Zipp Firecrest Clincher

[laziali]

The advantage in molding the holes rather than drilling them is that during the baking process there's a higher concentration of carbon gathered around that hole, more material there acting like an eyelet, rather than the typical uniform mold interrupted by a drill. Works with aluminum, not carbon. ENVE actually used to drill their hols up until about 2 or 3 years ago, but they put the extra effort in and molded them to make them more durable without adding any weight.

Interesting approach by MadFiber to this issue - they bond the spokes to the rim. Described on VN as "A Mad Fiber rim, whether clincher or tubular, is formed by bonding together two thin, flat circular rim sides to a rim cap (aluminum in a clincher, carbon fiber in a tubular). The spokes bond to the hub flanges, enter the rim through slots in the rim walls, and bond to the rim’s inner walls. The section of the end of the spoke where it is glued against the inner wall of the rim is around 40mm long and is covered with a carbon fiber patch to further reinforce the bond with the rim. All gluing surfaces within the wheel are over seven times as big in area as the load limit of the adhesive, claims Hjertberg."http://velonews.competitor.com/2011/09/interbike/interbike-tech-riding-up-stream-in-a-gully-washer-mad-fibers-and-happy-rims_192112

Has anyone ridden these / heard how they ride? I know there's already a thread on them here, but it doesn't have any ride commentary http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=8494

PS, here's a pair on one of the most beautiful rigs in the world ...

 

[Boeing]

This was the same thing with the ScRAM grouppo you acquired for next to nothing. Even after most of us told you to stay away, the lure of the "deal" couldn't be passed up. Fair enough. Wheels I wouldn't mess around with though because in the grand scheme of things they are the most important component of the bike. You're around 190-200lbs, right? The extra money you pay for durability and piece of mind with ENVE rims is well worth it, and from an engineering standpoint they are better by design than most everything out there, especially for the heavies.

p.s. I don't see any MTB or DH rims from Zipp, ENVE has 'em. Maybe that's a testament to how much more durable their stuff really is. Hmmmm

i think you know the stuff I ride is a little better than a "deal" and I cant really steer away from the relationship at this point. In addition I dont blindly pimp it based on the relationship either nor do I intend to boast about it

and as much as I love you all I take your input respectfully but don't take it as gospel. it you were posting in the clinic with such generalizations you'd get blasted

but you are right about wheels. the "deal" so to speak aint worth the deductible right? now with me a bagel over Clyde. so I m not jumping in. still a fulcrum or hand built 3x guy all the way

you know you are going to build those profile hubs up for me when they show up! again; what about front and rear spoke count for the ENVE build?

I just hope there are enough production to match spoke counts for ENVE hoops

 

[Boeing]

Interesting approach by MadFiber to this issue - they bond the spokes to the rim. Described on VN as "A Mad Fiber rim, whether clincher or tubular, is formed by bonding together two thin, flat circular rim sides to a rim cap (aluminum in a clincher, carbon fiber in a tubular). The spokes bond to the hub flanges, enter the rim through slots in the rim walls, and bond to the rim’s inner walls. The section of the end of the spoke where it is glued against the inner wall of the rim is around 40mm long and is covered with a carbon fiber patch to further reinforce the bond with the rim. All gluing surfaces within the wheel are over seven times as big in area as the load limit of the adhesive, claims Hjertberg."http://velonews.competitor.com/2011/09/interbike/interbike-tech-riding-up-stream-in-a-gully-washer-mad-fibers-and-happy-rims_192112

Has anyone ridden these / heard how they ride? I know there's already a thread on them here, but it doesn't have any ride commentary http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=8494

PS, here's a pair on one of the most beautiful rigs in the world ...

damn. can you say dopeshizzle RDV?

 

[r_mutt]

Disk is coming, whether we like it or not, they'll get lighter and top end models will have carbon rotors with carbon pads just like in F1 today.

i can see the benefit of carbon rotors in terms of weight, but carbon rotors with carbon pads does not make sense for bicycles because those only work when both are warmed up to operating temperature. motorcycle road racing (and auto) has so many turns in a short closed circuit that you are on the brakes every 5 seconds (most of the time even sooner) enough to keep the carbon-carbon brake system at operating temps. bicycle racing use the brakes so intermittently, that carbon-carbon would never come up to ideal operating temps, and would in theory not work as well as steel rotors. as a matter of fact, when cold it would not work well at all. there's a reason in the old days of F1, they would resort to enclosing the carbon brake rotors to make sure they didn't lose their temperature in the rain. for this reason in moto gp, they run stainless rotors and ceramic pads when it's wet.

 

[karlboss]

Any opinions out there on 3sixty degree wheels? They went to 23mm wide as near as I can tell before anyone else, on carbon clincher they had the aluminium insert (like mad) before anyone else. Molded holes since they were x-treme.

Check out Tour magazin quaterly for a technical review on a number of wheels, including weight, stiffness, aerodynmaic data. No surprises deep low spoke count wheels perform well, wide rims perform well, lots of spokes is stiffer, doesn't mention anything about reliability.

ffwd f6r vs zipp 404 firecrest in the wind tunnel, no difference.

 

[Boeing]

i can see the benefit of carbon rotors in terms of weight, but carbon rotors with carbon pads does not make sense for bicycles because those only work when both are warmed up to operating temperature. motorcycle road racing (and auto) has so many turns in a short closed circuit that you are on the brakes every 5 seconds (most of the time even sooner) enough to keep the carbon-carbon brake system at operating temps. bicycle racing use the brakes so intermittently, that carbon-carbon would never come up to ideal operating temps, and would in theory not work as well as steel rotors. as a matter of fact, when cold it would not work well at all. there's a reason in the old days of F1, they would resort to enclosing the carbon brake rotors to make sure they didn't lose their temperature in the rain. for this reason in moto gp, they run stainless rotors and ceramic pads when it's wet.

they still cant get ti rotors to work

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

i think you know the stuff I ride is a little better than a "deal" and I cant really steer away from the relationship at this point. In addition I dont blindly pimp it based on the relationship either nor do I intend to boast about it.

Hey man free is free, can't argue with that.

and as much as I love you all I take your input respectfully but don't take it as gospel. it you were posting in the clinic with such generalizations you'd get blasted

You get blasted in the clinic no matter if you're generalizing or not. That place is crazy.

but you are right about wheels. the "deal" so to speak aint worth the deductible right? now with me a bagel over Clyde. so I m not jumping in. still a fulcrum or hand built 3x guy all the way

Carbon wheels from any manufacturer generally isn't a good idea for heavies, especially if you plan on using them daily instead of for special events or racing only, their intended use.

you know you are going to build those profile hubs up for me when they show up!

Yours would be the first set I build with the new Profile hubs. I'd even do a well documented build review in the Wheelbuilders thread with words and photos.

...again; what about front and rear spoke count for the ENVE build?I just hope there are enough production to match spoke counts for ENVE hoops

An ENVE build for you would depend on rim depth, I already know your weight and riding style. Example would be 45's 28h 2x for both.


Re: MadFiber

I've ridden all incarnations of carbon spoked wheels, Spinergy, Lightweight, and now MadFiber, all novelties that don't really get much airplay unless your tax bracket warrants a $3k wheelset (ie MF) . All I have to say is that as long as the J-bend spoke is the standard my job is safe.

 

[Boeing]

Hey man free is free, can't argue with that.



You get blasted in the clinic no matter if you're generalizing or not. That place is crazy.



Carbon wheels from any manufacturer generally isn't a good idea for heavies, especially if you plan on using them daily instead of for special events or racing only, their intended use.



Yours would be the first set I build with the new Profile hubs. I'd even do a well documented build review in the Wheelbuilders thread with words and photos.



An ENVE build for you would depend on rim depth, I already know your weight and riding style. Example would be 45's 28h 2x for both.


Re: MadFiber

I've ridden all incarnations of carbon spoked wheels, Spinergy, Lightweight, and now MadFiber, all novelties that don't really get much airplay unless your tax bracket warrants a $3k wheelset (ie MF) . All I have to say is that as long as the J-bend spoke is the standard my job is safe.

curious; how do people hang their bikes with carbon rims? not by hook and rim I assume?

 

[dolophonic]

My answer was only in reference to the New 303 Firecrest, which you can get built from Wheelbuilder with any hub you like.
From what i hear they are great. I have not used them myself.

I have also heard and seen first hand a few Edge/Enve rims go to ****. there are problems all over the place.

Without a doubt there are drawbacks to carbon clinchers.
might as well just get some HED Ardennes.

 

[marathon marke]

curious; how do people hang their bikes with carbon rims? not by hook and rim I assume?

In our shop those bikes get in placed in free-standing racks. But I've wondered...if the hooks are well-coated, what is the problem with hanging them?

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

curious; how do people hang their bikes with carbon rims? not by hook and rim I assume?

I don't see a problem with hanging them, but I just lean mine up against the wall. Never have seen a hook big enough for my 58mm rims, I'm sure they're out there, just never bothered.

 

[Boeing]

I don't see a problem with hanging them, but I just lean mine up against the wall. Never have seen a hook big enough for my 58mm rims, I'm sure they're out there, just never bothered.

I forget, did you build a set of Triton rims up?

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

I forget, did you build a set of Triton rims up?

Yes, I was sourcing carbon junk through Trigon for a while, the rims are actually made at Mega Composites Taiwan. The frame is long gone, wheels remain, will be used on the CX version of this bike for gravel races.

 

[Bustedknuckle]

In our shop those bikes get in placed in free-standing racks. But I've wondered...if the hooks are well-coated, what is the problem with hanging them?

No problem if they are true carbon rims and not just a carbon fairing like some Mavic wheels. I do it all the time..coated hooks, only way to be able to store all the bicycles here for tuning...

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

Yes, I was sourcing carbon junk through Trigon for a while, the rims are actually made at Mega Composites Taiwan. The frame is long gone, wheels remain, will be used on the CX version of this bike for gravel races.

Funny, I did the same thing. I sourced some frames/bars/etc. from Trigon and wheels from Gigantex with the standard Novatec hubs and Pillar spokes. Solid wheels.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

RDV covered it well.

You also have the heat issue. For carbon clinchers the breaking surface is also integral to keeping the tire on. As carbon does not dissipate heat as well as alloy the chances of a blowout on a long descent increase.

Enve are the way to go.

Just stay away from carbon clinchers period. If you're going to go carbon, go tubular. Campy Hyperon would be at the top of the list, IMO.

Crap braking + no weight savings + extra cost = carbon clinchers.

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

Just stay away from carbon clinchers period. If you're going to go carbon, go tubular. Campy Hyperon would be at the top of the list, IMO.

Crap braking + no weight savings + extra cost = carbon clinchers.

Has been this way for a while, those rims I sourced from Taiwan suffer the crap braking. EDCO for the last few years has been making headway as a pro wheel sponsor. In terms of braking performance theirs are some of the best carbon hoops being used at the pro level on road and CX. Not just saying that because I build with their hubs exclusively for the last 3 years either. The first incarnations of their carbon rims were junk, those really crappy Zipp Taiwan OEM garbage hoops, but they really upped the ante as of late.

 

[Bustedknuckle]

Has been this way for a while, those rims I sourced from Taiwan suffer the crap braking. EDCO for the last few years has been making headway as a pro wheel sponsor. In terms of braking performance theirs are some of the best carbon hoops being used at the pro level on road and CX. Not just saying that because I build with their hubs exclusively for the last 3 years either. The first incarnations of their carbon rims were junk, those really crappy Zipp Taiwan OEM garbage hoops, but they really upped the ante as of late.

Geeezz, they couldn't find their BIG decals??

 

[masking_agent]

Zipp rims are junk. There are about half a dozen shops just in Denver alone liquidating their entire Zipp inventories. Their carbon is soft to begin with, biggest downfall of Zipp rims are that the spoke holes are drilled, which makes for a really weak junction between rim and spoke. Lots and lots of nipples pulled through Zipp rims. Go with ENVE rims instead, all these shops are replacing Zipp with ENVE for one simple reason, spoke holes are molded instead of drilled, much stronger than anything else currently out there.

I see ENVE 45's in your future......

good thing I read this as I was contemplating Zipp's myself. I will now look into ENVE's

I also have Mavic on my carbon clincher as well.

 

[Boeing]

good thing I read this as I was contemplating Zipp's myself. I will now look into ENVE's

I also have Mavic on my carbon clincher as well.

There is no study to either confirm or deny this assertion RDV claims. most of his and BKs thoughts relate to past reputation as well not personal experience using the product under saddle so be careful with internet hype and well as internet diss. In addition nothing negative posted here relates to the specific product listed in the OP. I read nothing here that relates to the practical application of the new Firecrest. Perhaps because it is still new but aside from cost a few of the guys riding them here in OC group rides rave about them so far. I am reluctant because of cost and as RDV points out I am a fat bastrd and I couldnt hold their wheels if they were on a fat 3x build regardless

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

There is no study to either confirm or deny this assertion RDV claims. most of his and BKs thoughts relate to past reputation as well not personal experience using the product under saddle so be careful with internet hype and well as internet diss. In addition nothing negative posted here relates to the specific product listed in the OP. I read nothing here that relates to the practical application of the new Firecrest. Perhaps because it is still new but aside from cost a few of the guys riding them here in OC group rides rave about them so far. I am reluctant because of cost and as RDV points out I am a fat bastrd and I couldnt hold their wheels if they were on a fat 3x build regardless

"claims", c'mon dude, really? How long have we known each other? In all fairness I owned and raced on various Zipp sets, factory and custom built from '98-2004, road, track, TT's and CX. Serviced all kinds of prebuilt junk from Zipp and the usual suspects until 2010. In March of that year we had almost 20 various Zipp wheels waiting for service. Now I visit about 20 shops per week and see that nothing has changed, they're still populating large amounts hooks in the to-be-serviced area, or the blowout section on the sales floor, and nothing over the years has led me to believe that Firecrust is going to be much better than any other improvements they've claimed with their rims and hubs over the years.

Boeing, today I was at an ORBEA dealer and almost took an Orca out for a spin that was Firecrust 303 equipped just to say I rode them, but decided that it would've been a waste of my precious time, literally.

 

[BroDeal]

There is no study to either confirm or deny this assertion RDV claims. most of his and BKs thoughts relate to past reputation as well not personal experience using the product under saddle so be careful with internet hype and well as internet diss. In addition nothing negative posted here relates to the specific product listed in the OP. I read nothing here that relates to the practical application of the new Firecrest.

If you let your neighbor in your house and he squats down to lay a big turd in the middle of your living room, you might give him a second chance when he tells you he no longer has a problem; but how many times does he have to drop a deuce on your carpet before you stop letting him in your house?

 

[marathon marke]

No problem if they are true carbon rims and not just a carbon fairing like some Mavic wheels. I do it all the time..coated hooks, only way to be able to store all the bicycles here for tuning...

Why not wheels with carbon fairings?

 

[Notso Swift]

I suspect that is because the fairing has a join to the alu which is potentially a weak point and that faring itself is is very light weight, as its only purpose is for aero

With a full carbon wheel the whole rim is structural

 

[Boeing]

If you let your neighbor in your house and he squats down to lay a big turd in the middle of your living room, you might give him a second chance when he tells you he no longer has a problem; but how many times does he have to drop a deuce on your carpet before you stop letting him in your house?

thats different because it would be something I actually experienced . RDV just heard that a neighbor laid a growler in my house therefore I must let all my neighbors drop troul

My HP printer jammed. therefore all hp's sukit is the logic I follow here


btw you'd sht yourselves too if you saw my pad