Young Aussies the best ever?

[Libertine Seguros]

The other thing is, Hitch's list of Italians was only those who'd won monuments or GTs; there are a great deal of other Italians from that generation who carved out successful careers without ever being as successful:

Dario Andriotto (1972) - still riding today with Acqua e Sapone
Fortunato Baliani (1974) - had a few successes in the Giro, riding for Miche
Wladimir Belli (1970) - podiums at Romandie, Suisse and País Vasco, top 10s at Giro and Tour
Alessandro Bertolini (1972) - winner of a Giro stage and multiple domestic wins including 2 wins at the Giro dell'Apennino
Marzio Bruseghin (1974) - podium GC and stage wins of the Giro, top 10 of the Vuelta
Francesco Casagrande (1970) - 2nd and KOM at the Giro, top 10 of Vuelta, multiple wins of Trentino, winner of Suisse, San Sebastián and lots more besides
Mirko Celestino (1974) - winner of Lombardia and 2nd at Sanremo
Dario Cioni (1974) - 4th in the Giro
Massimo Codol (1973) - still riding for Acqua e Sapone after 12 years
Dario Frigo (1972) - winner of Paris-Nice, multiple winner of Romandie, stage winner of Tour and Giro
Massimiliano Gentili (1971) - just retired after final year with Ceramica Flaminia
Massimo Giunti (1974) - many years of solid service, now provisionally suspended
Fabrizio Guidi (1972) - winner of Giro stage, multiple Intergiros and 2nd in points jersey race
Luca Mazzanti (1974) - still racing at Katyusha after many years of good results
Eddy Mazzoleni (1973) - Giro podium
Cristian Moreni (1972) - many stage podiums at the Giro
Andrea Noè (1969) - 4th in the Giro twice, still riding now
Leonardo Piepoli (1971) - stages of all 3 GTs, Giro KOM, top 10 Vuelta
Ivan Quaranta (1974) - multiple Giro stages
Filippo Simeoni (1971) - Vuelta stage winner, national champ, was still riding until 2009
Massimo Strazzer (1969) - multiple Intergiro winner, Giro points jersey and multiple Giro stage winner
Matteo Tosatto (1974) - many years of consistent service
Marco Velo (1974) - likewise
Stefano Zanini (1969) - Intergiro winner

Even if ALL of the current Aussie prospects turn out as good as they can be, they'll struggle to beat that generation.

 

[profff]

about hitch' s italians list and libertine adjunts:

the list it is not completely correct: it mixes riders of different generations, with different backgrounds
a very strong generation includes pantani , simoni, rebellin, wladimir belli, ivan gotti, bartoli. in that generation the strongest in the U23 were considered belli and alessandro bertolini , who had deceiving career compared to the others. he came back into the light in the last years with win in giro stages and italian semiclassics.

another generation of strong riders, with different story and background includes bettini, diluca, figueras, malberti ( not in that order, but the first four at lugano worlds U23, with malberti winning the crono), savoldelli, garzelli. malberti was considered the great italian hope for gt, he was compared to indurain according to italian experts and he ended up doing nothing. paolo bettini was the less considered of that bunch, he started the career as bartoli's domestique and he was able to race on his own only after his first liege win ( he was able to run the doyenne on his own just because bartoli was injured..).
figuera was also very considered, but he was unlucky and had not the right mind strenght.

that just to put things in the right historical perspective.
italy at that time was by far the leading nation in cycling, for many reason.
even considering that, some riders which were considered as "fuoriclasse" did less than expected.

australia today is a nation in which cycling is growing very fast.
the riders come from a different bakground and it is very difficult to imagine what they can do in the road peloton.
but they already had classy riders, from mcgee to evans ( i do not forget anderson and the oldies,but they were isolated cases), so aussies now know that they can be successful in the road peloton.
they have a better chance to know what is needed to success.
a culture of good proriders is a growing process and in my opinion they have a good chance to be a leading nation in few years.
they have been a leading nation in track cycling and they can do the same on the road. i
they just need luck and dedication...

 

[The Hitch]

about hitch' s italians list and libertine adjunts:

the list it is not completely correct: it mixes riders of different generations, with different backgrounds

Generation isnt an exact thing. I just took riders over a 5 year period. If you want, you can take away Ivan Gotti and you have 9 great champions from a 4 year period.

In 1994 they would have all been 20-24, and not a single one of them had won a major yet. I think you could have called that a generation of up and comers and i think looking back you can call them a generation of success.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

about hitch' s italians list and libertine adjunts:

the list it is not completely correct: it mixes riders of different generations, with different backgrounds

But the original hypothesis of the thread blended the likes of Matthews with the likes of Porte, who are also different "generations" if you take that narrow definition. I don't really call a 2-3 year age group a "generation", more 5-6 and possibly even more.

 

[pmcg76]

Generation isnt an exact thing. I just took riders over a 5 year period. If you want, you can take away Ivan Gotti and you have 9 great champions from a 4 year period.

In 1994 they would have all been 20-24, and not a single one of them had won a major yet. I think you could have called that a generation of up and comers and i think looking back you can call them a generation of success.

Well if we take just the riders who turned pro post Olympics 92, it would still include:

Pantani
Bartoli
Simoni
Casagrande
Rebellin
Casartelli
Gotti
Peron
Lanfranchi
Belli
Guerini
Piccoli

Not a bad generation even if its a bit tainted now.

 

[hrotha]

another generation of strong riders, with different story and background includes bettini, diluca, figueras, malberti ( not in that order, but the first four at lugano worlds U23, with malberti winning the crono)

A correction: the first four Italian riders at the Lugano u23 WC RR were Figueras, Sgambelluri, Sironi and Bettini. On top of that, Commesso was 10th. In the TT, Sironi was 1st and Sgambelluri was 2nd. Di Luca is from the generation of Valkenburg 1998, together with Basso and Nocentini. I'm not sure about Malberti.

 

[profff]

Generation isnt an exact thing. I just took riders over a 5 year period. If you want, you can take away Ivan Gotti and you have 9 great champions from a 4 year period.

In 1994 they would have all been 20-24, and not a single one of them had won a major yet. I think you could have called that a generation of up and comers and i think looking back you can call them a generation of success.

in italy they are considered two different generations of riders, because a rider 24 in 1994 is a 2nd ( or first year) neopro, while a rider 20 ins in his first o second years as amateur ( or Under, as we call them now).
they are different generations because in the early 90' , PEDs and training methods completely changed the things. the pantani generation met new things in the first years as pros ( or in the last years as under) , while the bettini generation was able to take advantage of these changings in the first years as under, while they were in the formation period.
IMHO, that makes a great difference.

but your considerations in general are right and i agree with you that it will be very difficult to equal the italians for the young aussies.

i just wanted to explain that IMHO, these you cited are different generations.
a generation of rider is not a 5 year period. it is a group of riders that experiences the same races and methods of training at comparable ages. that is for pantani,simoni and belli and that is for bettini, diluca, figueras...

i keep my point, even if it is obvious that a certain point careers overlaps and rebellin (1979-71 generation) faces in the same races di luca (1973-74 generation)as it happened for simoni and garzelli....

but again i agree with you about the topic subject.

 

[profff]

A correction: the first four Italian riders at the Lugano u23 WC RR were Figueras, Sgambelluri, Sironi and Bettini. On top of that, Commesso was 10th. In the TT, Sironi was 1st and Sgambelluri was 2nd. Di Luca is from the generation of Valkenburg 1998, together with Basso and Nocentini. I'm not sure about Malberti.

sorry , you are right., i mixed up the names.
i forgot sgambelluri, another rider with a deceiving career in comparison to expectations.
malberti belonged to that age group.
thank you for correcting me.
i did thrust too much my memories without checking.
but the point does not change.
to me , the 69-71 group is different from the others and it by far the strongest.

 

[simo1733]

sorry , you are right., i mixed up the names.
i forgot sgambelluri, another rider with a deceiving career in comparison to expectations.
malberti belonged to that age group.
thank you for correcting me.
i did thrust too much my memories without checking.
but the point does not change.
to me , the 69-71 group is different from the others and it by far the strongest.

I wonder what sort of career fabio casartelli would have had.Born 1970,1992 olympic champion.

 

[The Hitch]

I wonder what sort of career fabio casartelli would have had.Born 1970,1992 olympic champion.

Interesting question.

Based on Fantasy and Romance novels, and some disney films and a tea spoon of supersticion, i think had tragedy not occured in 1995 then the following would have happened.

Fabio Casartelli, US postal rider and olympic champion at 22, would have got cancer in 96, beat it, met Dr Ferrari, won the Tour de France 7 times in a row and retired.

 

[simo1733]

Interesting question.

Based on Fantasy and Romance novels, and some disney films and a tea spoon of supersticion, i think had tragedy not occured in 1995 then the following would have happened.

Fabio Casartelli, US postal rider and olympic champion at 22, would have got cancer in 96, beat it, met Dr Ferrari, won the Tour de France 7 times in a row and retired.

Or he could have ended up like Jamie Burrow who joined lance in 2000 as the No1 ranked U23 in the world.He never made to the top though and is now a pro sportif rider.I guess he didn't get introduced to the preparatori.

 

[ingsve]

Or he could have ended up like Jamie Burrow who joined lance in 2000 as the No1 ranked U23 in the world.He never made to the top though and is now a pro sportif rider.I guess he didn't get introduced to the preparatori.

Hmm, I wonder, has any young rider ever developed into a good rider on one of Armstrongs teams? I can't think of anyone right now at least.

 

[Christian]

Denmark has a really good generation right now in my opinion with C.A. Sorensen, Fuglsang and Breschel, Alex Rasmussen, Morkov, maybe Guldhammer ... and I'm probably forgetting some

 

[theyoungest]

Denmark has a really good generation right now in my opinion with C.A. Sorensen, Fuglsang and Breschel, Alex Rasmussen, Morkov, maybe Guldhammer ... and I'm probably forgetting some

They're all quite "old", though. Except for Guldhammer, but that guy isn't exactly going places, right now.

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

they may be the best australia ever had. but colombia has far more and bigger talents. problem is with australians, their talent can't climb. same with americans and new zealand, uk talent. they are all track guys, too big for climbs

 

[theyoungest]

they may be the best australia ever had. but colombia has far more and bigger talents. problem is with australians, their talent can't climb. same with americans and new zealand, uk talent. they are all track guys, too big for climbs

What they can do, however, or at least seem to be able to do much better than their Colombian counterparts, is adapt to European racing.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

But we don't know that yet - some of them are already doing so, others are still youngsters in Australia, how are we supposed to know how they're going to develop? What you do in the juniors and U23s is irrelevant if you can't adapt to the seniors. The sport is littered with great prospects who just never managed to make the step up.

That's why we can't really say if this is the best ever generation until they've actually been in the pro péloton for a while. I mean, they have the potential to be Australia's best ever generation, but if they ALL fail to adapt (which I very much doubt, but bear with me here) they'll still not be as good as Stuie O'Grady's or Cuddles' generation, despite enormous potential.

 

[Kwibus]

I think Matthews is the most interesting talent and I really hope he will develop into a great allround rider. The fact that he and Rabo stated a few times that he will focus on sprinting next season is quite a shock to me.

A talent that is able to finish 6th overal in 'l Avenir and twice 8th in the mountain stages shows that he's incredibly allround if you ask me. Together with an incredible TT and sprint why would he focus on just the sprint?

He absolutely should keep on improving his sprint, but why just the sprint?

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

What they can do, however, or at least seem to be able to do much better than their Colombian counterparts, is adapt to European racing.

sprints and itt yes, climbs, no.

 

[theyoungest]

sprints and itt yes, climbs, no.

At least the Aussies do well at their specialty both at home and overseas.

 

[profff]

At least the Aussies do well at their specialty both at home and overseas.

you'll see duarte and betancur this year, if their team will be invited to the right races.
anyway , matthews, a great rider imho, has already seen colombian climbing talent in action, in europe, at the tour de l' avenir.
ask him, if you dont believe to ryo.

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

Are we talking about below 25? Because Gesink is still 24 isn't he?
Still I'm surprised you say this as a sworn anti dutch maffia person
I must say that Australia for a non-traditional cycling country is delivering great riders. Australia always finds it's way into the top of any sport which is impressive. Good mentality I guess.

Plus even I don't believe that. We have a good generation, better than the failing generation of Karsten Kroon and co and also better than the very narrow generation of Boogerd/E.Dekker/van Bon/Van Heeswijk.
But nowhere near, NOWHERE near, the generation of great Dutch riders in the beginning of the 80-ties.
Ofcourse, with the sport becoming very much more international than in the 70-ties or 80-ties, the succes achieved by the Belgians in the 70-ties and Dutchies in the beginning 80-ties are impossible for those countries to recreate. I don't think we'll ever have such times again. There's simply too much countries now where cycling is at a very good level.

And I think Australia has a wider talent pool than the Netherlands. But not the best generation of all countries. Besides, it's hard to predict what'll become of all those talents.
You do know only a few of them ever make the top?

 

[profff]

i think that kai reus was a great talent. his bad luck deprived the dutch of a possible great rider

i agree that it is almost impossible for traditional cycling countries to recreate the successful dominating generations of the past, being the sport much more international than in 70ties and 80ties

 

[theyoungest]

you'll see duarte and betancur this year, if their team will be invited to the right races.
anyway , matthews, a great rider imho, has already seen colombian climbing talent in action, in europe, at the tour de l' avenir.
ask him, if you dont believe to ryo.

I'm not talking about the U23 level. I'm talking about when they turn pro. That's when the Colombians tend to disappear.

 

[simo1733]

they may be the best australia ever had. but colombia has far more and bigger talents. problem is with australians, their talent can't climb. same with americans and new zealand, uk talent. they are all track guys, too big for climbs

You are right up to a point which is why Dan Martin rides for Ireland instead of GB