Zipp Firecrest Clincher

[Boeing]

Anyone here with significant miles on them? enough to make an objective review?

 

[dolophonic]

Heard they are good..

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

Zipp rims are junk. There are about half a dozen shops just in Denver alone liquidating their entire Zipp inventories. Their carbon is soft to begin with, biggest downfall of Zipp rims are that the spoke holes are drilled, which makes for a really weak junction between rim and spoke. Lots and lots of nipples pulled through Zipp rims. Go with ENVE rims instead, all these shops are replacing Zipp with ENVE for one simple reason, spoke holes are molded instead of drilled, much stronger than anything else currently out there.

I see ENVE 45's in your future......

 

[Fiemme]

This is a bit off topic, but how does the wall of a carbon clincher hold up under the stress of hard breaking. I can underrstand a carbon tubular maintaining structural integrity as the top of the braking surface is supported.

Does the braking feel soft or sponge like when under load?

 

[veganrob]

Just say no to Zipp wheels. +1 as RDV4 says. I've rebuilt so many Zipp wheels it is not funny. Replaced so many bearings. They are junk. Don't drink the kool-aid.
Get Enve.

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

This is a bit off topic, but how does the wall of a carbon clincher hold up under the stress of hard breaking. I can underrstand a carbon tubular maintaining structural integrity as the top of the braking surface is supported.

Does the braking feel soft or sponge like when under load?

Not off topic, good question though pertaining to carbon clinchers and brake performance. The walls hold up fine, but carbon does wear much faster than aluminum. The biggest problems with carbon braking surface tubular or clincher, is brake fade under hard braking, and lack of power in the wet. The two most important reasons for the push to road disk brakes, and this would eliminate the need for reinforced and treated braking surfaces for rim brakes. Needless to say most of us in the mountains do not train daily on carbon rims unless we're sponsored or live in Cherry Creek.

 

[Night Rider]

Another -1 to the zipps from me, would never buy another set.

The new Smart Enve clinchers are out in a few months, hold out for those.

 

[Fiemme]

Thanks for the info RDV. I've been involved in cycling for a long time but never used carbon rims. Still can't understand the need to spend +$1000's when the weight savings are very minimal and the durability very limitied.

You mentioned that the brakes fade under hard breaking. Is this due to the Cork composite brake pads or the heat generated by hard braking and effecting the composition of the carbon rim or a bit of both.

As for having disk brakes on raod wheels, would this not contradict the reason for carbon rims (reduced weight). I would have thought that an aluminium rimmed wheel built to the UCI minimum benchmark would be lighter and more durable than a wheel with disk brakes or a wheel with carbon rims for that matter

I'm assuming Cherry Creek is a bit of an upmarket town.

 

[DirtyWorks]

biggest downfall of Zipp rims are that the spoke holes are drilled, which makes for a really weak junction between rim and spoke. Lots and lots of nipples pulled through Zipp rims.

Not a challenge or anything, but what's the difference between drilling and molding besides some resin? Is there a shape/depth to the molded spoke hole?

 

[Race Radio]

This is a bit off topic, but how does the wall of a carbon clincher hold up under the stress of hard breaking. I can underrstand a carbon tubular maintaining structural integrity as the top of the braking surface is supported.

Does the braking feel soft or sponge like when under load?

RDV covered it well.

You also have the heat issue. For carbon clinchers the breaking surface is also integral to keeping the tire on. As carbon does not dissipate heat as well as alloy the chances of a blowout on a long descent increase.

Enve are the way to go.

 

[laziali]

Everything RDV said, plus Zipps look sh*t on a road bike (but, somehow, magic underneath Spartacus on his TT rig ...) Let's compare:

(admittedly, on a truly unlovely frame)

with:

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

Thanks for the info RDV. I've been involved in cycling for a long time but never used carbon rims. Still can't understand the need to spend +$1000's when the weight savings are very minimal and the durability very limitied.

This is the disconnect between mfg and general consumer. The weight savings isn't really a factor unless you're racing, the aerodynamic benefits are real, but the average cyclist cannot produce the power and speed to take advantage of it. In terms of durability, what the general cycling public is blind to is that carbon wheels are not meant for everyday use unless you hold the stature of Michael Rasmussen.

You mentioned that the brakes fade under hard breaking. Is this due to the Cork composite brake pads or the heat generated by hard braking and effecting the composition of the carbon rim or a bit of both.

It's the heat. Even the best yellow Swiss Stop pads suffer from this phenomena of brake fade.

As for having disk brakes on raod wheels, would this not contradict the reason for carbon rims (reduced weight). I would have thought that an aluminium rimmed wheel built to the UCI minimum benchmark would be lighter and more durable than a wheel with disk brakes or a wheel with carbon rims for that matter

Aluminum can't be made that light and safe at the same time, carbon has the strength to weight ratio won by a large margin. Two different kinds of weight going on though. There's the static weight of the frame and parts hanging from it, then dynamic weight what the wheels produce, which is usually multiplied by 2 at the outer diameter of the wheel when in motion. Carbon rims for disk is much lighter because there's no need for brake track reinforcement. Disk is coming, whether we like it or not, they'll get lighter and top end models will have carbon rotors with carbon pads just like in F1 today.

I'm assuming Cherry Creek is a bit of an upmarket town.

gold star for you!

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

Not a challenge or anything, but what's the difference between drilling and molding besides some resin? Is there a shape/depth to the molded spoke hole?

The advantage in molding the holes rather than drilling them is that during the baking process there's a higher concentration of carbon gathered around that hole, more material there acting like an eyelet, rather than the typical uniform mold interrupted by a drill. Works with aluminum, not carbon. ENVE actually used to drill their hols up until about 2 or 3 years ago, but they put the extra effort in and molded them to make them more durable without adding any weight.

 

[Boeing]

I appreciate everyone's replies. however the question is specific to the firecrest clincher wheel and rim for 2012 not the internet and shop talk 2008 to 2011. I understand many of the problems in general with zipps in the past. and yes in general practice an theory carbon brake surface will heat up etc.


However great claims have been made to assure us the hubs have been improved and the firecrest rim has alleged technology to compensate and dissipate the heat. I see no reason to counter those claims with out riding them. even shop guy who sees so many of them allegedly

so the question is again specific to the 2012 firecrest design and anyone riding them.

I sipped the coolaide and don't buy the dimple ball tech or the wide profile correcting itself in a cross wind like a sail or some shi#. but I havent ridden them

I expect a ride review like Yea man I can gain speed to weather in a head wind with out pedaling they act like a wing sail or at least something like Dude my blingy campy calipers are too narrow for those donuts and if it dont fit campy it sucks yo cuz Im euro trash guy yo. At least it would be a ride review not a group internet high five

 

[Boeing]

Everything RDV said, plus Zipps look sh*t on a road bike (but, somehow, magic underneath Spartacus on his TT rig ...) Let's compare:

(admittedly, on a truly unlovely frame)

with:

the Cervical bike looks bomber with those on bro what are you talking about

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

I appreciate everyone's replies. however the question is specific to the firecrest clincher wheel and rim for 2012 not the internet and shop talk 2008 to 2011. I understand many of the problems in general with zipps in the past. and yes in general practice an theory carbon brake surface will heat up etc.


However great claims have been made to assure us the hubs have been improved and the firecrest rim has alleged technology to compensate and dissipate the heat. I see no reason to counter those claims with out riding them. even shop guy who sees so many of them allegedly

so the question is again specific to the 2012 firecrest design and anyone riding them.

I sipped the coolaide and don't buy the dimple ball tech or the wide profile correcting itself in a cross wind like a sail or some shi#. but I havent ridden them

I expect a ride review like Yea man I can gain speed to weather in a head wind with out pedaling they act like a wing sail or at least something like Dude my blingy campy calipers are too narrow for those donuts and if it dont fit campy it sucks yo cuz Im euro trash guy yo. At least it would be a ride review not a group internet high five

Nobody rides that sh!t because they know better. ENVE is better by design, build and ride. High Five!!!

 

[Boeing]

I saw a VW bug broken down on PCH in 1979. therefor all VW's suckit

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

I saw a VW bug broken down on PCH in 1979. therefor all VW's suckit

Funny. Zipp has been claiming "improvements" for a long time, have any of them mattered? nope. Has the marketing hype worked to sell some wheels? yep. Are the shops that were loyal to Zipp upset because they're stuck with megabucks of inventory that won't sell because people are wise to how really bad their wheels are? yessir.

 

[Bustedknuckle]

Zipp rims are junk. There are about half a dozen shops just in Denver alone liquidating their entire Zipp inventories. Their carbon is soft to begin with, biggest downfall of Zipp rims are that the spoke holes are drilled, which makes for a really weak junction between rim and spoke. Lots and lots of nipples pulled through Zipp rims. Go with ENVE rims instead, all these shops are replacing Zipp with ENVE for one simple reason, spoke holes are molded instead of drilled, much stronger than anything else currently out there.

I see ENVE 45's in your future......

What he said. I too, have seen bearings(even ceramic) in these go south quickly, rims have eyelets pull thru. Once upon a time, in the 90s, pre sram, they weren't bad. Now they are mediocre stuff well marketed, like most of sram. Now, in 2012. If you want to spend you $ on these things, go ahead but make sure you read the warranty closely and have a shop that will take care of same.

Enve, Reynolds.....

 

[Boeing]

What he said. I too, have seen bearings(even ceramic) in these go south quickly, rims have eyelets pull thru. Once upon a time, in the 90s, pre sram, they weren't bad. Now they are mediocre stuff well marketed, like most of sram. Now, in 2012. If you want to spend you $ on these things, go ahead but make sure you read the warranty closely and have a shop that will take care of same.

Enve, Reynolds.....

I can appreciate that. however have you seen any of the issues you list both hub and rim specific to the firecrest 404 or 808?


question off topic a little for builders RDV, BK: if building ENVE would you run same spoke count front and rear? Also how should one hang their bike with carbon rims?

 

[Boeing]

Funny. Zipp has been claiming "improvements" for a long time, have any of them mattered? nope. Has the marketing hype worked to sell some wheels? yep. Are the shops that were loyal to Zipp upset because they're stuck with megabucks of inventory that won't sell because people are wise to how really bad their wheels are? yessir.

well a true indication of how well a product is doing here in Cali is how much product one sees on the weekend in PCH in the OC or south of Pendelton.

For example: there was a time not to long ago you could spot Look 595s all over the place. I have seen exactly 2 695's since they came out; great product but there is a thread about the over the top cost to benefit the new stuff offers and the US marketing and distribution is full *** not to mention the "no industry pricing" protocol directive and floor count demands. the same might be said for the Firecrest. I have seen very few firecrest product (I haven't heard any either ) on the road at all; perhaps for reasons stated in this thread.

the price is right for my situation with the Zipps and the wide deep dish theory in something I'd like to test given the inner engineer in me; but I'm not sure its worth it.

Interesting they took the Clyde 404 with the 28 spoke count and alloy brake surface away and upped the weight limit when the firecrest came out. from 225 to 250 rider lbs? 250 lbs on a braking descent is a recipe for a melt down for ANY carbon clincher rim IMHO.

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

well a true indication of how well a product is doing here in Cali is how much product one sees on the weekend in PCH in the OC or south of Pendelton.

For example: there was a time not to long ago you could spot Look 595s all over the place. I have seen exactly 2 695's since they came out; great product but there is a thread about the over the top cost to benefit the new stuff offers and the US marketing and distribution is full *** not to mention the "no industry pricing" protocol directive and floor count demands. the same might be said for the Firecrest. I have seen very few firecrest product (I haven't heard any either ) on the road at all; perhaps for reasons stated in this thread.

the price is right for my situation with the Zipps and the wide deep dish theory in something I'd like to test given the inner engineer in me; but I'm not sure its worth it.

Interesting they took the Clyde 404 with the 28 spoke count and alloy brake surface away and upped the weight limit when the firecrest came out. from 225 to 250 rider lbs? 250 lbs on a braking descent is a recipe for a melt down for ANY carbon clincher rim IMHO.

This was the same thing with the ScRAM grouppo you acquired for next to nothing. Even after most of us told you to stay away, the lure of the "deal" couldn't be passed up. Fair enough. Wheels I wouldn't mess around with though because in the grand scheme of things they are the most important component of the bike. You're around 190-200lbs, right? The extra money you pay for durability and piece of mind with ENVE rims is well worth it, and from an engineering standpoint they are better by design than most everything out there, especially for the heavies.

p.s. I don't see any MTB or DH rims from Zipp, ENVE has 'em. Maybe that's a testament to how much more durable their stuff really is. Hmmmm

 

[Bustedknuckle]

I can appreciate that. however have you seen any of the issues you list both hub and rim specific to the firecrest 404 or 808?


question off topic a little for builders RDV, BK: if building ENVE would you run same spoke count front and rear? Also how should one hang their bike with carbon rims?

Depends on you and if you 'ride' heavy or light, both in weight and technique.

The hubs/rims are essentially the same. Wee bearings, i don't see them being any more reliable than older Zipp/firecrest wheels.

 

[elapid]

A little off topic - I have had Zipp 303 clinchers with aluminum braking surface for 6 years now (with PT hub). I use them as my everyday and racing wheels, although I no longer do much racing, and have put over 30K kms on them without a problem. Maybe I'm just lucky? As far as cosmetics - I think the wheels look great minus the decals. However no personal experience with the Zipp Firecrest.

 

[laziali]

the Cervical bike looks bomber with those on bro what are you talking about

That's subjectivity for you