X riding for US postal

[Vino attacks everyone]

Hi guys.
Iam not one of those who have enough time to really follow everything herein the clinic p)
But to me it looks like there is a certain consensus that the US Postal "programe" was by far the best doping programe at the time, so I was wondering; if LA did not exist and the captain for US Postal was for example Vino, Mayo, Beloki, Kloden, etc, how do you think they would have done? Would they have challenged Ullrich?

Discuss

P.S. If a similar thread has been made earlier I am sorry

 

[ebandit]

response

or that lance responded more greatly to epo

of course there are lot's of similar threads............it's the clinic!

Mark L

 

[hrotha]

I don't think it's that simple. We saw Heras, Hamilton and Landis on and off the US Postal program. By all accounts, Armstrong was a very good responder AND he kept the best stuff to himself.

 

[Netserk]

No doubt Vino would have dominated everything

 

[Dear Wiggo]

I was under the impression Weisel was involved in the creation of the team after spending time with LA and finding a kindred spirit. As corrupt as the other riders you list may be, I don't think any of them would have made the connection with Weisel like Lance did.

And therefore, there would have been no team.

 

[spalco]

Imo the answer is clearly, definitively yes.

 

[Vino attacks everyone]

No doubt Vino would have dominated everything

I wish this had happend

 

[gooner]

With no LA there wouldn't be Bruyneel there. And if there was no Bruyneel we probably wouldn't of seen Del Moral either. Even though there was doping with Celaya there JV said things ramped up even more when Del Moral got introduced.

So no I don't think US Postal would of had the same success.

 

[Benotti69]

This was disussed at length IIRC in any number of the Armstrong threads as his fanboys tried to argue that wonderboy would've won the TdF without epo.

Another thread on Armstrong is not really needed.

 

[blackcat]

Hi guys.
Iam not one of those who have enough time to really follow everything herein the clinic p)
But to me it looks like there is a certain consensus that the US Postal "programe" was by far the best doping programe at the time, so I was wondering; if LA did not exist and the captain for US Postal was for example Vino, Mayo, Beloki, Kloden, etc, how do you think they would have done? Would they have challenged Ullrich?

Discuss

P.S. If a similar thread has been made earlier I am sorry

key was they marshalled economic resources behind an AMERICAN who could sell CANCER to the mom and pa in middle america who took only an interest in monday night football for their sporting fix.

would not have happened behind jonny vee, levi, tyler h, kevin l, bobby julich, and floyd, because they could not capitalise on a mainstream brand that transcended an esoteric continental sport.

really was quite brilliant. if perverse and evil boffin alchemy thingie going on.

 

[MarkvW]

Hi guys.
Iam not one of those who have enough time to really follow everything herein the clinic p)
But to me it looks like there is a certain consensus that the US Postal "programe" was by far the best doping programe at the time, so I was wondering; if LA did not exist and the captain for US Postal was for example Vino, Mayo, Beloki, Kloden, etc, how do you think they would have done? Would they have challenged Ullrich?

Discuss

P.S. If a similar thread has been made earlier I am sorry

The best doping programs were the programs that didn't get discovered! USPS, by that definition, was nowhere near the best.

 

[D-Queued]

While nobody batted an eyelash when Tex was doing his best Borat impression while riding for Astana, who would follow or believe it if a Russian was the GC star on the US Postal team?

Same goes for Mayo, Beloki, Kloden.

Would not happen.

Dave.

 

[DirtyWorks]

While nobody batted an eyelash when Tex was doing his best Borat impression while riding for Astana, who would follow or believe it if a Russian was the GC star on the US Postal team?

Same goes for Mayo, Beloki, Kloden.

Would not happen.

Dave.

More to this was the simple fact Wiesel was selling an "All American"-ish team as the owner of USA Cycling. Allegations of Wiesel organizing doping have followed him around since prior to his takeover of USA Cycling.

IMHO, there were better riders than Wonderboy in the U.S. at the time. Wiesel's mancrush and Wonderboy's pathology linked to UCI cooperation simply did not allow any of them to do better than Wonderboy.

Basically though, there's no right answer to the OP's question.

 

[rhubroma]

key was they marshalled economic resources behind an AMERICAN who could sell CANCER to the mom and pa in middle america who took only an interest in monday night football for their sporting fix.

would not have happened behind jonny vee, levi, tyler h, kevin l, bobby julich, and floyd, because they could not capitalise on a mainstream brand that transcended an esoteric continental sport.

really was quite brilliant. if perverse and evil boffin alchemy thingie going on.

One must be fascist, that's the key.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

Porte comes to mind.

 

[Microchip]

I agree that the Postal team would not have been as successful as it was under Lance. Besides the programme, the team would have had to have a ruthless type of temperament at the helm if they were to have the same success w/out Lance.

 

[python]

I agree that the Postal team would not have been as successful as it was under Lance. Besides the programme, the team would have had to have a ruthless type of temperament at the helm if they were to have the same success w/out Lance.

agree with you observations including the 'ruthlessness' comment...but what does the ruthlessness mean in light of those other teams failing to match the performance of the armstrong phenomena and his teams ?

the answer (imo) is : (in addition to the cogent observation by blackcat about the resources), i would plainly add the amount and the mode of doping that the other riders/teams, unlike armstrong's, felt was too risky for both their health and the chances of passing a test...

simply put, a tdf transfusion schedule of 3 units in stead of 2 (as tyler has hinted at) was risky, no doubt, but was well worth it given the uci attitude and the performance benefits.

this is what i believe the armstrong/bruyneel secret was - dope to the max and let the chips fall where they may - except we count it wont be our heads...

 

[Afrank]

Armstrong was the perfect rider to lead Postal's domination. Cancer survivor to ensure he had plenty of fanboys, Livestrong organization to make him look good, ruthless to shout down and stomp out anybody that casts doubt on him plus to force others to dope, and of course capable of telling multiple lies and always maintaining that his wins were "clean" wins.

I can't see guys like Vino, Mayo, Beloki, Kloden, etc. being able to do all that. Even if they were able to win a bunch of Tour's, they would probably be caught long before Armstrong ultimately was, because they didn't have the qualities mentioned above.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Hi guys.
Iam not one of those who have enough time to really follow everything herein the clinic p)
But to me it looks like there is a certain consensus that the US Postal "programe" was by far the best doping programe at the time, so I was wondering; if LA did not exist and the captain for US Postal was for example Vino, Mayo, Beloki, Kloden, etc, how do you think they would have done? Would they have challenged Ullrich?

Discuss

P.S. If a similar thread has been made earlier I am sorry

There was nothing particularly unique about the USPS doping program.

But Armstrong was not on that program - he was on the full Ferrari program.
And Vino improved as a GTer on that program (winner Vuelta 06, Albi TT 07) before he got popped.

 

[Microchip]

... the chances of passing a test...

Agreed Python. This part is important too. I can’t see it likely that if the USPS was headed by Basso or Vino and so on, that they would have had the ‘protection’ from the UCI like they did under Lance. Weisel is a very important part of their ‘success’, crucial even.

 

[ElChingon]

Ricco on USPS as leader, 10 TdF wins and a few Giro's and Vueltas FUR SHUR!

 

[Zweistein]

The best doping programs were the programs that didn't get discovered! USPS, by that definition, was nowhere near the best.

That is not really right. How many of the other teams had the UCI in their back pocket to cover up postives and share test secrets? Not Mayo, Jan, Hamilton, Hera, Contador, Landis, Zubeldia, Rusmas, Botero, Simoni, Garzelli, Vino, Nozal, Beltran, or Beloki. Basically, everyone who was anyone tested positve or was suspended at some point. While riding with Lance, you were beyond reach.

Even at that their program was incredible in that it was under heavy scruntity for so long and somehow didn't get exposed until years after the fact.

I don't beleive anyone one else could have did the same. The narrative Lance had was to golden and it resonated with non-cyclist. He got a lot of free help by people looking the other way.

 

[Zweistein]

While nobody batted an eyelash when Tex was doing his best Borat impression while riding for Astana, who would follow or believe it if a Russian was the GC star on the US Postal team?

Same goes for Mayo, Beloki, Kloden.

Would not happen.

Dave.

It wasn't a very american team as it was. Compare the team to the 7-11 team. I think Jean-Cyril Robin (French) was supposed to be their GC guy at the tour when the team started.

 

[Dave_1]

I don't think it's that simple. We saw Heras, Hamilton and Landis on and off the US Postal program. By all accounts, Armstrong was a very good responder AND he kept the best stuff to himself.

Thought Lance was pressuring his team mates to take those PEDs...now we are saying
he kept his dope to himself. He seemed quite generous to Tyler and Floyd ...sorted
them both some edgar when they were out of stock

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Like Maserati stated, Armstrong was on Ferrari juice.

The 'Kelme special' was much more effective, thats why Fuentes had such a nice bikeshop after he quitted the team. Kelme had become a mediocre team in the nineties and suddenly from 1999 onwards they were flying. If they would have had a decent TT'er they would have had a real contender to Armstrong.

It was no wonder Kelme became delivery boy for Armstrongdomestiques.

But, to be on topic, guess Hamilton would have given Ullrich a good race. Armstrong was scared as hell of him.