Zipp recall

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

Is it any wonder why I cannot recommend factory wheels to anybody.

http://www.cpsc.gov/en/Recalls/2015/SRAM-Recalls-Zipp-88-Bicycle-Wheel-Hubs/

 

[simo1733]

Is it any wonder why I cannot recommend factory wheels to anybody.

http://www.cpsc.gov/en/Recalls/2015/SRAM-Recalls-Zipp-88-Bicycle-Wheel-Hubs/

I have those wheels, but I bought them in US and now I'm living in Asia.i can send them back for a new hub but I have to cover shipping both ways.

 

[Bustedknuckle]

Is it any wonder why I cannot recommend factory wheels to anybody.

http://www.cpsc.gov/en/Recalls/2015/SRAM-Recalls-Zipp-88-Bicycle-Wheel-Hubs/

Remind me again, who owns zipp?

So Recall Another Mister?

 

[richwagmn]

Remind me again, who owns zipp?

So Recall Another Mister?

Yea but they have the largest group of testers of any manufacturer. Everyone.

 

[simo1733]

Any suggestion for a suitable hub to replace a 16 Zipp?

 

[42x16ss]

Any suggestion for a suitable hub to replace a 16 Zipp?

Chris King, Alchemy, Edco, DT Swiss, Shimano, Campagnolo - it's a pretty long list, just avoid Mavic....

 

[simo1733]

Chris King, Alchemy, Edco, DT Swiss, Shimano, Campagnolo - it's a pretty long list, just avoid Mavic....

I don't see Campagnolo or Shimano selling 16 spoke front hubs.DT Swiss 240,180 only go to 20 spokes.I haven't checked the others yet.

 

[Bustedknuckle]

Any suggestion for a suitable hub to replace a 16 Zipp?

DA(I think they have a 16h front), White Industries, DT240, Chris King, probably others.

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

Any suggestion for a suitable hub to replace a 16 Zipp?

Since you're in Asia, Novatec and Formula have plenty of cheap straight pull 16h front hub replacements. If you're looking for a boutique hub, Tune MIG 45 or Extralite Ultra SPX.

 

[Master50]

Is it any wonder why I cannot recommend factory wheels to anybody.

http://www.cpsc.gov/en/Recalls/2015/SRAM-Recalls-Zipp-88-Bicycle-Wheel-Hubs/

If we stick to normally available hubs, rims and spokes I think we would all be riding min 24 spoke wheels. many of the very low spoke count wheels need to be crash tested before they are legal for road racing and no hand builder can meet that production level. Once a hand builder reaches a certain level he can no longer build all the wheels or limit the supply. Zipp sells rims to the public but I bet most are drilled for 24 to 36 spokes and none are available in 16 unless it is a replacement rim from a factory builder.
then there is just the number of bikes sold every year. more than cars. millions of bikes need more millions of wheels and they are not hand built. Generally if you want the highest performing wheels you have to buy factory built. If you want a set of wheels that will be reliable and cheap a good set of handbuits can last right up to the rim splitting from brake wear. I have factory wheels last as long too. If you include department store bikes there must be 100 times as many factory wheels as handbuilt. Surely there are wheels you can and I bet do recommend?

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

If we stick to normally available hubs, rims and spokes I think we would all be riding min 24 spoke wheels. many of the very low spoke count wheels need to be crash tested before they are legal for road racing and no hand builder can meet that production level. Once a hand builder reaches a certain level he can no longer build all the wheels or limit the supply. Zipp sells rims to the public but I bet most are drilled for 24 to 36 spokes and none are available in 16 unless it is a replacement rim from a factory builder.
then there is just the number of bikes sold every year. more than cars. millions of bikes need more millions of wheels and they are not hand built. Generally if you want the highest performing wheels you have to buy factory built. If you want a set of wheels that will be reliable and cheap a good set of handbuits can last right up to the rim splitting from brake wear. I have factory wheels last as long too. If you include department store bikes there must be 100 times as many factory wheels as handbuilt. Surely there are wheels you can and I bet do recommend?

Zipp does stress testing, but they've always had hub problems that date back to early 2000's. Notorious bearing issues over the years, lacking build quality. Additionally, I've never seen so much bladder debris in any new carbon rim on the market, Zipp takes the cake in that dept. They do not sell rims to the public, and afaik no longer support IWB's since SRAM bought them out.

The highest preforming wheels are hand built start to finish. The very top elite riders who ride factory brands never get off-the-shelf nor do they ever ride a set that went through a machine, strictly hand built and serviced multiple times throughout a season.

I thank you for your input, but your sample group is one person. I'm building and servicing about 300-500 sets per year from just about every brand available and have seen all the good, bad, and ugly of wheel tech for nearly 3 decades. I only hope that you're not trying to downplay this recall in any way because a couple people got hurt pretty bad, and 12,000 units is an extremely terrible warranty number to be dealing with in any industry especially if it causes injury.

 

[dougvdh]

I'd agree on the going handbuilt for the highest performance. I'm slowly replacing my factory-builts with handbuilts (some factory builts re-built by hand). I've had far less issues with my handbuilt stuff and when I've have had issues (broken spokes, being knocked out of true), I can just take them to the shop that built them and get them fixed quickly.

That's not to say that I haven't ridden some good factory builts - I've got a set of Easton Tempest 2 (now rebuilt by local shop with new rims/spokes because I wore them out), Fulcrum Racing 1 (great wheel until you break a spoke . . . then good luck.) Easton EC90SL - nice wheels once I got the DS of the rear wheel re-laced because it would randomly break spokes - major pain due to hidden nipples.

If I was tempted to buy more factory built wheels, I'd definitely stay away from proprietary spokes, and super low spoke counts (both my Eastons and Fulcrums are unrideable with a broken spoke)

 

[Bustedknuckle]

I'd agree on the going handbuilt for the highest performance. I'm slowly replacing my factory-builts with handbuilts (some factory builts re-built by hand). I've had far less issues with my handbuilt stuff and when I've have had issues (broken spokes, being knocked out of true), I can just take them to the shop that built them and get them fixed quickly.

That's not to say that I haven't ridden some good factory builts - I've got a set of Easton Tempest 2 (now rebuilt by local shop with new rims/spokes because I wore them out), Fulcrum Racing 1 (great wheel until you break a spoke . . . then good luck.) Easton EC90SL - nice wheels once I got the DS of the rear wheel re-laced because it would randomly break spokes - major pain due to hidden nipples.

If I was tempted to buy more factory built wheels, I'd definitely stay away from proprietary spokes, and super low spoke counts (both my Eastons and Fulcrums are unrideable with a broken spoke)

'Factory' wheels these days are almost entirely with proprietary parts. Hubs, spokes, rims. One of their major weaknesses. In a few years, you wear out a rim, no rims available.

But previous poster talking about the low end 'factory' wheels. They are just normal spokes, rims, hubs but the wheel is machine built. Far different than the Mavic/Campagnolo/Fulcrum/Shimano, etc wheels. Low digit, machine built wheels, if gone over by a good wheel builder, can be great wheels.

 

[dougvdh]

But previous poster talking about the low end 'factory' wheels. They are just normal spokes, rims, hubs but the wheel is machine built. Far different than the Mavic/Campagnolo/Fulcrum/Shimano, etc wheels. Low digit, machine built wheels, if gone over by a good wheel builder, can be great wheels.

That can be true. I've got a set of AClass ALX-200 (nothing special, $300 MSRP), but they are built with DTSwiss J bend spokes, the hubs are loose bearing Shimano knock-offs (and use shimano cones), brass nipples, laced 20/24. Not the lightest or stiffest wheel out there, but completely reliable, completely serviceable by any shop.

 

[Bustedknuckle]

That can be true. I've got a set of AClass ALX-200 (nothing special, $300 MSRP), but they are built with DTSwiss J bend spokes, the hubs are loose bearing Shimano knock-offs (and use shimano cones), brass nipples, laced 20/24. Not the lightest or stiffest wheel out there, but completely reliable, completely serviceable by any shop.

Reality, what a concept.

 

[Master50]

Zipp does stress testing, but they've always had hub problems that date back to early 2000's. Notorious bearing issues over the years, lacking build quality. Additionally, I've never seen so much bladder debris in any new carbon rim on the market, Zipp takes the cake in that dept. They do not sell rims to the public, and afaik no longer support IWB's since SRAM bought them out.

The highest preforming wheels are hand built start to finish. The very top elite riders who ride factory brands never get off-the-shelf nor do they ever ride a set that went through a machine, strictly hand built and serviced multiple times throughout a season.

I thank you for your input, but your sample group is one person. I'm building and servicing about 300-500 sets per year from just about every brand available and have seen all the good, bad, and ugly of wheel tech for nearly 3 decades. I only hope that you're not trying to downplay this recall in any way because a couple people got hurt pretty bad, and 12,000 units is an extremely terrible warranty number to be dealing with in any industry especially if it causes injury.

I am definitely not defending Zipp QC. I had opportunity to get a set very deeply discounted and even at that price it was too much to risk on their reputation alone.

A company like Campagnolo/Fulcrum uses a hybrid to build their high end wheels. Often machine assisted and hand finished for tension, balance and QC inspected.
When I speak to pro riders and mechanics I see that most do have new wheels checked over to verify the factory build is good but they are not building their wheels from scratch. those Boras are factory built as are the Mavics and Shimano factory wheels. Ryder has 2 of his bikes in the local shop and his wheels are factory built Mavic wheels right pout of the box. I would expect those wheels aware all hand finished at Mavic factory. I own a pro bike and the wheels are factory Shamals. the wheels they raced on were factory Hyperon and Bora.

Unfortunately Zipp made several choices to use marginal parts for weight or cost and now they are stepping up to that choice. Looks like SRAM is the recall company.
How do you classify a Lightweight? A lot of pros buy their own? Are they factory or handbuilt? I say Factory. Very small factory but glued in spokes are not hand finished after.

 

[Boeing]

Zipp does stress testing, but they've always had hub problems that date back to early 2000's. Notorious bearing issues over the years, lacking build quality. Additionally, I've never seen so much bladder debris in any new carbon rim on the market, Zipp takes the cake in that dept. They do not sell rims to the public, and afaik no longer support IWB's since SRAM bought them out.

The highest preforming wheels are hand built start to finish. The very top elite riders who ride factory brands never get off-the-shelf nor do they ever ride a set that went through a machine, strictly hand built and serviced multiple times throughout a season.

I thank you for your input, but your sample group is one person. I'm building and servicing about 300-500 sets per year from just about every brand available and have seen all the good, bad, and ugly of wheel tech for nearly 3 decades. I only hope that you're not trying to downplay this recall in any way because a couple people got hurt pretty bad, and 12,000 units is an extremely terrible warranty number to be dealing with in any industry especially if it causes injury.

I only hope you aren't trying to overplay the recall for personal gain

 

[winkybiker]

That can be true. I've got a set of AClass ALX-200 (nothing special, $300 MSRP), but they are built with DTSwiss J bend spokes, the hubs are loose bearing Shimano knock-offs (and use shimano cones), brass nipples, laced 20/24. Not the lightest or stiffest wheel out there, but completely reliable, completely serviceable by any shop.

J-bend spokes strike me as a sick joke perpetrated by wheelbuilders.

Wheelbuilder 1: "I know, to anchor the spoke at the hub, lets just bend it"

Wheelbuilder 2: "But that would stress and embrittle the spoke at the bend. In use, the stress concentration will be through the roof, asymmetric, and positioned so as to initiate and propagate cracks, right at the weakest spot. They'll break all the time on that bend, especially on the non-drive side rear where cyclical load variation is greatest"

Wheelbuilder 1: "But that's the genius of it. We'll be in the gravy repairing and re-trueing wheels forever. You have to think outside the box"

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

I am definitely not defending Zipp QC. I had opportunity to get a set very deeply discounted and even at that price it was too much to risk on their reputation alone.

A company like Campagnolo/Fulcrum uses a hybrid to build their high end wheels. Often machine assisted and hand finished for tension, balance and QC inspected.
When I speak to pro riders and mechanics I see that most do have new wheels checked over to verify the factory build is good but they are not building their wheels from scratch. those Boras are factory built as are the Mavics and Shimano factory wheels. Ryder has 2 of his bikes in the local shop and his wheels are factory built Mavic wheels right pout of the box. I would expect those wheels aware all hand finished at Mavic factory. I own a pro bike and the wheels are factory Shamals. the wheels they raced on were factory Hyperon and Bora.

Unfortunately Zipp made several choices to use marginal parts for weight or cost and now they are stepping up to that choice. Looks like SRAM is the recall company.
How do you classify a Lightweight? A lot of pros buy their own? Are they factory or handbuilt? I say Factory. Very small factory but glued in spokes are not hand finished after.

These factories will set aside an entire squads wheel supply for the season that doesn't go through the regular assembly line. Some teams will go as far as to pick one builder that they trust to build all of them. Same for frames, very rarely will a pro ride a stock frame, usually slightly tweaked variances not available to to the public, and if they do choose a stock frame it was hand picked and inspected 2x over by a team rep before shipping out to the service course. The bonded carbon spokes like Lightweight or Mavic CC's are entirely hand built and finished, never touch a machine.

J-bend spokes strike me as a sick joke perpetrated by wheelbuilders.

Wheelbuilder 1: "I know, to anchor the spoke at the hub, lets just bend it"

Wheelbuilder 2: "But that would stress and embrittle the spoke at the bend. In use, the stress concentration will be through the roof, asymmetric, and positioned so as to initiate and propagate cracks, right at the weakest spot. They'll break all the time on that bend, especially on the non-drive side rear where cyclical load variation is greatest"

Wheelbuilder 1: "But that's the genius of it. We'll be in the gravy repairing and re-trueing wheels forever. You have to think outside the box"

The J-bend conspiracy is planned obsolescence? Too funny!!

I only hope you aren't trying to overplay the recall for personal gain

No, I only trash talked them because I knew you'd jump at the chance to flame and troll. Had a feeling BroDeal's shadow was waiting in the wings here ready to pounce. If it makes you feel any better I just picked up 2 CX1 groups for personal bikes.

 

[Master50]

These factories will set aside an entire squads wheel supply for the season that doesn't go through the regular assembly line. Some teams will go as far as to pick one builder that they trust to build all of them. Same for frames, very rarely will a pro ride a stock frame, usually slightly tweaked variances not available to to the public, and if they do choose a stock frame it was hand picked and inspected 2x over by a team rep before shipping out to the service course. The bonded carbon spokes like Lightweight or Mavic CC's are entirely hand built and finished, never touch a machine.

these are still factory wheels. all you have described is factory. that the factory may cooperate with team reps make sense in that the factory is a sponsor and truly want to be sure they send out the best of the best. but in truth these handpicked wheels are hardly statistically better than what they send to Wiggle or joe's bike shop.Even small factories that build your lightweights are not built by the same person. they are built by several people in a factory. OK all hand processes but still hardly a single person building. I think we are arguing semantics. you call them handbuilt. I call them factory

 

[veganrob]

J-bend spokes strike me as a sick joke perpetrated by wheelbuilders.

Wheelbuilder 1: "I know, to anchor the spoke at the hub, lets just bend it"

Wheelbuilder 2: "But that would stress and embrittle the spoke at the bend. In use, the stress concentration will be through the roof, asymmetric, and positioned so as to initiate and propagate cracks, right at the weakest spot. They'll break all the time on that bend, especially on the non-drive side rear where cyclical load variation is greatest"

Wheelbuilder 1: "But that's the genius of it. We'll be in the gravy repairing and re-trueing wheels forever. You have to think outside the box"

Uhhh, sorry. No.

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

these are still factory wheels. all you have described is factory. that the factory may cooperate with team reps make sense in that the factory is a sponsor and truly want to be sure they send out the best of the best. but in truth these handpicked wheels are hardly statistically better than what they send to Wiggle or joe's bike shop.Even small factories that build your lightweights are not built by the same person. they are built by several people in a factory. OK all hand processes but still hardly a single person building. I think we are arguing semantics. you call them handbuilt. I call them factory

I would have to wholeheartedly disagree with that bold part. Wheels that go out to the teams are built right the first time. Production stock meant for a sales floor that goes down the regular production line will show up at a shop with up to a 30% variance in tension on one side of a wheel in some extreme cases, and only ends up as decent as the mechanic who unboxed them to fix the problems however big or small.

 

[winkybiker]

Uhhh, sorry. No.

Well every j-bend spoke I have ever had break has broken at the j-bend. It used to drive me nuts.

(I have had far fewer broken spokes since moving to factory wheels with straight-pull spokes (Campy, Mavic, Bontrager, Fulcrum). Only 1 in the last 12 years, actually.)

 

[Bustedknuckle]

Well every j-bend spoke I have ever had break has broken at the j-bend. It used to drive me nuts.

(I have had far fewer broken spokes since moving to factory wheels with straight-pull spokes (Campy, Mavic, Bontrager, Fulcrum). Only 1 in the last 12 years, actually.)

Then the wheelbuilder did a crappy job or you wacked rims often.

When the rim is new, and the tension on the RH side is proper, left side spokes don't break. When the rim gets wacked, and the LH tension GOES DOWN, then like a metal hanger being bent lotsa times, the spoke may break. Non damaged rims, proper tension and tying and soldering all essentially eliminate broken J bend spokes.

I have seen many broken spokes on the above mentioned wheels, particularly aluminum spokes(really dumb idea. Not aero, too stiff, way expensive, almost impossible to find). Both at the hub and at the nipple.

 

[dougvdh]

The only time I've had issues with J-bend spokes breaking at the bends was one a set of wheels that came on a $700 Raleigh One-way that I used for 4 season commuting. Worst set of wheels I've ever owned. 32 hole, wide flange hubs (nothing wrong so far) . . . cheap Chinese spokes, poorly tensioned. I broke spokes on the front wheel even. Had them rebuilt with Sapim spokes by a local shop and have never broke another spoke. Moral of the story: If the spokes don't say Sapim or DT, I avoid them and don't have problems.