Teams & Riders Jonas Vingegaard: The Wizard of Visma

[Nick2413]

There is no drama if people are professional and the roles are made clear before hand. I don't think Vingegaards role would be to specifically tow a captain up the mountains anyway. If he was that much stronger than the captain he would likely have a free role to hunt for the stage win in those spots and mainly help the captain earlier if he doesn't have the best of legs comparatively.

I don’t think there’s any chance he goes as a stage hunter, unless it’s to get legs for Vuelta.

 

[ingsve]

I don’t think there’s any chance he goes as a stage hunter, unless it’s to get legs for Vuelta.

That's just from his perspective though so it comes down to whether he has a choice. If I was the sponsor I would demand that he was there as long as he is fit enough to ride a bike. Exposure at the Tour is just so much bigger than even a win at the Vuelta.

 

[Oldermanish]

I wonder how much this is up to him. Do the big stars have so much power that they can decide for themselves whether they should participate or not? It's kind of important for the team and sponsors from the PR and commercial standpoint to have the double reigning champion at the start just to show himself even if he's not in 100% shape even if it is just to hunt for a stage or two and to help one of his team mates get a good result in his place.

It's up to Jonas, first. You can't make a rider race if they're unwilling.
JV is getting almost as much marketing off this recovery phase as they can and likely will expect him to post workout progress broadcasts. Those would make daily viewing in Denmark, at least.

The problem with starting a GT, particularly the Tour when not at your best is the danger factor. The first week is nuts for aggression by everyone trying to get on their jersey on camera. Safety is totally secondary. That middle to back of field is where lesser riders live and die. It seems like a risky proposition if he hasn't done some prior racing to be comfortable. That risk increases if he'd be trying to push to the front to assist a team result. IMO he'd be best served to target a lower profile race and serve as an JV ambassador in the meantime.

 

[ingsve]

It's up to Jonas, first. You can't make a rider race if they're unwilling.
JV is getting almost as much marketing off this recovery phase as they can and likely will expect him to post workout progress broadcasts. Those would make daily viewing in Denmark, at least.

The problem with starting a GT, particularly the Tour when not at your best is the danger factor. The first week is nuts for aggression by everyone trying to get on their jersey on camera. Safety is totally secondary. That middle to back of field is where lesser riders live and die. It seems like a risky proposition if he hasn't done some prior racing to be comfortable. That risk increases if he'd be trying to push to the front to assist a team result. IMO he'd be best served to target a lower profile race and serve as an JV ambassador in the meantime.

So contracts mean nothing? I think Jonas may have an opinion but I don't think he has the final word. That would otherwise be unprecedented in almost any team sport, especially one so heavily focused on sponsors. And nothing they are doing during recovery even comes close to the coverage that the Tour gets. By orders of magnitude.

Also I don't expect him to ride if he's not fit for it. I just think that if he's not in 100% shape to fight for the win, they will still send him because it means too much for the team and sponsors if he's there or not.

I guess we'll find out eventually depending on how his recovery goes. First of all he needs to get fit enough to actually race before it becomes a question they need to address at all.

 

[Red Rick]

What sponsorship value is there sending Vingegaard to the wolves in the Tour if he's not in a condition to contest the win?

Better skip it, and then make a grand return in La Vuelta.

 

[houtdffan]

Here is a video of the house inside.

https://tinyurl.com/JV-big-house

dangerous web page blocked

 

[ice&fire]

What sponsorship value is there sending Vingegaard to the wolves in the Tour if he's not in a condition to contest the win?

Better skip it, and then make a grand return in La Vuelta.

He'll get camera time anyways. Ask Aru.

 

[ingsve]

What sponsorship value is there sending Vingegaard to the wolves in the Tour if he's not in a condition to contest the win?

Better skip it, and then make a grand return in La Vuelta.

He's the double defending champion, He'll be highlighted and talked about on basically every broadcast on every single stage regardless of what happens on the road that day.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

He's the double defending champion, He'll be highlighted and talked about on basically every broadcast on every single stage regardless of what happens on the road that day.

That might still happen even if he isn't there.

 

[ingsve]

That might still happen even if he isn't there.

Sure to some extent but it won't really be the same. Especially if he is fit enough to win a stage still.

 

[Froome]

I believe if he's at 90/95% before the Tour, like he was before the Vuelta 2023, Visma will decide to put Vingegaard in the Tour, because he can still fight for the victory and improve the shape until the last week, where everything will be decided.

Now, this can be "wishfull thinking" by my side, but i believe he will be in the Tour, because Visma did not descarded yet his appearance there, and i believe a lot in his ability to recover faster. This guys doesn't appear to be humans. It's unbeliavable how fast Van aert is recovering after what happened to him.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

Sure to some extent but it won't really be the same. Especially if he is fit enough to win a stage still.

But if he's not able to contend for the overall podium, he can pretty much only lose by riding the race, unless he wins multiple stages.

 

[ingsve]

But if he's not able to contend for the overall podium, he can pretty much only lose by riding the race, unless he wins multiple stages.

What is he losing exactly? The opportunity to win Sibiu Tour?

 

[Samu Cuenca]

What is he losing exactly? The opportunity to win Sibiu Tour?

It can hurt his reputation and his confidence. It can quickly turn from a positive story about him overcoming injury and showing the race respect to one about the team making him race when he wasn't ready, or whether we'll ever see him back at his best.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

I believe if he's at 90/95% before the Tour, like he was before the Vuelta 2023, Visma will decide to put Vingegaard in the Tour, because he can still fight for the victory and improve the shape until the last week, where everything will be decided.

Now, this can be "wishfull thinking" by my side, but i believe he will be in the Tour, because Visma did not descarded yet his appearance there, and i believe a lot in his ability to recover faster. This guys doesn't appear to be humans. It's unbeliavable how fast Van aert is recovering after what happened to him.

I'm not sure if 90% Vingegaard can beat 100% Roglic. This would be tough. Hard to say anything for sure about Pogacar as he's never done a GT double and no idea what percentage he can reach (but probably not more than those 90%). If Pogacar was 100% preparing for the Tour then 90% Vingo would have small chances but Giro makes it a different situation.

 

[Cookster15]

I believe if he's at 90/95% before the Tour, like he was before the Vuelta 2023, Visma will decide to put Vingegaard in the Tour, because he can still fight for the victory and improve the shape until the last week, where everything will be decided.

Now, this can be "wishfull thinking" by my side, but i believe he will be in the Tour, because Visma did not descarded yet his appearance there, and i believe a lot in his ability to recover faster. This guys doesn't appear to be humans. It's unbeliavable how fast Van aert is recovering after what happened to him.

On wishful thinking, I think its a little early to be making predictions. We can't compare different injuries or riders. And recovering from big efforts on stage races is completely different to the body repairing broken tissues and bones from a crash. Maybe take Fran Maasan's advice -

In two weeks, we'll know what is possible

'Walk first, ride indoors and then on the road' - Jonas Vingegaard's road to recovery after Itzulia crash

'In two weeks, we'll know what is possible' - Visma DS Frans Maassen on Dane's chances of riding the Tour de France

www.cyclingnews.com

 

[Froome]

I'm not sure if 90% Vingegaard can beat 100% Roglic. This would be tough. Hard to say anything for sure about Pogacar as he's never done a GT double and no idea what percentage he can reach (but probably not more than those 90%). If Pogacar was 100% preparing for the Tour then 90% Vingo would have small chances but Giro makes it a different situation.

I'm not sure if Vingegaard can win the Tour at 90/95% or if he can beat Roglic and Pogacar with the Giro in his legs. My point is that the plan could be Vingegaard starting the Tour a bit "cooked" and improving during the first 2 weeks and peak in the last week where everything will be decided, since the Tour 2024 is absolutely backloaded. The first 2 weeks will be more about the top riders staying out of trouble.

I think the Tour will start to be decided one week before the finish on Nice at Plateau de beille.

Plateau de Beille-isola 2000-col de la Couillole-final TT, all in the last week, sunday to sunday.

So if he starts a bit "cooked" and he's able to improve day after day, i believe he can fight for the Tour, even if he starts at 90/95%.

I'm thinking in a good possible scenario. My point will not matter if Vingegaard will not be able to recover in time to the Tour. I'm just trying to say that even if doesn't start the tour at 100% i would take him if he were at 90/95%.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

I still think it's more likely they will skip the Tour (if Vingo is 90/95%) and focus on smashing the Vuelta with 100% Vingo.

 

[Red Rick]

What is he losing exactly? The opportunity to win Sibiu Tour?

What does it gain? Nothing.

What it costs is it's probably not great Vuelta prep to be really undercooked going into the Tour and then rip yourself inside out trying to get a result, be that a top 5 or a stage win or whatever.

 

[AmRacer]

I'm not sure if Vingegaard can win the Tour at 90/95% or if he can beat Roglic and Pogacar with the Giro in his legs. My point is that the plan could be Vingegaard starting the Tour a bit "cooked" and improving during the first 2 weeks and peak in the last week where everything will be decided, since the Tour 2024 is absolutely backloaded. The first 2 weeks will be more about the top riders staying out of trouble.

I think the Tour will start to be decided one week before the finish on Nice at Plateau de beille.

Plateau de Beille-isola 2000-col de la Couillole-final TT, all in the last week, sunday to sunday.

So if he starts a bit "cooked" and he's able to improve day after day, i believe he can fight for the Tour, even if he starts at 90/95%.

I'm thinking in a good possible scenario. My point will not matter if Vingegaard will not be able to recover in time to the Tour. I'm just trying to say that even if doesn't start the tour at 100% i would take him if he were at 90/95%.

Where's Remco in that equation?

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Where's Remco in that equation?

Eating a few hamburgers too many to win the Tour.

 

[Froome]

Where's Remco in that equation?

He is right there, but a little behind those guys at the moment.

 

[Oldermanish]

That might still happen even if he isn't there.

Exactly and, if he wants to train in tandem with the Tour he could do regional rides and would have more press than if he was packfill. One or two days of the Vingegaard update from the back would wear out. The press will focus on the combatants, as always.

 

[Oldermanish]

That's just from his perspective though so it comes down to whether he has a choice. If I was the sponsor I would demand that he was there as long as he is fit enough to ride a bike. Exposure at the Tour is just so much bigger than even a win at the Vuelta.

It's a good thing you're not the sponsor.
I would not be surprised if his contract has specific, guaranteed races where he is featured/protected. If he is recovering from a health issue his medical counsel would, and should supercede any other considerations.
The medieval days of demanding an athlete perform are gone for the front liners.
If he has a personal services contract that requires marketing they certainly could ask him to be at the venues, take pressers and be a sponsor representative.

 

[ingsve]

It's a good thing you're not the sponsor.
I would not be surprised if his contract has specific, guaranteed races where he is featured/protected. If he is recovering from a health issue his medical counsel would, and should supercede any other considerations.
The medieval days of demanding an athlete perform are gone for the front liners.
If he has a personal services contract that requires marketing they certainly could ask him to be at the venues, take pressers and be a sponsor representative.

We're not talking about him recovering from a health issue. He would still need to be fully fit to ride. But he can be fully fit to compete without having the full preparation needed to actually win the overall. People were saying that if he doesn't have the preparation to actually win the whole race then he shouldn't race at all and that is what I'm opposing. If you are 100 % healthy and are in decent racing shape then you better well show up to the biggest competition of the year when you are the biggest star of the team. Simple as that.