Young Aussies the best ever?

[Tuarts]

they may be the best australia ever had. but colombia has far more and bigger talents. problem is with australians, their talent can't climb. same with americans and new zealand, uk talent. they are all track guys, too big for climbs

Oh yes, can you tell me who the 2010 in Europe Colombian equivelant of Evans, Rogers, Porte, Lloyd were?

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Oh yes, can you tell me who the 2010 in Europe Colombian equivelant of Evans, Rogers, Porte, Lloyd were?

Ryo's talking about the list of prospects. Porte can borderline go into the set of prospects though he's a couple of years older than the other young Aussies being talked about in this thread. Evans, Rogers and Lloyd do not belong to that generation at all, they're established pros who've been around for years.

Colombia DOES have a generation of riders who look to be pretty amazing talents - Betancourt, Duarte, Henao, Urán, Quintana, Chalapud, Atapuma, Jaime Castañeda, Vergara and Sarmiento to name but a few. Those are the ones Ryo is comparing, not to the likes of Rogers and Evans, but to the likes of Meyer, Meyer, Bobridge, Matthews and co.

The Colombians match up pretty well with the Aussies in that respect - but as we've seen before, they don't necessarily travel to Europe well, and thus their potential is not fully capitalised on. Which is why we shouldn't hail a generation as golden until they've had a few years to mature in the pro ranks, as they could wind up failing to make that final step. The sport is littered with amazing prospects who took to the elite level like JaMarcus Russell or Ryan Leaf, and also with people who are still around and pretty good but never lived up to their amazing potential - Yaroslav Popovych and Mikhail Ignatiev are two that immediately spring to mind.

So yea, in terms of prospects, Colombia looks pretty good right now. But just cos they have great prospects doesn't mean that in ten years' time they'll have a huge number of top riders, just as Australia having a huge number of good prospects doesn't mean each and every one will live up to that potential.

 

[The Hitch]

Oh yes, can you tell me who the 2010 in Europe Colombian equivelant of Evans, Rogers, Porte, Lloyd were?

You lose me when you say Porte. Im a big fan of Cuddles but when you guys mention Porte in the same breath, you show that you are being blinded by Patriotism.

No Colombian equivalent to Porte?

Juan Mauricio Soler Hernandez

1 Stage Tour de France
Tour de France, King of the Mountains (2007)

Beats 1 Stage Tour of Romandie, and a day in Pink thanks to a 12 minute break.

Actually Soler cancels out Lloyd.

Porte is cancelled out by Rigoberto Uran. A far brighter prospect for the future. Crashes took him out in stage 1 of Giro but he was domestiquing for Arroyo and still beat Porte on Grappa (when Porte was fighting to keep his pink) and when he was allowed to go for it on Platz the Corones, he finished just behind Basso in 7th.

Then you have Duarte and Henao coming up.

So Dodger has 3 world tt championships (1 tainted). He hasnt impressed in monuments or Gts and in Duarte Henao and Uran you have 3 gt competitors right there.

And Rujano may be Venezuelan but his Giro podium next year will show that the days of South Americans struggling in europe are OVER.

 

[lanternrouge]

All these Aussie prospects, can any of them bat or bowl?

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

I'm not talking about the U23 level. I'm talking about when they turn pro. That's when the Colombians tend to disappear.

name me some examples??

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

Oh yes, can you tell me who the 2010 in Europe Colombian equivelant of Evans, Rogers, Porte, Lloyd were?

we are talking here about talents, porte is the youngest guy you named and he is almost 26

 

[profff]

we are talking here about talents, porte is the youngest guy you named and he is almost 26

well ryo, porte is 26 , but he started cycling late.
he is in his rookie season , so we can accept him in this thread.
we'lll see if he can improve his climbing, which is his great limits.

 

[profff]

finish line of the montegrappa stage in giro bio:
http://www.cicloweb.it/sites/default/files/immagini/10undermomenti4.jpg

 

[hrotha]

we are talking here about talents, porte is the youngest guy you named and he is almost 26

That's because you're not talking about the same thing. You're talking about raw u23 talent, Tuarts is talking about the ability of those riders to develop solid pro careers in Europe later on.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

But the problem is, the thread is not about the Aussie generation including the likes of Evans and Rogers. It's about the young Aussies. And those ARE the same generation as the Colombians being mentioned above. It's not fair to judge Colombian potential talent against Australians who've been in the pro péloton for ten years. Need to judge like against like.

 

[hrotha]

But the problem is, the thread is not about the Aussie generation including the likes of Evans and Rogers. It's about the young Aussies. And those ARE the same generation as the Colombians being mentioned above. It's not fair to judge Colombian potential talent against Australians who've been in the pro péloton for ten years. Need to judge like against like.

I don't think he was comparing Australia's seasoned pros to Colombia's new youngsters. He was comparing Australian current pro field in Europe with Colombia's, which suggests Australians have it easier to adapt for whatever reason, and extrapolated that to both Australia's and Colombia's youngsters. Such an extrapolation would suggest the Australian youngsters are more likely to enjoy consistent careers in Europe even if their raw potential is a priori smaller.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

I don't think he was comparing Australia's seasoned pros to Colombia's new youngsters. He was comparing Australian current pro field in Europe with Colombia's, which suggests Australians have it easier to adapt for whatever reason, and extrapolated that to both Australia's and Colombia's youngsters. Such an extrapolation would suggest the Australian youngsters are more likely to enjoy consistent careers in Europe even if their raw potential is a priori smaller.

True and acceptable - but the extrapolation also makes some assumptions that I am unwilling to make.

It makes the assumption that what has gone for previous generations will go for this one, i.e. that the Colombians will not adapt whereas the Australians will. Could it not be that this generation of Colombian youngsters is simply better than the last, and therefore has more chance of 'making it' like the '80s generation rather than fading to obscurity like the last generation?

It makes the assumption that because some abnormally talented Australians in the previous generation 'made it' in Europe, therefore more of the new generation of Australians will 'make it' (could it not be that Cadel Evans 'made it' simply because he's a better rider than any of the present prospects?).

I assume that the argument is, all things being equal, the Australian would adapt better than the Colombian. But that also makes the assumption that all things ARE equal, and I would argue that they are not; some of those Colombian riders appear to be better equipped than the last set of Colombian riders to make it in Europe, plus the Colombian teams look more interested in Europe than they were of late.

 

[Tuarts]

I don't think he was comparing Australia's seasoned pros to Colombia's new youngsters. He was comparing Australian current pro field in Europe with Colombia's, which suggests Australians have it easier to adapt for whatever reason, and extrapolated that to both Australia's and Colombia's youngsters. Such an extrapolation would suggest the Australian youngsters are more likely to enjoy consistent careers in Europe even if their raw potential is a priori smaller.

Quoting this saves me trouble of going back through posts.

I wasn't commenting at all at about Colombia's youngsters on the rise. From the quote from Ryo, it seemed to me that he was commenting on the current climbing talent in Europe, indicating he thinks they were greater than those from Australia. On 2010 European results, I can not see how that is possible.

Sorry if there's any confusion, probably talking about completely different things to each other. Climbing talent, I'm sure there's an abundance of it in Colombia, I just don't think you can write off the Aussies as not having any at all.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Sorry if there's any confusion, probably talking about completely different things to each other. Climbing talent, I'm sure there's an abundance of it in Colombia, I just don't think you can write off the Aussies as not having any at all.

Certainly there is climbing talent in Australia, but the thing is that a lot of the Colombians are naturally gifted climbers as a result of the geography of their homeland and the national racing calendar. Australia, like the UK, has quite a strong track focus domestically in addition to its racing calendar, and so a lot of the potential stars that we hear about are those that we know of because of the track, like Bobridge or the Meyer brothers. The skills required to be good at track at a young age aren't really reconcilable with those required to be a good climber at a young age, although some diesel-engined TT riders and sprinters can teach themselves to climb to a decent level - Rogers and Wiggins being two examples. However, the national scene in Australia and the main routes for an Australian junior to get to the pro level (and I may be wrong here, I am quite ignorant of the national road scene in Australia, so I may overstate the role of track, possibly overinfluenced by using the same arguments with regards to Britain) doesn't appear to be all that conducive to creating young climbing talents; Cadel Evans came from mountain biking before switching to the road quite late; it's also of course eminently possible that a natural-born climber just happens to be from that country even if the cycling scene and geography of that country don't suit it - Robert Gesink won't have become a talent on long, punishing climbs in his native Netherlands, and Robert Millar excelled on territory far more punishing than anything the United Kingdom has to offer.

in summary then, Colombia's national scene is much more conducive to creating climbing talents than Australia's, which has created more TT riders and sprinters to date. That doesn't preclude it creating climbers, more when exceptionally talented climbers come through its ranks than because they explicitly create those climbers.

 

[Tuarts]

Certainly there is climbing talent in Australia, but the thing is that a lot of the Colombians are naturally gifted climbers as a result of the geography of their homeland and the national racing calendar. Australia, like the UK, has quite a strong track focus domestically in addition to its racing calendar, and so a lot of the potential stars that we hear about are those that we know of because of the track, like Bobridge or the Meyer brothers. The skills required to be good at track at a young age aren't really reconcilable with those required to be a good climber at a young age, although some diesel-engined TT riders and sprinters can teach themselves to climb to a decent level - Rogers and Wiggins being two examples. However, the national scene in Australia and the main routes for an Australian junior to get to the pro level (and I may be wrong here, I am quite ignorant of the national road scene in Australia, so I may overstate the role of track, possibly overinfluenced by using the same arguments with regards to Britain) doesn't appear to be all that conducive to creating young climbing talents; Cadel Evans came from mountain biking before switching to the road quite late; it's also of course eminently possible that a natural-born climber just happens to be from that country even if the cycling scene and geography of that country don't suit it - Robert Gesink won't have become a talent on long, punishing climbs in his native Netherlands, and Robert Millar excelled on territory far more punishing than anything the United Kingdom has to offer.

in summary then, Colombia's national scene is much more conducive to creating climbing talents than Australia's, which has created more TT riders and sprinters to date. That doesn't preclude it creating climbers, more when exceptionally talented climbers come through its ranks than because they explicitly create those climbers.

I agree, 100%.

Of course but that wasn't the point I was making or disputing.

Oh yeah, more funding goes into track here too. With Olympics they get more 'return'. Tide is shifting though, roadb is gaining more focus (especially with TDU as an important UCI event). However its costing in other areas. Mountain biking has had its funding cut so who knows more guys like Cadel, maybe the calibre of Sam Hill could turn to the sport.

 

[profff]

fabio duarte from colombia is not only a climber.
he is complete rider, good uphill but also in descent. he is not bad in the "passo"
i will not be astonished if one day he will win in the ardennes, if his career develops well.
rigo uran is a good climber and he had good results in TT too.

i hope durbridge can progress as a climber.
people coming from pursuit can develop as good "passista-scalatore".
they have to loose weight and train.
but if you have a good engine ,you can develop climbing skills enough to be competitive in GTs
and nobody can exclude that people like matthews ( and degenkolb, too, ..)can develop in something else than a sprinter....
matthews was eightth in avery hard tour de l' avenir

we have just to wait-
aniway , marco pantani, one of the strongest climber of the recent history of cycling, was born in cesenatico, on the sea adriatico. very flat sandy coastline ther in romagna
you have to ride at least 40km to find the first hills, and the long and punishing climbs of the appenini ( montecarpegna was his preferred) are at least about 80km from his birhplace.
talent can grow everywhere.

 

[profff]

Certainly there is climbing talent in Australia, but the thing is that a lot of the Colombians are naturally gifted climbers as a result of the geography of their homeland and the national racing calendar. Australia, like the UK, has quite a strong track focus domestically in addition to its racing calendar, and so a lot of the potential stars that we hear about are those that we know of because of the track, like Bobridge or the Meyer brothers. The skills required to be good at track at a young age aren't really reconcilable with those required to be a good climber at a young age, ......

in summary then, Colombia's national scene is much more conducive to creating climbing talents than Australia's, which has created more TT riders and sprinters to date. That doesn't preclude it creating climbers, more when exceptionally talented climbers come through its ranks than because they explicitly create those climbers.

i agree , but i would like to underline the very important role of track in the process of formation of a cyclist.
track is of the utmost importance in teaching the cadence, bike handling, right position, the right way to turn the pedals ( sorry for my english, i mean the right technique of pedaling).
i think that experience on track is mandatory for any young cyclist and not only for sprinters and tt specialist coming from pursuit.

some of the best colombians ( botero, but also uran ) have had experience on track. obviously that is not common for colombians: imagine a guy like soler that has great engine but is completely unable to khandle a bike, with some experience and training on track...

 

[Tuarts]

fabio duarte from colombia is not only a climber.
he is complete rider, good uphill but also in descent. he is not bad in the "passo"
i will not be astonished if one day he will win in the ardennes, if his career develops well.
rigo uran is a good climber and he had good results in TT too.

i hope durbridge can progress as a climber.
people coming from pursuit can develop as good "passista-scalatore".
they have to loose weight and train.
but if you have a good engine ,you can develop climbing skills enough to be competitive in GTs
and nobody can exclude that people like matthews ( and degenkolb, too, ..)can develop in something else than a sprinter....
matthews was eightth in avery hard tour de l' avenir

we have just to wait-
aniway , marco pantani, one of the strongest climber of the recent history of cycling, was born in cesenatico, on the sea adriatico. very flat sandy coastline ther in romagna
you have to ride at least 40km to find the first hills, and the long and punishing climbs of the appenini ( montecarpegna was his preferred) are at least about 80km from his birhplace.
talent can grow everywhere.

80km to the appenines? Luxury

200/220km to the 'hills' from here.

Actual mountains with roads going up them (as opposed to walk tracks)...500km easily. Next after that would be Victorian Alps

 

[profff]

80km to the appenines? Luxury

200/220km to the 'hills' from here.

Actual mountains with roads going up them (as opposed to walk tracks)...500km easily. Next after that would be Victorian Alps

i understand what you mean
i have been to australia
aniway, in italy it is considered pretty strange that the best climber comes from a town being on a flat coastline and not from one of the many montainous region of the country.

different standards

 

[auscyclefan94]

Most of the current Australian youngsters are fast, have a good time trial, or a mixture of both. That's probably due to their track background. There isn't really any GC talent coming up, though. The only young Aussie climber I know of is Timmy Roe. Matthews is also a pretty decent climber, but for now he's more likely to develop into a sprinter. So it really depends on what you value in a crop of talent to consider Australia the most promising nation.

Unfortunately I have to agree with you. I would like to see some more emphasis on getting some climbers coming through for australia

 

[Tuarts]

The best thing your man-crush can do for Aussie Cycling (since he's too tight-fisted to spare 38 seconds) is convince Sam Hill to switch disciplines.