LA fleche wallone thread

[Nick2413]

Horner must’ve secretly been in the cars for Uno-X, no knuckleheads there.

 

[Scarponi]

I can't remember Evans as some kind of a super-puncheur. He had his win, and I think it is more than enough.
If someone should have won it more times, it's Purito Rodriguez.

Won a decent amount of stages on small punchy climbs at end of stages or “outsprinted” other GC faves. Didn’t race it much and mis timed it year before he won. Could have the 2-3

 

[Sciatic]

I can't remember Evans as some kind of a super-puncheur. He had his win, and I think it is more than enough.
If someone should have won it more times, it's Purito Rodriguez.

Evans won the Tour stage finish at Mur de Bretagne against Gilbert and Contador during that same span of years, and he said he should have won the year before he won at Flèche but he wasn’t experienced enough to time his effort probably.

But as you say it’s hard to imagine how Purito didn’t win several more.

ed. Scarponi beat me to it

 

[proffate]

I hate to say this but some riders are stupid. I see it on almost every race before summer. I just don't get it. Maybe there is some testosterone or macho hormones taking place. I do ride my bike a lot and I see it around me even on club rides. Listen I am a chicken when it comes to weather, but some people just think that they are penguins and when they least expect it cold legs and cold hands controls their bodies. We have had to take a few idiots back to their house because they were shivering. Just because the sun is up does not mean squat. On top of that you have cold rain, please!!!
Maybe I am wrong and I understand some bodies cope with cold weather more than others but I have seen this behavior a lot around me to understand that many riders are Unprepared.

BTW, the coldest day registered for the year for Races was at the Tour of the Alps (5°C average). I saw that on their broadcast. Maybe rain made the difference, but still. Some good takes on cold weather gear by the king knucklehead himself below:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KKz1VBQ2vZU

You act as if it's impossible to overdress. Getting your attire just right when you don't know how the weather will be is very difficult (especially as it can be a lot of different things on one ride). If you overdress and sweat on a climb, you can easily be worse off on the next descent. Plus this isn't a club ride with coffee breaks --- apparel may have gotten "better" over the years but it hasn't gotten easier to put on or take off in the middle of a race, quite the opposite.

5C is no problem at all if it's dry and sunny. Water is way more of an issue. So I don't see that statistic as particularly meaningful.

In the particular case of FW I would blame the team staff for not paying closer attention to the weather forecasts which may change suddenly, as they sit comfortably in the team cars.

 

[samhocking]

Well the guys that came second and thirds were in summer kit. Not even race mitts, leg warmers or arm warmers on one of them iirc. just a jersey and a gilet. End of the day you go back to the car in a race like FW and it kicks off, you're out the race anyway, so might as well just race with what you have if you survive you survive, if not you pull out and don't win just the same, nothing lost.

 

[Rob5091]

QS's Vervaeke apparently not happy with the UAE tactics,
Just when it started to rain, they attacked. So you didn't have time to go to the car to get clothes. I immediately rode to the front, but in the chaos that followed I never got another jacket,” Vervaeke explains in conversation with Het Nieuwsblad.

“It's a tactic like any other,” the experienced, 30-year-old Belgian adds. “They wanted to screw the peloton, but in the end they mainly screwed themselves. At the moment of their attack I thought: they must have rain gear, but apparently, that was not the case.”

 

[Bolder]

Plus this isn't a club ride with coffee breaks --- apparel may have gotten "better" over the years but it hasn't gotten easier to put on or take off in the middle of a race, quite the opposite.

This is definitely a problem. I was watching someone in the Alps race yesterday wrestle their jacket like it was an alligator. Back in the day all we had were those clear plastic jackets that sealed with velcro but flapped in the wind. Remember them?

 

[scribers]

This is definitely a problem. I was watching someone in the Alps race yesterday wrestle their jacket like it was an alligator. Back in the day all we had were those clear plastic jackets that sealed with velcro but flapped in the wind. Remember them?

We wore newspapers and we liked it!!

 

[shadowrider]

You act as if it's impossible to overdress. Getting your attire just right when you don't know how the weather will be is very difficult (especially as it can be a lot of different things on one ride). If you overdress and sweat on a climb, you can easily be worse off on the next descent. Plus this isn't a club ride with coffee breaks --- apparel may have gotten "better" over the years but it hasn't gotten easier to put on or take off in the middle of a race, quite the opposite.

5C is no problem at all if it's dry and sunny. Water is way more of an issue. So I don't see that statistic as particularly meaningful.

In the particular case of FW I would blame the team staff for not paying closer attention to the weather forecasts which may change suddenly, as they sit comfortably in the team cars.

I don't agree. Of course you have to avoid sweating to much. But that can be easily solved by being well dressed (from the start or when it's threatening to rain) and taking off the rain jacket when it stays dry and/or gets warmer. Then put the rain jacket back on when the weather starts to snow/rain or cool down (or before a long descent). This way you can perfectly regulate your temperature. It just takes some effort and time. Just like drinking and eating on time (and more) in bad weather conditions.

Your system makes no sense. You also don't seem to know that if you do get sweaty, keeping the heat inside will prevent you from hypothermia. You have to keep riding/running etc. and you are not allowed to take off your clothes (even if the weather improves). But cold rain/water coming from outside, soaking your clothes, will always suck the heat out of your body, even if you put on three layers of clothes afterwards.

 

[Escarabajo]

You act as if it's impossible to overdress. Getting your attire just right when you don't know how the weather will be is very difficult (especially as it can be a lot of different things on one ride). If you overdress and sweat on a climb, you can easily be worse off on the next descent. Plus this isn't a club ride with coffee breaks --- apparel may have gotten "better" over the years but it hasn't gotten easier to put on or take off in the middle of a race, quite the opposite.

5C is no problem at all if it's dry and sunny. Water is way more of an issue. So I don't see that statistic as particularly meaningful.

In the particular case of FW I would blame the team staff for not paying closer attention to the weather forecasts which may change suddenly, as they sit comfortably in the team cars.

I agree with some of what you said but not the bold:.
- First, look at the forecast. It can't be that wrong few hours before the race. It just can't.
- It is a fine line between being overdress and not. There is just no excuse with today's gear. Just not. I do it all the time and people laugh at me and call be jungle boy. You can take your vest, arm warmers off in a hurry. Even the gloves. It is very easy. It is harder to go back to the car to request it and put all that on. The Shoe protectors, can be aerodynamic and does not compromise being warm. Not at all. These are just excuses by the riders. And excuses for nothing with todays technology. Look at the winner and the way he was dressed. If it was going to be sunny I am sure he would have tossed the jacket, gloves and arm warmers to the side of the road in a hurry. No more than 30 seconds. And no waste of energy. This is just riders being silly like Chris Horner said.
- No excuse for the low fat climbers being this underdressed. Just no excuse at all. Please don't play the macho man thing.
- Last but not least, sometimes the sun is out but it is just painted. It just makes for a beautiful picture because it was freaking cold with the Windchill factor. The guy who makes the videos at Movistar came out of the bus with long sweat pants and a thick hoodie and the first thing he said while filming was, "Sh!t I wasn't expecting to be this cold with this beautiful sun". Then he looked at his backpack for an extra jacket. And that was only with the sun out. Don't get me wrong but the macho culture and testosterone sometimes can get to you. I go for a ride and everyone looks around to see who everyone is dressed. The sun is out and most everyone start taking the arm warmers, leg warmers, and gloves off. Then everyone does it and look for who to bully. Look at the riders when they were signing to register for the race. They were cold, red faces, and all bundled up. Then they all showed up half naked for the race. Go figure.
- Last but not least, look at some of the big guys who had extra fat. they were bundled up. The irony!

 

[Sciatic]

Well the guys that came second and thirds were in summer kit. Not even race mitts, leg warmers or arm warmers on one of them iirc. just a jersey and a gilet. End of the day you go back to the car in a race like FW and it kicks off, you're out the race anyway, so might as well just race with what you have if you survive you survive, if not you pull out and don't win just the same, nothing lost.

Riders start to jettison arm warmers, heavier gloves, rain jackets etc before the final climb, though obviously not the tights. Did you go back and track what those (2nd & 3rd place) riders were wearing throughout the race?

 

[Danskebjerge]

5C is no problem at all if it's dry and sunny. Water is way more of an issue. So I don't see that statistic as particularly meaningful.

Any naked skin is exposed to cold in 5 degree heat - whether the sun is shining or not. Long tights and sleeves have minimal impact on wind resistance, and you won't get too hot as long as the temperature is below 10 degrees. The same goes for gloves for the whole hand - you can get very thin gloves, and they won't get too hot at single digit temperatures.

Nice to see in this race that the right clothes make a difference. Skjelmose has admitted that Uno-X did it right.

 

[proffate]

Any naked skin is exposed to cold in 5 degree heat - whether the sun is shining or not. Long tights and sleeves have minimal impact on wind resistance, and you won't get too hot as long as the temperature is below 10 degrees. The same goes for gloves for the whole hand - you can get very thin gloves, and they won't get too hot at single digit temperatures.

My point is that the temperature is not the only ambient condition that affects how quickly your core temperature will drop. Surely you're not disagreeing with that point.

You just have to acknowledge that dressing is very personal. Old men bundle up way more than is necessary, in my experience, but then they're probably riding around at 125w average, so generating next to no intrinsic warmth. Skjelmose with his minimal body fat and also low power output --- you really don't have to put out that many watts on average to push 60kg through the middle of a peloton --- probably does need to dress warmly.

I have more than enough personal experience with temperatures in the -5 to +40 range and I definitely do not need or want leg coverings if I'm racing at +5. And sometimes I think about this aspect of the pros doing Z2 rides: for the big guns like Pogacar Z2 (75% of FTP) is something like 320w. It's physically easy for him, but he's still generating enormous amounts of heat.

Obviously in this particular case more clothes was better than fewer clothes. My point is that anyone who thinks you should just wear everything you have in case the weather turns is probably doing more coffee rides than performance oriented rides.

 

[Escarabajo]

@ proffate Just Ask Chris Horner then. He was a professional.

The funny thing is the big riders being more protected against the cold than the skinnier riders.
Bernal is always protected against the cold (except for his hands, I don't know why) but always strong in cold weather. I think the only exception to this could be Pogacar. But you will be vulnerable, it doesn't matter who you are.

 

[Danskebjerge]

I have more than enough personal experience with temperatures in the -5 to +40 range and I definitely do not need or want leg coverings if I'm racing at +5. And sometimes I think about this aspect of the pros doing Z2 rides: for the big guns like Pogacar Z2 (75% of FTP) is something like 320w. It's physically easy for him, but he's still generating enormous amounts of heat.

Obviously in this particular case more clothes was better than fewer clothes. My point is that anyone who thinks you should just wear everything you have in case the weather turns is probably doing more coffee rides than performance oriented rides.

I've participated once at a race where the temperature was +5 celsius. And a couple of times in +7. It was dry in all instances.

What is important here, is if there are descents. On descents, it doesn't matter how many watts you can do, and what your heartrate is - at +5, you're virtually in a freezer, and two minutes without pedalling is probably enough to make your whole body stiff or shaking if you're wearing summer clothing. Rain makes it even worse of course.

It's true that you sometimes see amateurs with too much clothes in spring and autumn. That's mainly a problem among runners, though, as a runner's body gets warmed up much more intensely than a bike rider's.

I agree that there are individual differences, but on the other hand, I've seen managers insist on riders wearing long or semi-long tights no matter what they thought was the most comfortable - because especially on the legs, you don't necessarily find out yourself that your knees are too cold.

 

[Volderke]

I don't agree. Of course you have to avoid sweating to much. But that can be easily solved by being well dressed (from the start or when it's threatening to rain) and taking off the rain jacket when it stays dry and/or gets warmer. Then put the rain jacket back on when the weather starts to snow/rain or cool down (or before a long descent). This way you can perfectly regulate your temperature. It just takes some effort and time. Just like drinking and eating on time (and more) in bad weather conditions.

Your system makes no sense. You also don't seem to know that if you do get sweaty, keeping the heat inside will prevent you from hypothermia. You have to keep riding/running etc. and you are not allowed to take off your clothes (even if the weather improves). But cold rain/water coming from outside, soaking your clothes, will always suck the heat out of your body, even if you put on three layers of clothes afterwards.

That was the main problem: there wasn't time, and the effort done by UAE to drill the peloton on a hill, exactly when the first freezing cold shower started, meant that most riders couldn't afford going back to the team car while there was a huge risk being dropped by UAE.

What UAE did and Vervaeke mentioned this, was a suicide mission. They effectively killed everyone in their own squad and created a lot of collateral damage.
It was very hard to anticipate when the first shower would come and riders don't always have their rain jackets with them from half an hour before that event, and when the event came, UAE did stupid things.

 

[proffate]

I've participated once at a race where the temperature was +5 celsius. And a couple of times in +7. It was dry in all instances.

What is important here, is if there are descents. On descents, it doesn't matter how many watts you can do, and what your heartrate is - at +5, you're virtually in a freezer, and two minutes without pedalling is probably enough to make your whole body stiff or shaking if you're wearing summer clothing. Rain makes it even worse of course.

It's true that you sometimes see amateurs with too much clothes in spring and autumn. That's mainly a problem among runners, though, as a runner's body gets warmed up much more intensely than a bike rider's.

I agree that there are individual differences, but on the other hand, I've seen managers insist on riders wearing long or semi-long tights no matter what they thought was the most comfortable - because especially on the legs, you don't necessarily find out yourself that your knees are too cold.

I used to live in a place where my rides rarely exceeded 5C for half the year. (And it was mountainous, which as you note, adds substantial extra complications.) I knew the exact temperature/time/clothes matrix I would need to stay warm. For example how long can I use my fingers wearing these particular gloves at 0C, 5C, 10C. Cloud cover affects it too, but is harder to predict and adds ambiguity. For me, the fingers and throat are the first things I need to protect, but that's obviously different for others who take their gloves off before other warmers. If you've only raced at 5C once in your life, I can imagine it would be easy to get wrong. So it's not that surprising a welshman knew how much he had to wear during a deluge, although why a Dane got it wrong I'm not so sure. Maybe he's part of Gen Z(wift).

That said, today at Liege, Stevie Williams got dropped like a rock while he was still in full scuba gear and the front of the race had stripped everything but arm warmers. So maybe he doesn't know what he's doing and just got lucky that the weather matched his gear at FW.

 

[Danskebjerge]

I used to live in a place where my rides rarely exceeded 5C for half the year. (And it was mountainous, which as you note, adds substantial extra complications.) I knew the exact temperature/time/clothes matrix I would need to stay warm. For example how long can I use my fingers wearing these particular gloves at 0C, 5C, 10C. Cloud cover affects it too, but is harder to predict and adds ambiguity. For me, the fingers and throat are the first things I need to protect, but that's obviously different for others who take their gloves off before other warmers. If you've only raced at 5C once in your life, I can imagine it would be easy to get wrong. So it's not that surprising a welshman knew how much he had to wear during a deluge, although why a Dane got it wrong I'm not so sure. Maybe he's part of Gen Z(wift).

That said, today at Liege, Stevie Williams got dropped like a rock while he was still in full scuba gear and the front of the race had stripped everything but arm warmers. So maybe he doesn't know what he's doing and just got lucky that the weather matched his gear at FW.

I think we agree that it's important to analyze on the weather before a ride. That's become much easier in recent years with all the apps and radar info.

The temperatures were sligthly higher today than on Wednesday. And of course, it rained less. That means that less clothes were needed. Obviously it's easier to take off clothes than to put it on. The main problem could be the time it takes to do so - we saw Pidcock possibly wasting valuable seconds taking off his shoe covers 40 kilometers from the finish line.

I believe Williams could have taken off his jacket if he wanted to. But like Skjelmose, Hirschi and others who suffered in the cold on Wednesday, he didn't have the legs today.

 

[proffate]

I think we agree that it's important to analyze on the weather before a ride. That's become much easier in recent years with all the apps and radar info.

The temperatures were sligthly higher today than on Wednesday. And of course, it rained less. That means that less clothes were needed. Obviously it's easier to take off clothes than to put it on. The main problem could be the time it takes to do so - we saw Pidcock possibly wasting valuable seconds taking off his shoe covers 40 kilometers from the finish line.

I believe Williams could have taken off his jacket if he wanted to. But like Skjelmose, Hirschi and others who suffered in the cold on Wednesday, he didn't have the legs today.

5 of the top 10 in LBL were at FW so I don't think there's any evidence of correlation between getting cold and performing 4 days later.

 

[Danskebjerge]

5 of the top 10 in LBL were at FW so I don't think there's any evidence of correlation between getting cold and performing 4 days later.

But there's evidence that Williams was slowed down by wearing too much clothes in Liège?

Experts have said that the reason for Skjelmose's bad performance may very well have been his hypothermia on Wednesday.