Zabriskie and Van de Velde already sang

[Ninety5rpm]

A Washington Post article states:

At least two people have corroborated some of Landis's sweeping claims regarding doping, according to an individual with knowledge of the investigation, who along with several others spoke on condition of anonymity for this story because they were not authorized to provide information. The additional evidence has caused the probe -- which, when it officially opened in January had nothing to do with Armstrong, according to sources -- to pick up pace in recent weeks.

The same article also states:

Attorneys for former Armstrong teammates George Hincapie and Tyler Hamilton say Novitzky contacted them, but no meetings have occurred. Former Armstrong teammates Dave Zabriskie and Christian Vande Velde also have been contacted, according to people with knowledge of the investigation.

Note that it says "no meetings have occurred" with respect to GH and TH, but not DZ and CVDV. I think that makes it clear that the "at least two people who have corroborated [what Landis claims]" referred to above must be these DZ and CVDV.

Link:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/07/16/AR2010071603512.html

When you build your life on a house of cards, you better watch very carefully how you treat anyone who is in a position to knock out one of those cards...

 

[jimmypop]

Is this why CVV went home to "evaluate his life" with the support of Vaughters?

 

[DirtyWorks]

Not so fast...

..what Novitzky is really interested in is not whether Lance Armstrong used EPO to win the Tour de France -- that's not his mandate --

The "never tested positive" claim will probably survive. I think its reasonable to believe that the UCI wants this claim to survive and will do everything it can to make it so.

The Pharmstrong "donations" to the UCI is probably a dead end too. No crime, no one to prosecute it.

but whether there was tax evasion, contract fraud, importing drugs, using money to buy pharmaceuticals,"

It would be great if a few slow motion perp walks come out of it. Pharmstrong's legal militia can legitimately threaten a long, expensive trial with messy election battles as the side-show. I think Pharmstrong capitulates to the prosecutor with no public details of a plea deal and if such a thing is possible, a sealed record.

That's my prediction. I hope it's wrong.

 

[Fourier]

I never thought this investigation was for real but now it looks like it has some traction. The funny thing is that although I've always hoped LA and JB get caught, it feels kind of weird. All fans and competitors got screwed all this time, now maybe we will have confirmation of that. Nobody really wins in this.
"have you ever felt you've been cheated..."

 

[Anonymous]

A Washington Post article states:



The same article also states:


Note that it says "no meetings have occurred" with respect to GH and TH, but not DZ and CVDV. I think that makes it clear that the "at least two people who have corroborated [what Landis claims]" referred to above must be these DZ and CVDV.

Link:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/07/16/AR2010071603512.html

When you build your life on a house of cards, you better watch very carefully how you treat anyone who is in a position to knock out one of those cards...

very much depends how you read that.

i read it as

Attorneys say that GH and TY have been contacted but no meetings

and as a seperate statement

"sources" say that DZ and VDV have been contacted (but no further info)

I think you are reading too much into it.

 

[ThaiPanda]

I never thought this investigation was for real but now it looks like it has some traction. The funny thing is that although I've always hoped LA and JB get caught, it feels kind of weird. All fans and competitors got screwed all this time, now maybe we will have confirmation of that. Nobody really wins in this.
"have you ever felt you've been cheated..."

Yes, Jan Ullrich, Basso, Vino, Pantani, Beloki, Verenque, etc. they all got cheated by Armstrong.

Stupid fans deserve to be screwed.

 

[Fourier]

Yes, Jan Ullrich, Basso, Vino, Pantani, Beloki, Verenque, etc. they all got cheated by Armstrong.

Stupid fans deserve to be screwed.

That's part of why it is bittersweet, there is no gracious second to look back to and praise.
even if you were not a fan of LA or USPS, they still got the results and prevented somebody else (doped or not) from winning.
I think Van de Velde has less to loose since he's on his way out and such revelations have had no impact on people going into pro-cycling as a DS or consultant (Riis, Zabel...). I guess that whole "evaluate his life" means he is going behind the scenes instead of actively riding. Same for GH. Tyler is in a different position since he is actually banned, credibility issues.
One thing is for sure, it might be a great show to listen to DZ on a witness stand.

 

[ThaiPanda]

That's part of why it is bittersweet, there is no gracious second to look back to and praise.

Hey man, I was just responding to what you wrote and you didn't write this earlier.

"All fans and competitors" is a little bit different than your reply. This recorded internet stuff is a beeotch, huh?

 

[Beech Mtn]

I interpreted the article from the Washington Post this way (quotes are from Post article):

At least two people have corroborated some of Landis's sweeping claims regarding doping,

I am assuming these two mentioned above are Frankie Andreu (named in NY Times article, I believe) and Jonathan Vaughters (the person in the Times article who didn't want to be named because he still works in cycling). If not Vaughters, the person could possibly be Matt White. From the article, it sounds like these two have already met with investigators and corroborated something. These appear to not be active cyclists (retired cyclists, staff, or something else).

Attorneys for former Armstrong teammates George Hincapie and Tyler Hamilton say Novitzky contacted them, but no meetings have occurred. Former Armstrong teammates Dave Zabriskie and Christian Vande Velde also have been contacted, according to people with knowledge of the investigation.

I am assuming that all four have been asked to meet with Novitzky, and the Post was only able to get a comment from GH's and TH's lawyers. Did not get any verification from representatives for DZ and CVV. I am assuming that Novitzky will meet with the four after the TdF is over, although he could presumably meet with Tyler and Christian sooner, since they aren't racing in France right now.

The probe is expected to intensify after the Tour de France, when cyclists return to the United States.

Yep, sounds like meetings with cyclists will take place after the Tour.

Late in 2008 and early in 2009

Check out the dates here. Does it refer only to USADA winning doping cases, or to the start of the cooperation between Novitzky and USADA regarding investigating Michael Ball and Rock Racing?

Last winter, a formal investigation with Ball as the target was launched, according to sources.

Again, check the date. It's different from those mentioned above. But still an indication that Novitzky was going after Ball/RR prior to the LA investigation.

In the ensuing months, the probe was so tightly centered on Ball that Novitzky interviewed at least one professional cycling figure who had connections to Ball and Armstrong without asking a single question about Armstrong

Was this Floyd? Frankie? Tyler? Someone else with ties to both LA and MB?

In May, after having exchanged e-mails with Armstrong in which he threatened to go public with doping allegations, Landis finally stepped forward.

Not sure I buy this timeline. Other articles made it sound like Floyd was cooperating back in January 2010. Not sure whose timeline re. Floyd's participation is correct.

"A couple of guys have confirmed components of what [Landis] said, but what Novitzky is really interested in is not whether Lance Armstrong used EPO to win the Tour de France -- that's not his mandate -- but whether there was tax evasion, contract fraud, importing drugs, using money to buy pharmaceuticals," said an individual with knowledge of the investigation. "That's why the investigation has gone global."

So again, mention of corroboration of parts of Floyd's allegations (but we don't know which parts). And the kicker - the investigation isn't about doping during bike races per se, but about whether there are crimes regarding the money, taxes, fraud, and possibly illegal dealing/trafficking in prescription drugs.

Federal officials have discussed whether any crimes they might uncover would fit within the Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act (RICO), according to several sources.

Here it is - looking for RICO charges.

/interpretation and speculation

 

[Fourier]

is it possible that the michael ball investigation triggered Landis' e-mails? How much involvement between Ball and FL took place for the feds to look into FL?
It is an interesting question which individual was involved with ball that had the armstrong connection and spilled the beans.

 

[tofino]

Tyler

This is from the second page of the article.

In the ensuing months, the probe was so tightly centered on Ball that Novitzky interviewed at least one professional cycling figure who had connections to Ball and Armstrong without asking a single question about Armstrong, according to a person with knowledge of the interview.

That has to be Tyler Hamilton.

 

[Colm.Murphy]

Here it is - looking for RICO charges.

/interpretation and speculation

...and there it is.

Does anyone really think that the govt is happy about being fleeced out of tens of millions of dollars?

Does anyone want to venture a guess as to how hard and how far the US Govt will pursue a defendant when they've made off with tens of millions of govt money?

I think they will go very, very far to uncover what is turning out to be a massive fraud foisted by the Armstrong/Weisel/Ochowicz/Stapleton/Knaggs group.

Next, we'll hear Bruyneel stating he, also, "just worked there"...

 

[Beech Mtn]

This is from the second page of the article.



That has to be Tyler Hamilton.

I thought it might be Frankie because of this:

From the confirmation that Tyler Hamilton signed with the team to speculation that Mario Cipollini was in negotiations, the off-season has been tumultuous for the team - and the latest shoe to drop was the mutual separation between director sportif Frankie Andreu and Ball.

"Before Christmas they made some business strategy decisions with me and other members, and that made it obvious to me where they were heading," Andreu told Cyclingnews regarding his reasons for leaving. "Since then I was left out of the majority decisions."

Andreu's departure is one indication of the perceptive sea change for the team - from a new, alternative team with exciting prospects to one that is pushing boundaries, possibly too far.

But that is just a guess on my part.

 

[goober]

I am assuming these two mentioned above are Frankie Andreu (named in NY Times article, I believe) and Jonathan Vaughters (the person in the Times article who didn't want to be named because he still works in cycling). If not Vaughters, the person could possibly be Matt White. From the article, it sounds like these two have already met with investigators and corroborated something. These appear to not be active cyclists (retired cyclists, staff, or something else).

I think you should pay more attention to Rock Racing.

 

[Squares]

Does anyone really think that the govt is happy about being fleeced out of tens of millions of dollars?

Does anyone want to venture a guess as to how hard and how far the US Govt will pursue a defendant when they've made off with tens of millions of govt money?

I think they will go very, very far to uncover what is turning out to be a massive fraud foisted by the Armstrong/Weisel/Ochowicz/Stapleton/Knaggs group.

If the government really cared about being fleeced, they would be pursuing more investigations of Halliburton who fleeced them on a much greater scale.

The Postal sponsorship was given to provide advertisement and elevate the US Postal name in Europe. It is hard to make the case that they didn't get the exposure in the news that they expected. The US Postal Service did get the level of advertisement and exposure and perhaps even more given that they were the sponsor through 6 of the 7 wins.

The closest thing that this can come to is prosecution using the "honest services" laws that were just struck down by the Supreme Court.

There is no way to prosecute LA for sporting fraud, or every pro football/baseball/basketball player ever caught with steroids would be in jail (Roger Clemmons anyone?) and all FL's claims relate to incidents that occurred in Europe, outside US jurisdiction.

So, what is the exact charge you think they will get him on?

 

[MacRoadie]

If the government really cared about being fleeced, they would be pursuing more investigations of Halliburton who fleeced them on a much greater scale.

The Postal sponsorship was given to provide advertisement and elevate the US Postal name in Europe. It is hard to make the case that they didn't get the exposure in the news that they expected. The US Postal Service did get the level of advertisement and exposure and perhaps even more given that they were the sponsor through 6 of the 7 wins.

The closest thing that this can come to is prosecution using the "honest services" laws that were just struck down by the Supreme Court.

There is no way to prosecute LA for sporting fraud, or every pro football/baseball/basketball player ever caught with steroids would be in jail (Roger Clemmons anyone?) and all FL's claims relate to incidents that occurred in Europe, outside US jurisdiction.

So, what is the exact charge you think they will get him on?

Maybe you should call or email Novitzky and the AG. Give them a few pointers and save them a few bucks. Obviously they are way out of their league and could use some guidance.

 

[SpartacusRox]

A Washington Post article states:



The same article also states:


Note that it says "no meetings have occurred" with respect to GH and TH, but not DZ and CVDV. I think that makes it clear that the "at least two people who have corroborated [what Landis claims]" referred to above must be these DZ and CVDV.

Link:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/07/16/AR2010071603512.html

When you build your life on a house of cards, you better watch very carefully how you treat anyone who is in a position to knock out one of those cards...

So you are arguing from a point of silence? Not a particularly strong position.
secondly you automatically assume that because people are interviewed they will automatically corroborate the Landis version of the world. It would be quite easy for say DZ to say he was aware of doping practices going on but that he had never seen or been involved in them himself. at the end of the day a lot of this is going to be one persons word against anothers.

The only thing that is clear to me from your post is that you are twisting insubstantial comments in the press to say what you want.

 

[Race Radio]

Yes, Jan Ullrich, Basso, Vino, Pantani, Beloki, Verenque, etc. they all got cheated by Armstrong.

Did any of these riders give a $500,000 payoff to the UCI? Did they get advanced notice of Out of Competition testing? How many positives did the UCI erase of Ulrich's?

Did the UCI hire one of Verburggen's friends to write a report clearing him of OP? Nope. Did the US press relentless hound Armstrong like the German press did Ulrich and the French press did Virenque? Nope, they ignored the mountain of evidence and fed the myth.

 

[Colm.Murphy]

If the government really cared about being fleeced, they would be pursuing more investigations of Halliburton who fleeced them on a much greater scale.

The Postal sponsorship was given to provide advertisement and elevate the US Postal name in Europe. It is hard to make the case that they didn't get the exposure in the news that they expected. The US Postal Service did get the level of advertisement and exposure and perhaps even more given that they were the sponsor through 6 of the 7 wins.

The closest thing that this can come to is prosecution using the "honest services" laws that were just struck down by the Supreme Court.

There is no way to prosecute LA for sporting fraud, or every pro football/baseball/basketball player ever caught with steroids would be in jail (Roger Clemmons anyone?) and all FL's claims relate to incidents that occurred in Europe, outside US jurisdiction.

So, what is the exact charge you think they will get him on?

I think you need to read up on what a US RICO charge is all about.

The basis is fraud. The govt would not have continued with their sponsorship had they known the team was doping. The team withheld that fact and continued to conspire to take an increasing amount of money, under the pretense they were abiding with all laws (of sport and public).

Once the fraud is established, adding the RICO charge could make this very difficult indeed.

This link spells out what it is and how it works: http://www.ricoact.com/ricoact/nutshell.asp

Before you tell us all "how hard it is" or "how unlikely it is", I think you should read through the criteria necessary to bring the charge, and then compare that to what USPS did over those years.

If the riders and staff spill the beans on the scheme, the mgmt is toast, specifically Armstrong, Stapleton, Knaggs, Bruyneel and guessing also Osipow and Gorski.

Which one of those will toss the others under the carriage? Will they all go to jail for Armstrong? I think No.


Toast.

 

[SpartacusRox]

Maybe you should call or email Novitzky and the AG. Give them a few pointers and save them a few bucks. Obviously they are way out of their league and could use some guidance.

Lol great reply to a well made point

You guys are such dreamers if you think this is going to do anything except suck up a lot of taxpayer money for no outcome and to the general public make Armstrong look like the victim. It's going to be a fun filled few months or more coming up.

 

[SpartacusRox]

I think you need to read up on what a US RICO charge is all about.

The basis is fraud. The govt would not have continued with their sponsorship had they known the team was doping. The team withheld that fact and continued to conspire to take an increasing amount of money, under the pretense they were abiding with all laws (of sport and public).

Once the fraud is established, adding the RICO charge could make this very difficult indeed.

This link spells out what it is and how it works: http://www.ricoact.com/ricoact/nutshell.asp

Before you tell us all "how hard it is" or "how unlikely it is", I think you should read through the criteria necessary to bring the charge, and then compare that to what USPS did over those years.

If the riders and staff spill the beans on the scheme, the mgmt is toast, specifically Armstrong, Stapleton, Knaggs, Bruyneel and guessing also Osipow and Gorski.

Which one of those will toss the others under the carriage? Will they all go to jail for Armstrong? I think No.


Toast.

Colm, there you go again going of half cocked.

The word missing in your post is ALLEGED. Don't write stuff up as if it is already a proven fact when you are well aware that it is no such thing. You set up the immediate assumption that the 'fraud' has already been proven and then ask the rhetorical question of "will they all go to jail for Armstrong?" This is a blatant example of the sort of deceptive nonsense that is posted on here every day. Allegations are not facts until proven 'beyond reasonable doubt' in a court of law. This investigation in whatever stage it is currently at is light years from that point.

Just trying to keep the baying hounds honest with a little reality checking

 

[Ferminal]

Lol great reply to a well made point

You guys are such dreamers if you think this is going to do anything except suck up a lot of taxpayer money for no outcome and to the general public make Armstrong look like the victim. It's going to be a fun filled few months or more coming up.

So Bagster, do you still think Armstrong has never taken PEDs?

 

[Colm.Murphy]

So you are arguing from a point of silence? Not a particularly strong position.
secondly you automatically assume that because people are interviewed they will automatically corroborate the Landis version of the world. It would be quite easy for say DZ to say he was aware of doping practices going on but that he had never seen or been involved in them himself. at the end of the day a lot of this is going to be one persons word against anothers.

The only thing that is clear to me from your post is that you are twisting insubstantial comments in the press to say what you want.

For guys like TH and George, riders who were there during the Tour and for many years, I think it comes down to the decision to be named a co-conspirator in the fraud, or get immunity. Or perjure yourself, contempt yourself or obstruct.

What you are failing to realize is that this is not some penny-ante process. This is as serious as it gets, highest stakes table. One bad decision, one poorly advised statement and these guys are in a very bad spot.

Another way to look at it is if you are counsel for TH or GH, given what is at stake, would you do anything but tell them the totality of the entire truth?

Continuing to deny that this issue is as serious as most of us recognize it to be, and that there is some embellishment or overstatement by Landis is pure and intentional ignorance.

I think the progress the Feds have been making should convince you of that.

 

[Colm.Murphy]

Colm, there you go again going of half cocked.

The word missing in your post is ALLEGED. Don't write stuff up as if it is already a proven facts when you are well aware that it is no such thing.

Just trying to keep the baying hounds honest

Add your own qualifiers. I write what I want. Read it as you see fit and take it for what it is: my opinion.

 

[ThaiPanda]

Did any of these riders give a $500,000 payoff to the UCI? Did they get advanced notice of Out of Competition testing? How many positives did the UCI erase of Ulrich's?
.

LOL. Yes, I am sure Ullrich was as clean as a whistle until 2006, and he got hung up in that pesky little OP thing after LA retired.

Sounds like LA is the one that got cheated. JU, Basso, etc. didn't have any positives before 2005 either and they apparently didn't have to pay anything.