post-soviet generation still ruling in the east...

she signed the contract they black-mailed her with (a separate very interesting story) and now her unsteady, zig-zagging political lines became too burdensome for kremlin.

not to worry about the gas contracts either - the current ministers of energy and the corresponding commercial entities (gasprom and naftagas) already said there will be no gas war as in 2009 and that the contracts will be fulfilled despite ukrainian grumbling.

personally, i find much more interesting the american accusation of iran plotting to kill the saudi ambassador.

if you ask me, i find the state department story suspicious.

There was a BBC radio documentary about the contract and it was intriguing.

Politically, I think that the Russian govt would be happy that Tymoshenko is arrested but considering Dmitry Medvedev was a former head of Gazprom. Also, Gazprom and Russia are getting a lot of cash which (I'm sure) goes into their pet South Stream project.

Yukos guy, Mikhail Khodorkovsky. I don't mind an oligarch going to jail but the way it was done was very fishy. He was arrested on tax fraud.

The State dept story is suspicious one. I will lay some credence to it if they show some evidence like the Mahmoud al Mabhuh killing. Anyway, their aims of sanctions against Iran won't be a UNSC one considering Russia's interests in the Nuclear energy development in Iran. If anything, it will be a NATO, EU sanction and that won't significantly change anything on the ground in Iran.

 

[rhubroma]

There was a BBC radio documentary about the contract and it was intriguing.

Politically, I think that the Russian govt would be happy that Tymoshenko is arrested but considering Dmitry Medvedev was a former head of Gazprom. Also, Gazprom and Russia are getting a lot of cash which (I'm sure) goes into their pet South Stream project.

Yukos guy, Mikhail Khodorkovsky. I don't mind an oligarch going to jail but the way it was done was very fishy. He was arrested on tax fraud.

The State dept story is suspicious one. I will lay some credence to it if they show some evidence like the Mahmoud al Mabhuh killing. Anyway, their aims of sanctions against Iran won't be a UNSC one considering Russia's interests in the Nuclear energy development in Iran. If anything, it will be a NATO, EU sanction and that won't significantly change anything on the ground in Iran.

Interesting analysis. Well Russia is certainly using its energy source as leverage to establish itself as the main power between Europe and Asia. Putin has been very successful in orchestrating this and was helped by the Americans when Iraq was invaded.

On a side note, Italian prime minister, Silvio Berlusconi, makes a about 10 trips a year up to see his chum Vladimir and never misses a party. Just recently, amidst a myriad of crisis at home, Silvio couldn't resist checking-out for a bit to go up to St. Petersburg to hang out with Putin and his harem to celebrate the Russian stronghand's birthday.

Now there have been alot of suspect and behind the scenes deals made between the two for supplying Italy with natural gas, and guess which Italian tycoon-cum-prime minister stands to make a killing?

At least in certain countries some get brought to trial for over-stepping their bounds, in Italy such crimes are not only overlooked, but raved over, by the economic liberals and Berlusconi's claque.

 

[python]

Politically, I think that the Russian govt would be happy that Tymoshenko is arrested .........South Stream project........

the entire spectacle of the show trials like tymoshenko’s, including it’s numerous acts (real or staged), when all the smoke clears, boil down to one and only simple fact - who owns the pipe.

this elementary truth of natural gas geopolitics is well known and yet it’s lethal to the majority of players who underestimate the tenacity, cunning and the very long reach of the russian bear.

it really is simple…

unlike say oil - or almost any other essential commodity - natural gas en bulk can only be efficiently transported over long pipes. the alternatives do exist (like liquefied natural gas, for example) but they lose economic competitiveness as the distance of source-to-user lengthens.

if you own the majority of pipes, you own both the word's largest gas producer (the bear) and the consumer (mamma europa).

hence, the essence of ukraine’s key role and the source of the innumerable gas wars that freezed europe.

since the soviet industrial planners never counted on ukraine becoming a sovereign state, they shortsightedly took advantage of lower flatlands and concentrated 80% of russia’s trans-european pipes in the ukraine.

ownership of this vital infrastructure is ukraine’s only national tangible treasure (and leverage). more important than all gold reserves, than armed forces, than anything they have…you lose that and you lost your national sovereignty.

the bear has succeeded in becoming part owner of the pipes crossing white russia. in return, they received a discount. the ukrainians however want it both ways - no economic integration (similar the eu) russia wants, no business partnership, no paying a fair market price like independent germany or bulgaria …

hence the angry bear started rearranging ukrainian political landscape and concurrently started building direct pipes to europe around ukraine across the baltic and black seas.

tymoshenko was just one and by far not the last victim of the long geopolitical struggle the bear launched with putin’s arrival. The current pres yanukovic knows too well he’ll have to go too if he does not show ‘cooperation’.

take my word, he will balk. we should hear about a new ‘cooperation’ agreement within weeks.

in the current reality of the strengthening neighbourhood bully bear whilst the west is in crisis, it’s only prudent.

 

[ramjambunath]

Interesting analysis. Well Russia is certainly using its energy source as leverage to establish itself as the main power between Europe and Asia. Putin has been very successful in orchestrating this and was helped by the Americans when Iraq was invaded.

Russia does use energy as a tool of leverage especially (and predominantly only) in Eastern Europe, which was caught in the urge to join the west either through the EU or NATO. Most of them did it in a non-offensive manner but the countries which went through the colour revolutions, ala Ukraine and Georgia, took an almost anti-Russia stand and while the movements were genuine, they certainly received western support and hence the non renewal of the oil contract on the 1st Jan 2009.

Also, there are some very genuine reasons for Russian frustrations in some cases. Russian ethnicity people who lived in Latvia for generations don't get a proper passport but an alien passport. 30% of its population have alien passports. There was also the moving of the Second World War Memorial the Bronze statue of Tallinn in Estonia.

http://www.photologix.nl/useuropeans/index.php?post=32
http://rt.com/news/latvian-aliens-demand-right-to-vote/


Surprisingly, the huge movements to elect the govt have fizzled out with Yanukovych in power and Sakashvili facing regular protests.

On the East and in Asia however, Russia has strong historical relations (since Soviet times) with many nations especially India where they brokered the Tashkent declaration between in India and Pakstan in 1966.

I don't know much about Italian politics so I will restrain myself there.

 

[ramjambunath]

the entire spectacle of the show trials like tymoshenko’s, including it’s numerous acts (real or staged), when all the smoke clears, boil down to one and only simple fact - who owns the pipe.
...

the bear has succeeded in becoming part owner of the pipes crossing white russia. in return, they received a discount. the ukrainians however want it both ways - no economic integration (similar the eu) russia wants, no business partnership, no paying a fair market price like independent germany or bulgaria …

hence the angry bear started rearranging ukrainian political landscape and concurrently started building direct pipes to europe around ukraine across the baltic and black seas.....

Absolutely, it was Gazprom's stated aim to reduce the number of transit countries (read Ukraine) when the project was flagged off. At the moment though, I think they won't fully be supportive of Yanukovych considering they are already in the EU and he hasn't made any overt statements pro Russia.

But, I do think that contract signed in 2009 which bumped up the price Naftogaz had to pay from a subsidised rate to market rate (along with other factors like Yukos amongst others) allowed them to fund a pretty capital intensive project.

 

[Spare Tyre]

Since no one here seems much interested in Slavoj Zizek, or what he said to OWS, I thought I would post a picture of his former wife, Argentinian model and Lacanian philosopher/psychoanalyst Analia Hounie. Sorry, I couldn’t find a picture of her on a bike, but then, this is not about the bike.

I appreciated your post and your citing of Zizek - amongst other things it reminded me I have been wanting to read some of his work - just didn't have anything to add.

On the topic of Hounie, though, I wonder what she would make of your insertion of that photo in this thread?

 

[redtreviso]

“There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves Orcs.”

-John Rogers

 

[ImmaculateKadence]

Meanwhile, anyone watch the debate? Romney is now clearly the front runner, if only for the fact that everyone was taking pot shots at him and piling on. It probably helped him out actually.

Once again, Huntsman seemed to be person up there with the most integrity I felt.

Yeah. Cain also took some shots on the 9-9-9 plan (sounds better when you say it), but that's because he's surged in the polls. The thing about Romney though is he still responds well. He seems the most presidential, if that makes sense.

 

[blutto]

“There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves Orcs.”

-John Rogers

...just got back from a wander in the Book Club thread....and I have some very very bad news...our dear friend SoCal, has admitted to reading Ayn Rand...so now more than ever, we have reason to fear for the sanctity of his soul...

...to help save the poor boy we should get together and schedule a prayer meeting ...or something???...should we not?...

Cheers

blutto

 

[blutto]

Meanwhile, anyone watch the debate? Romney is now clearly the front runner, if only for the fact that everyone was taking pot shots at him and piling on. It probably helped him out actually.

Once again, Huntsman seemed to be person up there with the most integrity I felt.

...yes Huntsman seems, and the key word here is seems,(and in terms of what metric? and to whose benefit?), to be the most level headed but do remember he has a long standing Chinese connection that could potentially be a problem for the US...and this is not unlike the Chinese connection that Bush1 cultivated before entering the White House political circles proper ( and it was during his stay there that the current sell out of US manufacturing to the Chinese got started and subsequently rolling )...

...there are some commentators that are seeing Huntsman as the second coming of Bush1 and put on the US poltical stage to potentially finish the Chinese job...

...yeah this is a bit of a stretch but looking into Huntsman's background is interesting...

Cheers

blutto

 

[Anonymous]

...just got back from a wander in the Book Club thread....and I have some very very bad news...our dear friend SoCal, has admitted to reading Ayn Rand...so now more than ever, we have reason to fear for the sanctity of his soul...

...to help save the poor boy we should get together and schedule a prayer meeting ...or something???...should we not?...

Cheers

blutto

I have some very very bad news

I've also read the Communist Manifesto, Mein Kampf and Dr Seuss.

Some would say reading is a good thing... that it's a tool to help broaden one's view. Maybe you should try it sometime.

we should get together and schedule a prayer meeting

That would be great. Let me know when you get it organized and I'll light a candle or something.

to help save the poor boy

Everyone needs to be saved, don't we B?

 

[Cobblestones]

Dr. Ivar Giaever;

I actually had the pleasure of meeting Dr. Giaever on one occasion. I listened to his presentation (since winning the Nobel Prize he subsequently moved to a different field, biophysics) and had a bit of a conversation with him afterwards.

If I had to describe him in a few words based on my little experience and others around him: he likes to be on the side of the minority opinion. So I'm not really surprised by his stance (and keep in mind that he's not a climate scientist either, a physicist, yes, but his speciality is far removed from climate science).

Anyway, when you read his resignation letter from the APS (a society which I think has a bit of a track record of shooting itself in the foot), his main beef is the word 'incontrovertible evidence'. And I think he has a bit of a point here, although it is mostly semantics. I believe if the word 'incontrovertible' would have been changed to 'overwhelming' he might have been fine.

You see, 'incontrovertible' has a certain absolute quality to it. And science never does deal in absolutes. Theories are upheld until disproven. A part of the scientific method is that every theory must have the quality that it can be disproven, otherwise it's not a scientific theory. Really elementary stuff. So the wording by the APS is indeed very much questionable. Couple that with a character who likes discussion and dissent a bit for the sake of it, and you get a talking point for the deniers. But I am convinced, if the situation was the reverse, Dr. Giaever would be the lone voice on the 'man made global warming side'.

 

[rhubroma]

Russia does use energy as a tool of leverage especially (and predominantly only) in Eastern Europe, which was caught in the urge to join the west either through the EU or NATO. Most of them did it in a non-offensive manner but the countries which went through the colour revolutions, ala Ukraine and Georgia, took an almost anti-Russia stand and while the movements were genuine, they certainly received western support and hence the non renewal of the oil contract on the 1st Jan 2009.

Also, there are some very genuine reasons for Russian frustrations in some cases. Russian ethnicity people who lived in Latvia for generations don't get a proper passport but an alien passport. 30% of its population have alien passports. There was also the moving of the Second World War Memorial the Bronze statue of Tallinn in Estonia.

http://www.photologix.nl/useuropeans/index.php?post=32
http://rt.com/news/latvian-aliens-demand-right-to-vote/


Surprisingly, the huge movements to elect the govt have fizzled out with Yanukovych in power and Sakashvili facing regular protests.

On the East and in Asia however, Russia has strong historical relations (since Soviet times) with many nations especially India where they brokered the Tashkent declaration between in India and Pakstan in 1966.

I don't know much about Italian politics so I will restrain myself there.

Yes that's rather interesting how Russia has used coercion or else brokered, as you say, its way into either its former Soviet vassals or peripheral states bellow, south and east, of the Kazakh Steppe.

You sound really informed about internal Russian affairs. I could tell you about Italy, but you probably still wouldn't understand it when I was done.

In fact, this seems to play into the larger picture of a geopolitical shift in orientation that is in effect right now, from West to East.

 

[VeloCity]

I'm admittedly going out on a limb here, but he's authored three books on the subject. He's not a climatologist and I'm guessing you are not either... You have not stated that you are an author, so... Trying to be objective here... I'm going to say that he's more qualified on the subject than you are. Sorry.

Al Gore has written more books than has Chris Horner, so then, by your criteria, you must think Gore is more qualified on the subject than Horner is, right?

Anyway, lessee...on the one side, there's tens of thousand climatologists, ecologists, biogeochemists, etc from all over the world who actually work on this stuff on a daily basis who are convinced that climate change is real and that it's driven primarily by human activities, and on the other side, there's a guy who's a trade lawyer by training with no scientific background whatsoever who works for a conservative think tank who says it's all a big hoax.

Yeah...ok then.

(Reminds me of a story a colleague once told me about the frustration of having to deal with climate deniers, about a guy with a toothache who visits 1000 dentists, 998 of whom work him up with x-rays etc and tell him he has a cavity while the other 2 don't even look in his mouth and tell him everything's fine, the other 998 dentists don't know what they're doing. And even though his tooth still hurts, he chooses to believe the latter 2 because they're telling him exactly what he wants to hear.)

n between gasps for air can you explain the Nasa's Terra satellite data that shows major discrepancies (to the science is "in" crowd) in energy dissipation to space, both in quantity and timing?
Dr. Roy Spencer (certified idiot);

In between grasping at straws, can you explain what happened to Dr Spencer's "paper"? Might want to follow that one up a bit more, Scott, since it turned out to be a classic example. Suffice it to say that it was debunked quite thoroughly (even by NASA's own atmospheric scientists, who pointed out that Spencer misapplied the Terra data). Not a single climatologist thought the paper had any merit whatsoever, not for the least reason that Spencer's model was so overly simplistic that it lacked a working ocean or functioning hydrological cycles, components one might think a wee bit important when climate modelling.

Even a cursory browse on Google clearly shows there to be much disagreement, so no, the science is not in.

The "cursory browse on Google" brings up political sites and blogs, Scott.

Again, if you really want to know about the actual science of climate change, which I doubt you actually do, go read the original literature, prior to it being run through any ideological filter (right or left).

The science is in and has been in for quite a while now, and I think you'd be pretty shocked at how far along it actually is.

 

[Cobblestones]

The State dept story is suspicious one. I will lay some credence to it if they show some evidence like the Mahmoud al Mabhuh killing. Anyway, their aims of sanctions against Iran won't be a UNSC one considering Russia's interests in the Nuclear energy development in Iran. If anything, it will be a NATO, EU sanction and that won't significantly change anything on the ground in Iran.

I have my problems with this story, too. It seems at one point, the objective changed from abduction of the Saudi ambassador, to assassination, to 'just bomb the sh!t out of a whole restaurant, never mind the children'. This is almost always the work of an 'agent provocateur'. Also, I have problems with the story that the Iranian government was involved in this. For that, it just looks too unprofessional. It seems, the instigator, Manssor Arbabsiar, was the guy coming up with the general idea, then opportunistically looks to Mexican drug cartels (apparently Arbabsiar had business dealings in Mexico) for hired guns and the first guy he contacts turns out to be someone turned by US law enforcement. Does that sound like a plan hatched by the Iranian government for doing a very high visibility operation? I have a hard time believing that.

Now, all that aside, what about drone attacks into Pak!stan to assassinate alleged AlQaida leaders? How many innocents, including children, have died there? Now, I'm not trying to compare the Saudi Ambassador with alleged AlQaida leaders, but the 'collateral damage' (to use this ugly euphemism) is comparable, is it not? What about US CIA agents abducting a German citizen on holiday in former Yugoslavia and holding him for 5 months in a torture camp in Afghanistan, because of a name similarity? What about the 23 convicted CIA agents who abducted Abu Omar in Italy and sent him for torture to Mubaraks thugs in Egypt? Again, I am not equating or condoning any of those things, but it is clear these kinds of state sponsored abductions (and to be fair, whether the attempt of the Saudi ambassador was state sponsored or not is very much in the air), are well documented practice by several states including the US (and Israel). So the outcry by Biden, Clinton etc. seems a tad hypocritical.

And of course, it seems very convenient that in the year of the Arab revolution, a plot is uncovered which focuses Saudi rage against Iran. But maybe that's just the cynic in me.

 

[Cobblestones]

...yes Huntsman seems, and the key word here is seems,(and in terms of what metric? and to whose benefit?), to be the most level headed but do remember he has a long standing Chinese connection that could potentially be a problem for the US...and this is not unlike the Chinese connection that Bush1 cultivated before entering the White House political circles proper ( and it was during his stay there that the current sell out of US manufacturing to the Chinese got started and subsequently rolling )...

...there are some commentators that are seeing Huntsman as the second coming of Bush1 and put on the US poltical stage to potentially finish the Chinese job...

...yeah this is a bit of a stretch but looking into Huntsman's background is interesting...

Cheers

blutto

My feeling is that Huntsman is running for Secretary of State under Romney, but ok. I watched the debate yesterday and really, I could have saved myself the trouble. Romney's performance is par to none. Cain comes off a rather inexperienced in politics (which, considering his career, he probably is), Gingrich is still his disgusting little self, Perry seems to sleep through most of the debate, and Bachman, Paul and Santorum just don't matter.

Huntsman had probably the funniest line with 'I thought 999 was the price of a pizza', and Cain was the most cringeworthy when he said his ideal Fed chair would be a guy like Greenspan. Paul answered that one, and I think sunk Cain's poll numbers down the drain (screw mixed metaphors).

 

[rhubroma]

I have my problems with this story, too. It seems at one point, the objective changed from abduction of the Saudi ambassador, to assassination, to 'just bomb the sh!t out of a whole restaurant, never mind the children'. This is almost always the work of an 'agent provocateur'. Also, I have problems with the story that the Iranian government was involved in this. For that, it just looks too unprofessional. It seems, the instigator, Manssor Arbabsiar, was the guy coming up with the general idea, then opportunistically looks to Mexican drug cartels (apparently Arbabsiar had business dealings in Mexico) for hired guns and the first guy he contacts turns out to be someone turned by US law enforcement. Does that sound like a plan hatched by the Iranian government for doing a very high visibility operation? I have a hard time believing that.

Now, all that aside, what about drone attacks into Pak!stan to assassinate alleged AlQaida leaders? How many innocents, including children, have died there? Now, I'm not trying to compare the Saudi Ambassador with alleged AlQaida leaders, but the 'collateral damage' (to use this ugly euphemism) is comparable, is it not? What about US CIA agents abducting a German citizen on holiday in former Yugoslavia and holding him for 5 months in a torture camp in Afghanistan, because of a name similarity? What about the 23 convicted CIA agents who abducted Abu Omar in Italy and sent him for torture to Mubaraks thugs in Egypt? Again, I am not equating or condoning any of those things, but it is clear these kinds of state sponsored abductions (and to be fair, whether the attempt of the Saudi ambassador was state sponsored or not is very much in the air), are well documented practice by several states including the US (and Israel). So the outcry by Biden, Clinton etc. seems a tad hypocritical.

And of course, it seems very convenient that in the year of the Arab revolution, a plot is uncovered which focuses Saudi rage against Iran. But maybe that's just the cynic in me.

My did that one get alot of press around here of course in the left dailies, which were scandalized and indignant. Berlusconi's papers, by contrast, never mentioned it. Or else accused the judicial magistracy of being communists.

 

[ramjambunath]

Serbia recommended for EU candidate status

The European Commission has recommended Serbia for EU candidate status but said talks could only start after it normalised ties with Kosovo.

Belgrade refuses to recognise the territory's self-declared independence and tension involving Kosovo's ethnic Serbs sparked violence this summer.

The Commission also recommended opening accession talks with Montenegro.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-15277402

This is just a disaster waiting to happen but equally, I think it is politically motivated.

Croatia and Bosnia are waiting on their EU membership and once they get their economies sorted they are shoo ins into the EU. There surely has to be some resentment in Serbia when Karadzic and Mladic are treated as butchers (rightly so) while Naser Oric, who was no less a monster (I remember him boasting in an NYT report about him annihilating a Serbian village), was convicted of violations of laws of war and not genocide. Same case with Croatia where 250000 Krajina Serbs were ethnically cleansed.

Politically, with elections coming in March-May in Serbia the EU would want a pro western leader (which Boris Tadic is) so delivering a promise would bolster his chances in them.

Boris Tadic's reaction

 

[ramjambunath]

...I could tell you about Italy, but you probably still wouldn't understand it when I was done....

Well to be fair every single country is like that isn't it.

Considering Italy has been politically so unstable since the Second War, is the opposition so weak that it can't topple this scandal ridden govt or is it that Berlusconi has such control over the media ala Sarkozy.

 

[rhubroma]

Well to be fair every single country is like that isn't it.

Considering Italy has been politically so unstable since the Second War, is the opposition so weak that it can't topple this scandal ridden govt or is it that Berlusconi has such control over the media ala Sarkozy.

Politically unstable since the Second World War!!! Italy has always been political instability personified.

Like I said, you probably wouldn't understand it. Hell I don't even understand it and I've been living here for 16 years.

All humor aside, Italy's been unstable since the fall of the Ancient Roman Empire and a big part of that until recently has been due to the papacy. But this is an entirely different matter. Here it is called campanilismo, where everyone's got their own turf to hold and nobody gives anything up.

Berlusconi, yes, has an imbalanced control over the media. But, hey, he's the classic "self made man!" And what good cheer he is and always ready with the next gaffe! Now its kapo to a German minister, now its an invitation to be his wife's paramour to the Danish prime minister and so forth. Though he's way more in control, in this sense, than Sarkozy.

Unfortunately for Berlusconi in these times, however, he's also a swindler and a sex-crazed septuagenarian. Although in the later sense I'd probably have been too in his shoes, though would have never entered politics. Why bother? He would have made such a good medieval baron though. In fact, that's pretty much what he is.

I've often asked myself: why would someone with all his money have entered politics? The stress, the visibility, the scrutiny, etc.

But then I know the answer.

 

[Anonymous]

Al Gore has written more books than has Chris Horner, so then, by your criteria, you must think Gore is more qualified on the subject than Horner is, right?

Anyway, lessee...on the one side, there's tens of thousand climatologists, ecologists, biogeochemists, etc from all over the world who actually work on this stuff on a daily basis who are convinced that climate change is real and that it's driven primarily by human activities, and on the other side, there's a guy who's a trade lawyer by training with no scientific background whatsoever who works for a conservative think tank who says it's all a big hoax.

Yeah...ok then.

(Reminds me of a story a colleague once told me about the frustration of having to deal with climate deniers, about a guy with a toothache who visits 1000 dentists, 998 of whom work him up with x-rays etc and tell him he has a cavity while the other 2 don't even look in his mouth and tell him everything's fine, the other 998 dentists don't know what they're doing. And even though his tooth still hurts, he chooses to believe the latter 2 because they're telling him exactly what he wants to hear.)

In between grasping at straws, can you explain what happened to Dr Spencer's "paper"? Might want to follow that one up a bit more, Scott, since it turned out to be a classic example. Suffice it to say that it was debunked quite thoroughly (even by NASA's own atmospheric scientists, who pointed out that Spencer misapplied the Terra data). Not a single climatologist thought the paper had any merit whatsoever, not for the least reason that Spencer's model was so overly simplistic that it lacked a working ocean or functioning hydrological cycles, components one might think a wee bit important when climate modelling.

The "cursory browse on Google" brings up political sites and blogs, Scott.

Again, if you really want to know about the actual science of climate change, which I doubt you actually do, go read the original literature, prior to it being run through any ideological filter (right or left).

The science is in and has been in for quite a while now, and I think you'd be pretty shocked at how far along it actually is.

Al Gore has written more books than has Chris Horner, so then, by your criteria, you must think Gore is more qualified on the subject than Horner is, right?

I said Horner was probably more qualified than you and by that measure Gore would be as well. Is Horner more qualified than Gore? It's debatable.

Anyway, lessee...on the one side, there's tens of thousand climatologists, ecologists, biogeochemists, etc from all over the world who actually work on this stuff on a daily basis who are convinced that climate change is real and that it's driven primarily by human activities, and on the other side, there's a guy who's a trade lawyer by training with no scientific background whatsoever who works for a conservative think tank who says it's all a big hoax

.

You had limited this conversation to climatologists earlier. But I agree, there are many that are connected to this field that should be listened to. And by that standard there is diverse opinion.

Again, if you really want to know about the actual science of climate change, which I doubt you actually do, go read the original literature, prior to it being run through any ideological filter (right or left).

New information comes to light everyday. Should we ignore it?

Not a single climatologist thought the paper had any merit whatsoever, not for the least reason that Spencer's model was so overly simplistic that it lacked a working ocean or functioning hydrological cycles, components one might think a wee bit important when climate modelling.

So Spencer's theory on the PDO is meritless? Ok.

The science is in and has been in for quite a while now, and I think you'd be pretty shocked at how far along it actually is.

Ok, let's say you are 100% correct. You want to go full force to conservation and green renewables. No nuclear. Wind, solar and conservation.

What will happen if we do that (we can't because wind and solar isn't ready for prime time) in the US when China and India won't? There's no global consensus on any of this. The technology isn't ready... so what exactly should we do?

Our government can't support the investment required. Our economy is dependent upon energy and will collapse without it. Economic collapse means our government will no loger have the ability to borrow. We will default on our obligations and there may well be economic upheaval all over the world, meanwhile there will be very little change in co2 and methane production.

If you are correct, what's in motion will take generations to slow down, much less stop and anything we do now will amount to putting a band-aid on a spurting artery.

Isn't this really about additional streams of taxation for governments on a global basis? there's no getting away from fossil fuels now or anytime in the near future.

EDIT: And the production of co2 is not the only issue... there's the whole methane issue (cow flatulence, rice production, et al... how do we deal with that?)

It's like collecting lunch money from school kids to pay down our national debt.

 

[Zam_Olyas]

Well to be fair every single country is like that isn't it.

Considering Italy has been politically so unstable since the Second War, is the opposition so weak that it can't topple this scandal ridden govt or is it that Berlusconi has such control over the media ala Sarkozy.

Politically unstable since the Second World War!!! Italy has always been political instability personified.

Like I said, you probably wouldn't understand it. Hell I don't even understand it and I've been living here for 16 years.

All humor aside, Italy's been unstable since the fall of the Ancient Roman Empire and a big part of that until recently has been due to the papacy. But this is an entirely different matter. Here it is called campanilismo, where everyone's got their own turf to hold and nobody gives anything up.

Berlusconi, yes, has an imbalanced control over the media. But, hey, he's the classic "self made man!" And what good cheer he is and always ready with the next gaffe! Now its kapo to a German minister, now its an invitation to be his wife's paramour to the Danish prime minister and so forth. Though he's way more in control, in this sense, than Sarkozy.

Unfortunately for Berlusconi in these times, however, he's also a swindler and a sex-crazed septuagenarian. Although in the later sense I'd probably have been too in his shoes, though would have never entered politics. Why bother? He would have made such a good medieval baron though. In fact, that's pretty much what he is.

I've often asked myself: why would someone with all his money have entered politics? The stress, the visibility, the scrutiny, etc.

But then I know the answer.

Well...atleast an Italian politician is the boss in India, dare i say the most powerful woman in the world.

 

[ramjambunath]

Croatia: War crimes general's birthday marked

56 torches were lit at midnight at Knin Fortress on Tuesday to mark former Croat General Ante Gotovina’s 56th birthday.

Gotovina was convicted by the Hague Tribunal for committing war crimes during the Croat military Operation Storm in 1995, which targeted the country's ethnic Serb population.

“This is a joint greeting of the Croat defenders and all our friends, especially fan groups from all parts of Croatia. We want to wish a happy birthday to our hero General Ante Gotovina from a place where Croatian flag was raised as a symbol of victory,” said head of Zavet veterans’ association Zadar office Boris Mužanović.

According to the local media, the torches were mostly lit by Gotovina’s fellow combatants. Knin Mayor and Croatian Democratic Union (HDZ) official Josipa Rimac was among them.

The celebration was organized by the Defenders Portal and Zadar Munipality defenders’ associations.

Reading of patriotic poems dubbed “We are thinking about you general” was announced for Wednesday evening in Zadar and a music and poetry night will be held in Split.

Right-wing Croatian Party of Rights publicly sent a birthday greeting to Gotovina.

The Hague Tribunal sentenced Gotovina to 24 years and General Mladen Markač to 18 years in prison in mid-April for their involvement in a joint criminal enterprise aimed at forcefully and permanently removing the Serbian population from the Krajina region during the Operation Storm.

The third indictee, General Ivan Čermak, was acquitted.

http://www.b92.net/eng/news/comments.php?nav_id=76817

Ironically, the day after Serbia's conditional recommendation this galling thing happens. The EC should make some sort of statement about this.

Well...atleast an Italian politician is the boss in India, dare i say the most powerful woman in the world.

Yes and her son will soon be PM candidate. The way she managed the ruling coalition first time around was admirable but the past couple of years have not been a bed of roses.

 

[Zam_Olyas]

Croatia: War crimes general's birthday marked

56 torches were lit at midnight at Knin Fortress on Tuesday to mark former Croat General Ante Gotovina’s 56th birthday.

Gotovina was convicted by the Hague Tribunal for committing war crimes during the Croat military Operation Storm in 1995, which targeted the country's ethnic Serb population.

“This is a joint greeting of the Croat defenders and all our friends, especially fan groups from all parts of Croatia. We want to wish a happy birthday to our hero General Ante Gotovina from a place where Croatian flag was raised as a symbol of victory,” said head of Zavet veterans’ association Zadar office Boris Mužanović.

According to the local media, the torches were mostly lit by Gotovina’s fellow combatants. Knin Mayor and Croatian Democratic Union (HDZ) official Josipa Rimac was among them.

The celebration was organized by the Defenders Portal and Zadar Munipality defenders’ associations.

Reading of patriotic poems dubbed “We are thinking about you general” was announced for Wednesday evening in Zadar and a music and poetry night will be held in Split.

Right-wing Croatian Party of Rights publicly sent a birthday greeting to Gotovina.

The Hague Tribunal sentenced Gotovina to 24 years and General Mladen Markač to 18 years in prison in mid-April for their involvement in a joint criminal enterprise aimed at forcefully and permanently removing the Serbian population from the Krajina region during the Operation Storm.

The third indictee, General Ivan Čermak, was acquitted.

http://www.b92.net/eng/news/comments.php?nav_id=76817

Ironically, the day after Serbia's conditional recommendation this galling thing happens. The EC should make some sort of statement about this.



Yes and her son will soon be PM candidate. The way she managed the ruling coalition first time around was admirable but the past couple of years have not been a bed of roses.

exactamundo...maybe he will push for an Italian quota in top Govt jobs...lol..which will be great.