190mm Stem

[LugHugger]

That's pretty much my point (and this photo helps it because he's riding with his arms bent): I'm sure Hesjedal could ride with the exact same position but with much higher bars; it's just that his elbows would obviously be bent more, like De Vlaeminck's are. Eh, maybe he couldn't (what do I know? ), but I bet he could.

In other words, I'd bet he, and many other riders, don't need their bars so low.

Maybe other rides can't ride with their arms bent for very long, for what ever reason (too much weight on their hands, probably), so they like their bars low to allow them to ride aero with their arms straight.

However, with bars so low, he obviously loses the option of riding more upright during 'relaxing' moments in races.



Ha, it's just a bit 'o fun, and it sure beats working, ha

Magnus Backstedt was commenting earlier this season, I forget which race, about a rider in a lone break with his hands in the drops. Maggie was saying that while he was at Garmin ie about 4 years ago they 'proved' in the wind tunnel that riding with palms flat on the hoods was more aero than riding in the drops.

So, I wonder whether the 'classic' RDV pose is not technically perfect - even though it is held in high esteem by many - the aerodynamic science doesn't back it up and hence the longer lower riding positions?

 

[Boeing]

It has come to this: Pros using ridiculous stems when they are shoe-horned onto frames made for fat, middle aged recreational riders.

one rider stem and it's the industries fault. blah blah blah you forgot to say rapha. I'm sure this frame geometry would provide for an awesome ride with another 70mm to the top tube. imagine the angles too. so much stiffer too.

 

[Captain Serious]

That pretty much agrees with my thinking, except for the "too much weight on their hands, probably" bit. The amount of weight on your hands depends on how hard you're riding. At what point in your power output range from
-----just riding along>>>>>tempo>>>>>forcing
do you choose to set the neutral balance (sprinting left off the chart since weight distribution changes when you stand up)?
.

I recently wrote some of the following on Bike Forums (the McDonald's of riding forums: massive turnover, but 90% crap. HA), so I'm effectively repeating some of my BS, but:

I like to have a slight upward saddle tilt (that's another old-school thing that's all but disappeared) and just enough setback to feel balanced, with not too much weight on my hands. I'm "around" 40, so I'm not a young man any more, and I have some minor back and neck problems (mostly neck). Therefore, I can't ride too low for too long.

Yep, as you suggest, having the bars isn't quite as bad when riding flat-out , because more weight is effectively being taken off the hands by the pounding the pedals. I find that riding easy to moderate with very low bars a big drag on my neck, with much more weight on my hands.

After riding with a pseudo-modern position for a few years (before my neck started giving me grief), it suddenly dawned on me that one reason I kept wanting to tilt my saddle further up was coz I had too little setback/too much weight forward (I'm 182cm, and was riding 57s and 58s with zero setback posts with 120 or 130mm stems - long legs and short-ish upper body).

So, these days, I try to go for a more "De Vlaeminck" position, and if I have to get aero, I try to do it like him, with bent arms and less weight on my hands. Sure, as someone else said somewhere, riding like this probably increases lower back and hip flexion (because the pelvis is more upright while I bend over), but it's preferable for me at the moment. Also, I don't recall pros having lots of back problems compared to current day, but I could be wrong.

Having said all that, one of my best bikes is set-up kinda low (because I cut the steerer too low a long time ago, and don't have the cash to buy a decent replacement fork at the moment), but it's a shorter position, so if I'm having neck issues, I can sit up a bit and hold the tops more on the way home from a race or smash-fest.

I admit I don't have all the answers at all (ha, obviously); I only came on here to show the young'n's that old Rog, et al, could ride super-low with high bars.

By the way, what do we think of this on-the-bike balance test?: ride in your aero position, take your hands off the bars and put them behind your back, then see how long you can ride like that, if at all. I like it, because I can do it better than all my cronies. Ha.

Another point on long stems: At one stage, I was riding 140mm stems on a 56 and 56.5, and 130mm stems on my 57s and 58s, and riding off the saddle often felt strange, because more weight is way over the front of the bike. I realize it's only 2 or 3cm difference (in stem length), but I reckon it's noticeable. Yeah yeah, I suppose I should've still been able to keep my weight back, but I didn't

 

[Captain Serious]

Magnus Backstedt was commenting earlier this season, I forget which race, about a rider in a lone break with his hands in the drops. Maggie was saying that while he was at Garmin ie about 4 years ago they 'proved' in the wind tunnel that riding with palms flat on the hoods was more aero than riding in the drops.

So, I wonder whether the 'classic' RDV pose is not technically perfect - even though it is held in high esteem by many - the aerodynamic science doesn't back it up and hence the longer lower riding positions?

I'm not sure I understand the "palms flat" thing.

It's my understanding that riding on the hoods or tops with forearms roughly parallel to the road more aero than straight arms pointing toward the front wheel (not straight out, like the Superman position). Isn't this what De Vlaeminck is doing in the photo?

 

[42x16ss]

one rider stem and it's the industries fault. blah blah blah you forgot to say rapha. I'm sure this frame geometry would provide for an awesome ride with another 70mm to the top tube. imagine the angles too. so much stiffer too.

But it's not. There's examples of what the Garmin guys need to do to get their bikes to fit earlier in the thread and it's crazy. Most of the Blanco guys are the same with their TCR's, Gesink in particular.

It's not like this is a one off, although it is the most extreme example I've seen.

 

[ustabe]

Magnus Backstedt was commenting earlier this season, I forget which race, about a rider in a lone break with his hands in the drops. Maggie was saying that while he was at Garmin ie about 4 years ago they 'proved' in the wind tunnel that riding with palms flat on the hoods was more aero than riding in the drops.

Well, that explains it, for me, anyway. About four years ago the "clown bike" syndrome got into gear, and here is one rationale for it. This is not about riding with the hips a few discrete centimeters higher than the hands, it's about full ***-over-teakettle.

Not that I agree with it, or that I have to agree with it. I'm just a middle-aged duffer who's trying to stay reasonably competitive with the folks I ride with on Saturday. Admittedly, there's a little pride and vanity involved, but I'm not going to take it seriously.

But maybe just for grins I'll set up a tiny (for me) frame with a 14 cm 73 degree stem, slammed, and see if it lets me hang out in front just a little longer.

 

[Captain Serious]

.... trying to stay reasonably competitive with the folks I ride with on Saturday. Admittedly, there's a little pride and vanity involved, but I'm not going to take it seriously.
r.

I've got a theory that a lot of it comes down to the coffee shop issue.
I find that because I never hang out at coffee shops before or after rides, no one ever sees my bikes without me on them, so it's not a problem.

 

[coinneach]

Look at Hesjedal below:

His position isn't that different to Roger's. Yes Hesjedal is taller and De Vlaeminck's posture is pretty much perfect but there isn't that much of a difference. What's changed?

I don't mean to be beating a dead horse but this thread has really stirred my curiousity

Quality thread this!

Main difference between RdV & RH is at the other end of the bike....one is sitting with his cheeks on his saddle,
the other has his prostate on the saddle nose....
I know which of the 2 I prefer, and thats not to do with getting to the cafe first!

 

[winkybiker]

I've got a theory that a lot of it comes down to the coffee shop issue.
I find that because I never hang out at coffee shops before or after rides, no bikes without me on them, so it's not a problem.

I'd still judge you. I totally would.

 

[ustabe]

I'd still judge you. I totally would.

I was going to judge the Captain, but I didn't want to, and I'm totally grateful to you for stepping up. Smileyface.

 

[Granville57]

This is a topic that always cracks me up, because I'm pretty sure that this guy figured out a good aero position over 100 years ago.

Adjustable stem for the win.

 

[winkybiker]

I have been following this thread with interest, and throwing the occasional rock. But it has me thinking about my own position.

I run my bars low, certainly lower than average for my years (almost 52). Full drop bars, too. None of those short, shallow jobbies. I wonder am I doing it for the coffee shop approval. Yes, a little bit at least.

But it is honestly where they feel best. When pushing hard, riding down in the drops just feels right. My arms, hands and upper body relax. I feel powerful and balanced. I can ride there all day. I'm not forward on the saddle (which I run with full set-back). I don't run with heart-rate/powermeter/computer at all so I have no numbers, just how it feels.

Admittedly, when getting back on the nice bike after a winters' commuting on the tourer, the bars feel low and far away but this feeling fades in a few km.

You can see the set-up in this shot.


DSC_4733-Edit by winkyintheuk, on Flickr

 

[gregod]

...

 

[42x16ss]

Couldn't have said it better Gregod

That's a great old school setup you are running there, love the round bars and hood position. You must be quite flexible for your age Winky!

 

[King Boonen]

I have been following this thread with interest, and throwing the occasional rock. But it has me thinking about my own position.

I run my bars low, certainly lower than average for my years (almost 52). Full drop bars, too. None of those short, shallow jobbies. I wonder am I doing it for the coffee shop approval. Yes, a little bit at least.

But it is honestly where they feel best. When pushing hard, riding down in the drops just feels right. My arms, hands and upper body relax. I feel powerful and balanced. I can ride there all day. I'm not forward on the saddle (which I run with full set-back). I don't run with heart-rate/powermeter/computer at all so I have no numbers, just how it feels.

Admittedly, when getting back on the nice bike after a winters' commuting on the tourer, the bars feel low and far away but this feeling fades in a few km.

You can see the set-up in this shot.


DSC_4733-Edit by winkyintheuk, on Flickr

I'm unsure if your position is sensible. I think you should post me your bike for at least 2 years testing...

 

[Mikestone241]

It has come to this: Pros using ridiculous stems when they are shoe-horned onto frames made for fat, middle aged recreational riders.

That is horrible! Why can't these pros just get bikes that fit!!

 

[Mikestone241]

I'm unsure if your position is sensible. I think you should post me your bike for at least 2 years testing...

I'd say if its working for you leave it. However you might not know what you are missing in comfort by just moving up your position a little. I used to ride a really aggressive position with out too much trouble, and slowly through a couple new bikes I got a little more upright and now Im so much more comfortable.

 

[ElChingon]

So what is the worse shortest stem? I know I've seen some really short ones out on rides and just couldn't get past that look and then thinking about the handling or lack there of on those shorty stems.