Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[Rob5091]

These guys are weirdos, nerds, they ain't normal kids.

Maybe this was always the fact for cycling, but it will also factor in with drug responses, sudden increases in abilities etc. Jonas is a good example where extreme structure also likely is part of the explanation to why he showed extreme improvement after joining Rabo. Not saying that means he's clean. Far from it. But these things factor in way more than for the average dudes.

I'm just struck by it. The more I look for narcissism the more autist-ish guys I find 🤣

(And I hope I won't have to explain how neurology and getting a diagnosis ain't the same thing and I'm talking about the neurology here, not trying to diagnose them or those similar to them.)

The way cycling has changed into a sport where everything can be measured and optimized through data also favours nerds in itself.

This is what Tom Dumoulin talked about recently -

"From the age of 15 or 16, these boys often receive the same guidance as the pros. It has become so calculated and structured in terms of training and nutrition. That knowledge was not available when I was sixteen. I didn't know how Michael Boogerd trained, but now every sixteen-year-old can watch Strava and copy what the pros do.”
As mentioned though, Dumoulin also has concerns about the way cycling is going. “I wonder if that will burn them out," he says. "It would certainly burn me out, but they are different character types. I'm a bit of a free bird, an enthusiast. I enjoyed the adventure and the training, but not when the minute and wattage was specified. Another character type, like Remco Evenepoel, thinks that is fantastic. He also says: just write to me what I have to do and what I have to eat. Jonas Vingegaard also does exactly what the trainer says and he loves it, it benefits him. The younger generation is really raised with this and they find it normal.”

This might also explain Vingegaard's mental problem with nerves or whatever it is. I'd still like to know what "Academy" Visma sent Vingegaard to.

 

[noob]

This is what Tom Dumoulin talked about recently -

This might also explain Vingegaard's mental problem with nerves or whatever it is. I'd still like to know what "Academy" Visma sent Vingegaard to.

Yup this! This is gonna suit the nerds who struggles with executive functioning, like planning etc. Since it's all scheduled for them they just follow it and do what they shall. They're working hard but are also taken care of like they were children. Because they were always like children with "special needs". If they had normal jobs they might not even have made it. Like this is what they can do and this is what they have to do.

So basically the peleton today are gonna fill up with autist-ish people prepared to have no life from early age and who has the grit to stick to it until they're adults. Those who can't stand it are gonna quit.

Mental health problems are gonna be rampant and they might've been even bigger if they didn't have cycling in their lives. Ironically.

Remco and MvdP outbursts, Jonas introversion. Pog treating it all like a game. Essentially they are all still kids. But they're obsessed with optimazing themselves.

Anything that makes us feel like they're robots is basically what I'm aiming at with my descriptions lol.

So it's not just the doping, it's the poeple on the the bikes too.

(I don't think it's a coincidence that people like Lantern Rouge can succed as a podcast and get hired by teams for tactics either. It's just another side of the same robotic coin )

 

[Red Rick]

I think transfusions came before EPO, then there were EPO infused transfusions! Then when the EPO tests came out, transfusions again, then micro-dosing EPO and transfusions.

It's the frickin dopers circle of life

Doping in 2040? Booze and amphetamines, but we will get the sub 35 minute AdH

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Why is Teddy liked despite some unbelievable performances?

It all started on the 19th of September 2020 in PDBF, where Primoz was sensationally crushed by the Slovenian wonderboy. JV realized Rogla was not enough and they needed a new solution against the UAE's new mutant.

So they decided to develop their own model. From a secret source I know they called it Project Skeletor. Creating a guy with the ultimate climber physique, calves like Parthenon columns and incredible pound per pound power. The first version (2021) couldn't beat the baby-faced machine but Ventoux stage gave hopes for success (Teddy-2020 model clearly had flaws). So they made further improvements for the next year...

The rest is history. Skeletor became the Tour dominator while in his defeats Teddy showed human side a few times and that's why public started liking him more than before. Robotic behaviour of the JV's masterpiece clearly helped as well. What's the next chapter in this story? Time will tell!

 

[Andre]

will the scientifically technology catch up soon and uncover the frauds who dope? Or is it maybe not even convenient to do so now? How many years must we wait for another bust to go down? I mean a big bust like with Lance.

 

[Froome]

Why is Teddy liked despite some unbelievable performances?

It all started on the 19th of September 2020 in PDBF, where Primoz was sensationally crushed by the Slovenian wonderboy. JV realized Rogla was not enough and they needed a new solution against the UAE's new mutant.

So they decided to develop their own model. From a secret source I know they called it Project Skeletor. Creating a guy with the ultimate climber physique, calves like Parthenon columns and incredible pound per pound power. The first version (2021) couldn't beat the baby-faced machine but Ventoux stage gave hopes for success (Teddy-2020 model clearly had flaws). So they made further improvements for the next year...

The rest is history. Skeletor became the Tour dominator while in his defeats Teddy showed human side a few times and that's why public started liking him more than before. Robotic behaviour of the JV's masterpiece clearly helped as well. What's the next chapter in this story? Time will tell!

Vingo W/KG matters!

Long live the Vingo's W/KG 😂

 

[GuntherL1]

I wonder if the trolls would look at Pogacar differently if he at the age of 18 was beating up 17 year olds like Remco, instead of competing against men.

I also wonder if the trolls really believe that winning a 90-kilometre junior race is worth more than, say, fifth place in the Tour of Slovenia and only older guys beat you from WT teams like Majka, Visconti, Haig...

It also makes you wonder why the trolls are so angry because he couldn't win a stage against two years older guys like Mader, Vlasov, Dunbar... even though he beat them easily in GC.

and when did he have a bad ITT? Except for the 2023 World Championship when he was dead for obvious reasons.

Now compare these results to his pre-UAE time trials.

 

[Ripper]

will the scientifically technology catch up soon and uncover the frauds who dope? Or is it maybe not even convenient to do so now? How many years must we wait for another bust to go down? I mean a big bust like with Lance.

ROTFLOL It is more or less there for the most part. I am not sure the political will is there, either for the nations themselves or the UCI.

It will most likely require a national body to have a bit of a "hate on" for a particular rider. At its simplest, that is what resulted in Pharmstrong's demise. If he had stayed retired I think it likely would not have been blown wide open. I mean, other than a few rotten apples, it's been cleanish since Festina, no?

Perhaps someone closer to this matter knows otherwise and whether Armstrong was going to get major targeting before the comeback, etc.?

 

[Ripper]

Now compare these results to his pre-UAE time trials.

I think the problem with Toddy's initial ascendency is that pre-UAE he was also a very young rider, so that provides the possibility that contributing factors were physical development and professional support (of the non-doped means). I mean, if Froome's transformation story was enough for many, many people to suspend their disbelief, then Toddy's is at least 100 times better/more plausible.

His continued performances are beyond the pale for me. I cannot agree with Georgie's assessment that it is all genetics. I mean, we can tell ourselves whatever we want to stay in the game ....

I do think there is quite a lot to the level being brought to juniors now. I see locally a degree of professional coaching and equipment that really new, young racers are just so much faster and more aggressive. But they would still get absolutely obliterated by Toddy

 

[Slavique Nuke]

Now compare these results to his pre-UAE time trials.

You seem to come to this thread every few months and literally try to start the same argument over and over again. Already the fourth comment in this thread from 2020 tried to explain this to your banned/deleted account.

I think it's a bit harsh calling his 2017-18 as hit and miss. He won the biggest junior race in the world, while riding for a very small team. Of course his TTing and general level is going to take a big step up when he leaves a CT to join a World Tour team with much better coaching, facilities and equipment.

The pre-UAE ITT sample size is quite low. It's often difficult to determine what might have happened in some races without more detailed coverage, which is rare in junior races.

Btw, in the junior races, the ITT is usually held on a day when there are two stages in one day. For example, his worst ITT result was in the Juniors Peace Race in Czehia, but he won the other stage later that day. Perhaps he took the ITT easy and saved his energy for the second stage. There was a race in Switzerland where he was last on the stage, more than 20 minutes behind, maybe he was involved in a crash. I don't know, but doing ITT afterwards was certainly not ideal..

So my view is that just checking ITT results from junior races on the PCS and drawing conclusions from them is completely pointless.

 

[Peyroteo94]

Doping in 2040? Booze and amphetamines, but we will get the sub 35 minute AdH

I would love to see a time trial on AdH again.

 

[Ripper]

Doping in 2040? Booze and amphetamines, but we will get the sub 35 minute AdH

Cocaine and booze didn't work well enough?

FWIW, coke is still the drug of choice of some athletes

Some of the workout supplements they sell in the body building stores would work as a finishing bottle by "creating your own stimulant stack" (OMG that is some funny sh*t).

But really, just get a doc to indicate you have exercise induced asthma and also that you have ADHD. A few prescriptions later, and perhaps some caffeine pills jammed into something else and ... you too can have sudden heart failure

 

[GuntherL1]

You seem to come to this thread every few months and literally try to start the same argument over and over again. Already the fourth comment in this thread from 2020 tried to explain this to your banned/deleted account.



The pre-UAE ITT sample size is quite low. It's often difficult to determine what might have happened in some races without more detailed coverage, which is rare in junior races.

Btw, in the junior races, the ITT is usually held on a day when there are two stages in one day. For example, his worst ITT result was in the Juniors Peace Race in Czehia, but he won the other stage later that day. Perhaps he took the ITT easy and saved his energy for the second stage. There was a race in Switzerland where he was last on the stage, more than 20 minutes behind, maybe he was involved in a crash. I don't know, but doing ITT afterwards was certainly not ideal..

So my view is that just checking ITT results from junior races on the PCS and drawing conclusions from them is completely pointless.

I have a life outside of this forum. You should try it too. I do feel honored that you're going through my comments. Maybe you'll learn something.

Your 'view' is wrong. Ten races in four seasons is not a small sample size. This isn't only about junior races, but also his first two U23 years. Most ITT specialists were great at it as juniors or U23. Evenepoel, Cancellara or Tarling. Even McNulty or Bjerg showed this consistency if you want to compare with other UAE riders. Only the Slovenian 'phenomenon' had to wait until he joined Gianetti's team. So the question remains: what changed?

 

[Slavique Nuke]

I have a life outside of this forum. You should try it too. I do feel honored that you're going through my comments. Maybe you'll learn something.

Your 'view' is wrong. Ten races in four seasons is not a small sample size. This isn't only about junior races, but also his first two U23 years. Most ITT specialists were great at it as juniors or U23. Evenepoel, Cancellara or Tarling. Even McNulty or Bjerg showed this consistency if you want to compare with other UAE riders. Only the Slovenian 'phenomenon' had to wait until he joined Gianetti's team. So the question remains: what changed?

All I did was look at the first page of this thread where I saw that you started this thread with your banned account 4 years ago with literally the same argument you are shouting now. So it seems that your vendetta against Pogacar is a pretty high priority in your life, despite your claim to have a rich life outside the forum.

And what are you talking about? Pogacar is not an ITT specialist. He has won only 2 ITTs in his life outside the Slovenian championships. Both were in GT, where GC guys tend to do better for obvious reasons. One was mountain ITT, where his biggest rival massively underperformed and finished only 5th. The other win was a flat ITT, against more or less second tier opponents, where the biggest favourite underperformed and finished only 4th.

 

[Ripper]

All I did was look at the first page of this thread where I saw that you started this thread with your banned account 4 years ago with literally the same argument you are shouting now. So it seems that your vendetta against Pogacar is a pretty high priority in your life, despite your claim to have a rich life outside the forum.

And what are you talking about? Pogacar is not an ITT specialist. He has won only 2 ITTs in his life outside the Slovenian championships. Both were in GT, where GC guys tend to do better for obvious reasons. One was mountain ITT, where his biggest rival massively underperformed and finished only 5th. The other win was a flat ITT, against more or less second tier opponents, where the biggest favourite underperformed and finished only 4th.

Hold on a moment, one can rail against a specific rider or more and not have a vendetta or hold that person in high priority. To use myself as an example, I know over the years I have demonstrated some annoyance or even anger with certain riders, but I definitely did not have a vendetta nor did I think about them that much.

And while I agree with your comment that Toddy is not a TT specialist, let's also not be too revisionistic about the 2020 tour final TT; Pogo absolutely smoked everyone, by a lot. Meanwhile Rogo underperformed a bit, but if he were around 35-40 seconds faster, he places second but still loses the tour.

 

[GuntherL1]

All I did was look at the first page of this thread where I saw that you started this thread with your banned account 4 years ago with literally the same argument you are shouting now. So it seems that your vendetta against Pogacar is a pretty high priority in your life, despite your claim to have a rich life outside the forum.

And what are you talking about? Pogacar is not an ITT specialist. He has won only 2 ITTs in his life outside the Slovenian championships. Both were in GT, where GC guys tend to do better for obvious reasons. One was mountain ITT, where his biggest rival massively underperformed and finished only 5th. The other win was a flat ITT, against more or less second tier opponents, where the biggest favourite underperformed and finished only 4th.

Yep. Not a ITT specialist, but he beat the entire TJV team in the TdF 2020 and in the first ITT in the TdF of 2021 he beat most of the elite including Vingegaard, Van Aert, Küng and Roglic. Second tier, right?
You're trolling, aren't you? Nobody can be this stupid.

 

[GuntherL1]

Hold on a moment, one can rail against a specific rider or more and not have a vendetta or hold that person in high priority. To use myself as an example, I know over the years I have demonstrated some annoyance or even anger with certain riders, but I definitely did not have a vendetta nor did I think about them that much.

And while I agree with your comment that Toddy is not a TT specialist, let's also not be too revisionistic about the 2020 tour final TT; Pogo absolutely smoked everyone, by a lot. Meanwhile Rogo underperformed a bit, but if he were around 35-40 seconds faster, he places second but still loses the tour.

I mostly despise Gianetti. He's the dirtiest rider and sports director in history. That's why I put him in the title. Unfortunately, it's too difficult for Slavic Noob to understand.

 

[Froome]

Yep. Not a ITT specialist, but he beat the entire TJV team in the TdF 2020 and in the first ITT in the TdF of 2021 he beat most of the elite including Vingegaard, Van Aert, Küng and Roglic. Second tier, right?
You're trolling, aren't you? Nobody can be this stupid.

I think he is trying to say that Pogacar is specialist TT in Grand Tours.

In other races like ITT Worlds he is not so good.

 

[Slavique Nuke]

And while I agree with your comment that Toddy is not a TT specialist, let's also not be too revisionistic about the 2020 tour final TT; Pogo absolutely smoked everyone, by a lot. Meanwhile Rogo underperformed a bit, but if he were around 35-40 seconds faster, he places second but still loses the tour.

Roglic underperformed not just a bit, but massively. Look at the names of the people who had a better time going up the climb than him. Roglic should have finished at least second there, not 11th, and then he would have had at least a minute faster ITT.

Yep. Not a ITT specialist, but he beat the entire TJV team in the TdF 2020 and in the first ITT in the TdF of 2021 he beat most of the elite including Vingegaard, Van Aert, Küng and Roglic. Second tier, right?
You're trolling, aren't you? Nobody can be this stupid.

In 2020, Pogacar was actually behind Dumoulin on the flat. He beat him on the climb, which was not unexpected. It was surprising at the time that WvA finished that high in a mountain ITT and Roglic massively underperformed.

Did you watch the race in 2021? Roglic crashed on the third stage, later abandoned the race. As I wrote in a previous comment, WvA massively underperformed. He only beat MvdP by a second when many expected him to take the yellow jersey. Did you really consider Vingegaard an elite ITT specialist in 2021? Küng hardly elite category

I think it is time to ignore your comments, as you keep repeating the same thing over and over again. Replying to you is a waste of time. So bye

 

[Ripper]

Roglic underperformed not just a bit, but massively. Look at the names of the people who had a better time going up the climb than him. Roglic should have finished at least second there, not 11th, and then he would have had at least a minute faster ITT.

In 2020, Pogacar was actually behind Dumoulin on the flat. He beat him on the climb, which was not unexpected. It was surprising at the time that WvA finished that high in a mountain ITT and Roglic massively underperformed.

Did you watch the race in 2021? Roglic crashed on the third stage, later abandoned the race. As I wrote in a previous comment, WvA massively underperformed. He only beat MvdP by a second when many expected him to take the yellow jersey. Did you really consider Vingegaard an elite ITT specialist in 2021? Küng hardly elite category

I think it is time to ignore your comments, as you keep repeating the same thing over and over again. Replying to you is a waste of time. So bye

Yes, Rogo was not at his normal level, although he also appeared to blow during the climb. It has been stated he underperformed. I think it is a misnomer to blame it on Rogo's having a terrible TT; he did not have an awesome TT (exacerbated by a crappy bike change), but it was much more than that. I believe Toggy was about on-par with Dumo and other TT experts on the flat run in. He absolutely flew along the whole TT and smoked everyone. It was not a pure case of Rogo sucking. Toggo Poggo also demolished everyone and Rogo could have been second and still lost the Tour, such was the spanking.

My comparison here is less with Rogo per se as it is that Taddy layethed the smackdown on everyone that day. He embarrassed the whole field.

 

[Slavique Nuke]

Yes, Rogo was not at his normal level, although he also appeared to blow during the climb. It has been stated he underperformed. I think it is a misnomer to blame it on Rogo's having a terrible TT; he did not have an awesome TT (exacerbated by a crappy bike change), but it was much more than that. I believe Toggy was about on-par with Dumo and other TT experts on the flat run in. He absolutely flew along the whole TT and smoked everyone. It was not a pure case of Rogo sucking. Toggo Poggo also demolished everyone and Rogo could have been second and still lost the Tour, such was the spanking.

My comparison here is less with Rogo per se as it is that Taddy layethed the smackdown on everyone that day. He embarrassed the whole field.

The gap between first and second is still the result of one guy doing what was expected of him, while the other failed spectacularly. As is often the case with Roglic, crashes and stuff, he is mentally fragile.

Dumoulin may have felt he had a good ITT on that day, but to start a stage like this without any pressure to win or any great motivation is not like having the yellow jersey in front of your eyes. Even Richie Porte who fought for the podium, almost 36, clocked the same time as him. And if you consider that he finished 10th in the ITT World Championships a week later, it's safe to say that he's been in much better ITT form in his life than he was on that stage.

I'm not saying there's no 'clinic' stuff here, but a lot of people over-mystify that ITT just because one guy did what was expected but the other failed.

 

[Blobs]

I'm not saying there's no 'clinic' stuff here, but a lot of people over-mystify that ITT just because one guy did what was expected but the other failed.

It might feel that way in hindsight, but no one expected it back then.

 

[Ripper]

The gap between first and second is still the result of one guy doing what was expected of him, while the other failed spectacularly. As is often the case with Roglic, crashes and stuff, he is mentally fragile.

Dumoulin may have felt he had a good ITT on that day, but to start a stage like this without any pressure to win or any great motivation is not like having the yellow jersey in front of your eyes. Even Richie Porte who fought for the podium, almost 36, clocked the same time as him. And if you consider that he finished 10th in the ITT World Championships a week later, it's safe to say that he's been in much better ITT form in his life than he was on that stage.

I'm not saying there's no 'clinic' stuff here, but a lot of people over-mystify that ITT just because one guy did what was expected but the other failed.

Dumo was ahead of Wout, and Wout was second at World's, so I would not read to much into that either. As I have noted, Rogo aside, Poggy did not do what was "expected", he smoked everyone by a fair margin. It was a massive leap from where he was and was unexpected; that is as much evident today as it was when it happened.

Where there's smoke there's fire.

Not sure if you are defending the absurdness of Poggo?

 

[Slavique Nuke]

It might feel that way in hindsight, but no one expected it back then.

So what did people expect? Pog had beaten Roglic in the hilly Slovenian ITT championship a few months earlier.

Dumo was ahead of Wout, and Wout was second at World's, so I would not read to much into that either. As I have noted, Rogo aside, Poggy did not do what was "expected", he smoked everyone by a fair margin. It was a massive leap from where he was and was unexpected; that is as much evident today as it was when it happened.

Where there's smoke there's fire.

Not sure if you are defending the absurdness of Poggo?

WvA paced that ITT quite badly, he lost massive time in the first 14 kilometres. Dumo did massive domestique work almost every day. Roglic choked. MAL did MAL things, maybe he killed his legs on the Col de la Loze. Apart from the early starter Cavagna, who else cared about this ITT?

Beating the almost 36-year-old Porte by 81 seconds is absurd?

 

[Ripper]

So what did people expect? Pog had beaten Roglic in the hilly Slovenian ITT championship a few months earlier.



WvA paced that ITT quite badly, he lost massive time in the first 14 kilometres. Dumo did massive domestique work almost every day. Roglic choked. MAL did MAL things, maybe he killed his legs on the Col de la Loze. Apart from the early starter Cavagna, who else cared about this ITT?

Beating the almost 36-year-old Porte by 81 seconds is absurd?

OK, so you are defending absurdity then, that's fine.