105 th Giro di Lombardia. La classica delle foglie morte.

[El Pistolero]

Paris Nice comes before MSR does it not



Wow thats short sighted. Valverde just does Liege and the Vuelta? You might recall that he only didnt do Tour in 09 because Italy threatened to arrest him, and in 10 he got banned just before it. Before that he did the Tour in both 08 and 07.



He wins a stage or 2 every now and again, ergo he is a great stage racer?

Of course Phil can win stages. Performing on 1 day is kind of like performing in a 1 day stage race.

Funny that you mention his Tour stage and yellow jersey. Didnt that all come on the first day? He just let rip after a days racing like he does on the Cauberg and got a victory and yellow for a day. No great stage racing truimph that.

Wallone and ZLM, nice, but to quote Shania Twain, that dont impress me much.

Eneco was much more impressive, chapeau to Gilbert there.


What is the point of all this anyway.

Of course i never even said anything about Gilberts stage racing prowess in the first place. Never said he was crap or good or anything.

But in some minds, EVERYTHING has to be about Gilbert.

I just said Valverde is a good stage racer. Dont know why the idea that Valverde is a good stage racer offends you so much.

But since you have opened up this debate, i am more than willing to shove this very easy rebute down your throat.

Valverde vs Gilbert in stage races. (overall performances, not treating the opening stage of the race like AGR, and getting the stage victory, then falling down the list consistently for the next 20 days)

Yes lets compare a Vuelta a Espana (with 2 podiums) 2 Dauphines, a Tour of Romandie, podiums in Paris Nice, Romandie, Pais Vasco, a 7th in the Tour, wins in races like Burgos, Murcia, Comunidad Valencia, to the ZLM Tour

Gilbert has dominated this season. As his biggest fan you should be happy about this.

but instead of celebrating the mans victories you try to create comparisons to other riders which Gilbert can only lose.

You clearly misinterpret my post on purpose.

Valverde will never win Paris-Nice for the record.

Valverde is not good enough to win the Tour or Giro either, he only has a shot at the Vuelta. Valverde's stage races don't impress me much So what if he won the Dauphiné twice: he was the only guy not using it as a prep race for the Tour(an argument you use quite a lot to diminish Gilbert's victories in one day races).

Murcia and Valencia are just as crappy as Ster ZLM Toer. There's not much prestige in winning any of these small stage races I'm afraid. They're all 3 used as preparation races for the bigger races. Valencia doesn't even exist any more and the only reason he won it in the first place was because Contador had a mechanical otherwise he'd have won it instead of Valverde. And Tour of Belgium(not Wallone as you seem to think) was ten times more impressive than his Eneco Tour showing(which is a crappy boring race with not much prestige to it). And of course it's about Gilbert, your post was about Gilbert

The thing I bolded in your post, was the part I was reacting to: Gilbert supposedly only focusing on one thing. That's bullsh*t. He wins more stage races than most of these so called "stage racers" like Andy Schleck, Frank Schleck, Brajkovic, etc(where did I ever compare Gilbert's stage race wins with Valverde by the way? I know perfectly well Valverde is a much better stage racer because of his allround skills). Does Gilbert use these stage races as a prep for his real goals? Yes, but he still goes for the win in it. All one week stage races are used as prep races by the way. With an exception of Paris-Nice perhaps...

Ps: Gilbert did a lot more than win a stage in that Tour by the way. Even made sure your boy Samu won his first Tour stage.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Valverde WAS using the Dauphiné as prep for the Tour in '08. Perhaps, like Evans a year later, he went too deep to win it and didn't have enough left for the Tour, but let's not pretend Valverde was the only person trying, or that he didn't try in the Tour.

Valverde's won stage races in February (Tour Méditerranéen, Comunitat Valenciana), March (Comunitat Valenciana, Murcía x3), April (País Vasco), May (Romandie, Catalunya), June (Dauphiné), August (Burgos), and September (Vuelta). Hardly a limited calendar (especially considering he races in Italy perhaps once in a blue moon).

 

[El Pistolero]

Valverde WAS using the Dauphiné as prep for the Tour in '08. Perhaps, like Evans a year later, he went too deep to win it and didn't have enough left for the Tour, but let's not pretend Valverde was the only person trying, or that he didn't try in the Tour.

Valverde's won stage races in February (Tour Méditerranéen, Comunitat Valenciana), March (Comunitat Valenciana, Murcía x3), April (País Vasco), May (Romandie, Catalunya), June (Dauphiné), August (Burgos), and September (Vuelta). Hardly a limited calendar (especially considering he races in Italy perhaps once in a blue moon).

Yep, 08 was indeed a prep, but 09 was pretty much like Rodriguez this year(with the exception that Valverde can actually time trial).

As impressive as his stage race wins may be, I don't see any of these wins as more prestigious than a Monument win or a real classic(Paris-Nice perhaps comes closest to a Monument).

But definitely not a race like Catalunya. As far as I'm concerned, de Ronde van België is more prestigious. Last few years, Catalunya has sucked. Wouldn't surprise me if the race would stop to exist in the nearby future. Definitely not worth it's World Tour status anymore. Like many other races though(Canadian races, Tour of Beijing, Eneco Tour, Poland, Catalunya, Down Under)

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Yep, 08 was indeed a prep, but 09 was pretty much like Rodriguez this year(with the exception that Valverde can actually time trial).

As impressive as his stage race wins may be, I don't see any of these wins as more prestigious than a Monument win or a real classic(Paris-Nice perhaps comes closest to a Monument).

But definitely not a race like Catalunya. As far as I'm concerned, de Ronde van België is more prestigious. Last few years, Catalunya has sucked. Wouldn't surprise me if the race would stop to exist in the nearby future.

Yes, because Valverde's sorely lacking in the Classics wins department

 

[El Pistolero]

Yes, because Valverde's sorely lacking in the Classics wins department

Not really, but he could win the Ronde van Vlaanderen and Milan-San Remo if he ever entered them. But he rather wins small stage races like Vuelta a Castilla y Leon I guess.

 

[The Hitch]

Valverde is not good enough to win Paris-Nice, so that point is moot already

Why not. Hes come 2nd. The guy that beat him is doing Tirreno next year. I mention PN because you mentioned MSR for Phil.

Phils best result in MSR is 3rd. Alejandros in PN is 2nd. So why can you mention San Remo for Phil but I cant mention Race to the Sun for Valverde?

Valverde's stage races don't impress me much

Funny. In your previous post you made a very big deal about how impressed you were by wins in the Tour of Belgium + a stage, Zlm tour + a stage, 9th in Tirreno + a stage, and 2nd in Eneco + a stage.

But now you say that winning the Vuelta, Dauphine, Romandie (lets leave it at the victories and not count all the races he has come 9th in) "doesnt impress you much".

Please explain these 2 amazing contrasts.

It wouldnt have anything to do with the fact that the first block belongs to Gilbert and the second to Valverde, would it

 

[Andre.J]

You're already finding excuses for when Valverde beats Gilbert next year at LBL?

Forget Valverde. Valverde without the drugs= Vinokurov without the drugs...not a very big threat at all.

 

[El Pistolero]

Why not. Hes come 2nd. The guy that beat him is doing Tirreno next year. I mention PN because you mentioned MSR for Phil.

Phils best result in MSR is 3rd. Alejandros in PN is 2nd. So why can you mention San Remo for Phil but I cant mention Race to the Sun for Valverde?




Funny. In your previous post you made a very big deal about how impressed you were by wins in the Tour of Belgium + a stage, Zlm tour + a stage, 9th in Tirreno + a stage, and 2nd in Eneco + a stage.

But now you say that winning the Vuelta, Dauphine, Romandie (lets leave it at the victories and not count all the races he has come 9th in) "doesnt impress you much".

Please explain these 2 amazing contrasts.

It wouldnt have anything to do with the fact that the first block belongs to Gilbert and the second to Valverde, would it

I'm not impressed by Phil's stage race wins don't worry I'm just saying he's better in it than most people who call them self stage racers(giving some names in the top 10 of the Tour as example).

I said I was more impressed by Phil at the Ronde van België than at Eneco Tour e.i --> I think more highly of the RvB than Eneco Tour while you seem to think completely otherwise making it painfully obvious that you have never watched both races(that and you using the wrong name for the RvB quite a few times already.). Eneco rivals with Tour Down Under in terms of prestige.

I named all his wins in stage races to make one thing clear: he sure wins a lot in stage races for focusing on only one thing

 

[hrotha]

Seriously, Pistolero, give it a rest. You're just addressing points you made up yourself now.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Not really, but he could win the Ronde van Vlaanderen and Milan-San Remo if he ever entered them. But he rather wins small stage races like Vuelta a Castilla y Leon I guess.

I think Flanders is beyond him. He's a bit too light to handle the stuff that's that steep AND cobbled. But yes, San Remo could feasibly be within his grasp if it was raced aggressively enough. He was in the lead group the last time he did it, back in '06, but didn't contest the sprint against the pure sprinters. He used to do Critérium International, but don't think he did that in recent years, tended to just go from Paris-Nice to the GP Big Mig and the other surrounding one-day races for País Vasco. Those are pretty important for Abarcá to be fair.

I don't think Valverde has won Castilla y León actually. It's about the only Spanish stage race that eludes him, I think.

 

[El Pistolero]

Seriously, Pistolero, give it a rest. You're just addressing points you made up yourself now.

My point was just that Phil doesn't focus on just one thing. He also wins stage races and they aren't any less prestigious than Murcia or Valencia. Just because it doesn't have mountains in it doesn't make it a lesser race.

He does stage races as well as any other normal stage racer in the peloton. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[El Pistolero]

I think Flanders is beyond him. He's a bit too light to handle the stuff that's that steep AND cobbled. But yes, San Remo could feasibly be within his grasp if it was raced aggressively enough. He was in the lead group the last time he did it, back in '06, but didn't contest the sprint against the pure sprinters. He used to do Critérium International, but don't think he did that in recent years, tended to just go from Paris-Nice to the GP Big Mig and the other surrounding one-day races for País Vasco. Those are pretty important for Abarcá to be fair.

I don't think Valverde has won Castilla y León actually. It's about the only Spanish stage race that eludes him, I think.

Valverde is pretty explosive on these short steep stuff, so I really think he would be a favorite at the Ronde van Vlaanderen. He doesn't have experience in races like that though, so that might work against him.

What is strange is that the Amstel Gold Race doesn't suit him. Still trying to figure that one out(he even made it to the final group at the Cauberg once, but Cunego won then I think).

As for Castilla y Leon, I know he hasn't won it, but sometimes I think he'd rather win that race than the Ronde van Vlaanderen or something.

Bolded: Pais Vasco eludes him as well, but I guess you don't see it as a Spanish stage race.

 

[The Hitch]

!

My point was just that Phil doesn't focus on just one thing. He also wins stage races

No you didnt just say that you went way past that , with various wierd arguments and responses

Eg, you say Phil starts his season in MSR.

I said Valverde starts his at Paris Nice.

You said Valverde cant win Paris Nice, (why on earth this stops Valverde from starting his season there, I dont know).

Then where is Phils MSR then?

But of course as always you dont respond, you just bring out the next wierd argument.

Just because it doesn't have mountains in it doesn't make it a lesser race

Same way this whole thing started. No one said Gilbert was a crap stage racer. But you decided to pretend that they did, and then wrote an essay as to what Gilbert won in stage races this year.

Why on earth are you bringing mountain vs non mountain stage races into the discussion now???

and they aren't any less prestigious than Murcia or Valencia.

No, but personally, and this is just me, I believe that they are less prestigious than the Dauphine, the Tour of Romandie, and maybe even the Vuelta a Espana

Forget Valverde. Valverde without the drugs= Vinokurov without the drugs...not a very big threat at all.

Take it to the clinic.

 

[Duartista]

Forget Valverde. Valverde without the drugs= Vinokurov without the drugs...not a very big threat at all.

Is this the same Vinokourov who won LBL after returning from a ban?

 

[El Pistolero]

No you didnt just say that you went way past that , with various wierd arguments and responses

Eg, you say Phil starts his season in MSR.

I said Valverde starts his at Paris Nice.

You said Valverde cant win Paris Nice.

Then where is Phils MSR??????

But of course as always you dont respond, you just bring out the next wierd argument.



Same way this whole thing started. No one said Gilbert was a crap stage racer. But you decided to pretend that they did, and then wrote an essay as to what Gilbert won in stage races this year.

Why on earth are you bringing mountain vs non mountain stage races into the discussion now???





No, but personally, and this is just me, I believe that they are less prestigious than the Dauphine, the Tour of Romandie, and maybe even the Vuelta a Espana





Take it to the clinic.

Valverde didn't win Romandie though. His won got taken away. If you want to count his win his ban should last till after Romandie next year. He should be glad his ban is so much shorter now.

Paris-Nice is a good enough preparation race for the hilly classics. Ronde van Vlaanderen and San Remo aren't the best prep out there for the Ardennes classics. Otherwise everyone would do it, but it's pretty much only the Belgian cyclists that prepare that way. Yes, I think it's easier to peak for the Ardennes classics if you just ride the usual stage race affair instead of the Ronde, G-W and San Remo. If Phil would just focus on the Ardennes classics and ride Pais Vasco like everyone else I believe he would be even stronger at these races. But I'm glad he isn't like that, a guy who only focuses on one thing

So you're right to say their peaks start at the same time, but it's still very much different. Phil has to face a Super Cancellara at the Ronde. Valverde faces a good Contador at races like Paris-Nice, but Contador only hits his freak peak at the Tour(or Giro this year). Canc hits his freak peak at the Ronde(Cancellara in the cobbled classics this year was very comparable to Contador in the Giro ).

 

[El Pistolero]

Is this the same Vinokourov who won LBL after returning from a ban?

And got second at the Clasica

In fact, it was one of his best years ever!

 

[The Hitch]

Valverde didn't win Romandie though. His won got taken away. If you want to count his win his ban should last till after Romandie next year. He should be glad his ban is so much shorter now.

.

We are debating their abilities not their UCI points.

Valverde faced and beat everyone in the 2010 Romandie. Whether you believe he should or should not have been there is irrelevant.


Besides, Phils generation has not had a Operation Puerto, to take away wins 4 years down the line, if you want to make the comparison fair.

Paris-Nice is a good enough preparation race for the hilly classics. Ronde van Vlaanderen and San Remo aren't the best prep out there for the Ardennes classics. Otherwise everyone would do it, but it's pretty much only the Belgian cyclists that prepare that way. Yes, I think it's easier to peak for the Ardennes classics if you just ride the usual stage race affair instead of the Ronde, G-W and San Remo. If Phil would just focus on the Ardennes classics and ride Pais Vasco like everyone else I believe he would be even stronger at these races. But I'm glad he isn't like that, a guy who only focuses on one thing

So you're right to say their peaks start at the same time, but it's still very much different. Phil has to face a Super Cancellara at the Ronde. Valverde faces a good Contador at races like that, but Contador only hits his freak peak at the Tour(or Giro this year). Canc hits his freak peak at the Ronde

Ill ask for a 3rd time.

Where is Phils MSR.

I never asked for you to speculate as to what is good preperation or not. Or who Phil has to face at Ronde or any of these other digressions.

You said Phil starts at MSR.
I sadi Piti starts at PN.
You said PN doesnt count for Valverde because he "cannot win it".

So, tell me, where is Phils MSR?

 

[El Pistolero]

We are debating their abilities not their UCI points.

Valverde faced and beat everyone in the 2010 Romandie. Whether you believe he should or should not have been there is irrelevant.


Besides, Phils generation has not had a Operation Puerto, to take away wins 4 years down the line, if you want to make the comparison fair.



Ill ask for a 3rd time.

Where is Phils MSR.

I never asked for you to speculate as to what is good preperation or not. Or who Phil has to face at Ronde or any of these other digressions.

You said Phil starts at MSR.
I sadi Piti starts at PN.
You said PN doesnt count for Valverde because he "cannot win it".

So, tell me, where is Phils MSR?

Never said it didn't count, just said the great stage racer Valverde can't win Paris-Nice to taunt you

But I do genuinely believe it's harder to ride all the Monuments in good form(except Roubaix and this one ofc)than some hilly stage races in terms of preparing for the Ardennes classics. Kudos for Leukemans for riding them all though.

 

[Waterloo Sunrise]

Forget Valverde. Valverde without the drugs= Vinokurov without the drugs...not a very big threat at all.

Trying to remember who won LBL in 2010...anyone help me out?

Before the inevitable comeback - if he was on drugs then, he's always been on drugs and you have no way of knowing what he's like without them. So the statement is either wrong, or bizzare guesswork.

 

[El Pistolero]

Trying to remember who won LBL in 2010...anyone help me out?

Davide Rebellin or Cavendish I think.

 

[Zoncolan]

IMO, Katusha, Lampre, and Euskaltel should try and blow this apart on the longer climbs.
All of them have pretty strong lineups. I don't know what kind of form Purito, Di Luca, Scarponi, Cunego, Sanchez, or Anton are on, but the only way to beat Gilbert here is to put him under pressure on the Valcava. If he gets over the Sormano with the favorites, he will be almost impossible to beat.
Here's hoping for some early action.

 

[El Pistolero]

IMO, Katusha, Lampre, and Euskaltel should try and blow this apart on the longer climbs.
All of them have pretty strong lineups. I don't know what kind of form Purito, Di Luca, Scarponi, Cunego, Sanchez, or Anton are on, but the only way to beat Gilbert here is to put him under pressure on the Valcava. If he gets over the Sormano with the favorites, he will be almost impossible to beat.
Here's hoping for some early action.

They all seem in bad shape. I think it will be guys like Mollema and Uran that will be competitive. Perhaps a resurgence of Cunego is possible.

 

[jens_attacks]

IMO, Katusha, Lampre, and Euskaltel should try and blow this apart on the longer climbs.
All of them have pretty strong lineups. I don't know what kind of form Purito, Di Luca, Scarponi, Cunego, Sanchez, or Anton are on, but the only way to beat Gilbert here is to put him under pressure on the Valcava. If he gets over the Sormano with the favorites, he will be almost impossible to beat.
Here's hoping for some early action.

i've followed everyone closely in the autumn semiclassics.their lack of form is incredible.

 

[Kvinto]

Every year the Worlds is out Europe you have a ruined Lombardia...

I don't think it may do any harm to Lombardia. The RR of Limburg's Worlds should be held on September 23 and Lombardia - on September 29 which gives quite enough time to recover even if the Worlds would be outside of Europe.

But no matter where the Worlds would be held this decision will definitely do wrong to the other Italian races. Actually it used to be one of my favourite weeks of cycling and Lombardia used to crown this week, but since 2012 we'll have:

29.09.2012 Il Lombardia ITA

29.09.2012 Memorial Marco Pantani ITA 1.1
04.10.2012 Coppa Sabatini ITA 1.1
06.10.2012 Giro dell'Emilia ITA 1.HC
07.10.2012 Gran Premio Bruno Beghelli ITA 1.1
11.10.2012 Giro del Piemonte ITA 1.HC

If something will be ruined it's this 5 races especially Piemonte and Emilia which used to gather quite strong field. Thank you UCI

 

[Arnout]

Stop bickering about Gilbert. There's something way more important going on.

UCI is destroying the legend of Lombardia. It was the last hurray of the season, the pinnacle of the autumn, a race for the tough guys that just didn't wanna give in to holidays. It's been on the calendar since 1905, always been held in October or even November.

Now, because the UCI is filling its pants with Chinese mon... sorry, because the UCI is looking to globalize cycling in a constructive manner, it is being moved forward to September, the UCI decides.

I refuse. Let's refuse, all of us. I hope the RCS will join us. This is no longer talk about which teams make the ****ty internal ranking or not, this is destroying a legendary cycling monument by taking away one of its core values: being the last race of the season.

Actually I'm gonna send exactly this text to the UCI and open a new topic here. It's my favourite race, I have extremely fond memories of it and I loathe to see the UCI treating it as a race that has to move a way so the ****ing Tour of Beijng can not work again, but this time on an important date.