1990s: what percentage were NOT on EPO

[TheArbiter]

It would be interesting to know what percentage of Tour of riders were NOT on EPO before there was a test for it. Of the top contenders I think everyone is agreed it would have been 0% who were not using it. But what of the peloton as a whole? 5%? 10%? Maybe that's too harsh and it was 50% not doing it? What do you reckon?

 

[Dr. Maserati]

It would be interesting to know what percentage of Tour of riders were NOT on EPO before there was a test for it. Of the top contenders I think everyone is agreed it would have been 0% who were not using it. But what of the peloton as a whole? 5%? 10%? Maybe that's too harsh and it was 50% not doing it? What do you reckon?

Who knows!!

I am not trying to spoil the question you ask - as it would be interesting to know, but it breeds speculation with some suggesting everybody. The answer is no-one knows for sure.

I would rather look at proven facts to try and gauge the use.
An example- of the 9 riders on Festina Bassons was not on the program. Does that suggest that 11% were clean?

A Swiss anti-doping expert said some years ago that 80% of the samples showed signs of PED use. This was generally reported as 80% of the peloton using PED's. But we know that the podium places amount for a large number of tests - so this would be a) often the same riders b) just the highest placed riders - so unfortunately it is not a representative analysis.

Anne Gripper said recently that the vast majority of the 800 riders on the passport had very normal values.

So the answer is ..... no-one know.

 

[BroDeal]

From 1995 through 2000, I guess 5% were not using it. It was only the oddballs like Bassons who did not partake. Even from 2001 onward the testers were noticing that many urine samples were unbelievably clean, so masking substances were being used. Jesus Manzano said something about Fuentes providing a powder to drop into urine samples, and that would have been for the years prior to 2003.

I seriously doubt there was any signficant victory from about 1992 or 3 to 2000 that was won without EPO.

 

[BigBoat]

Of Tour de France starters not using EPO in 1999? Maybe 2 riders out of 180. Finishers 0. Percentage of TDF pack not on EPO in 1999: 1%.

 

[Oldman]

Of Tour de France starters not using EPO in 1999? Maybe 2 riders out of 180. Finishers 0. Percentage of TDF pack not on EPO in 1999: 1%.

Wasn't that pretty pricey stuff back then? I'd guess a higher percentage just because of budget constraints but then every rider that could would have begged, borrowed or stolen to get it.

 

[Digger]

Eva Maria has a cool stat about Alpe d'Huez in, I think it was, the 1997 Tour. Just in relation to the times they were climbing it in. It's shocking stuff. To the OP, I'd say you're talking a handful of riders, especially in that time period. Of course this makes what Bassons did all the more remarkable.

 

[CentralCaliBike]

Of Tour de France starters not using EPO in 1999? Maybe 2 riders out of 180. Finishers 0. Percentage of TDF pack not on EPO in 1999: 1%.

I find it hard to believe that you have any credible evidence to back up such an emphatic claim - since you say two were clean in 1999, perhaps you can enlighten us on which two?

 

[runninboy]

Wasn't that pretty pricey stuff back then? I'd guess a higher percentage just because of budget constraints but then every rider that could would have begged, borrowed or stolen to get it.

I agree. In its legitimate use in the last decade, I see it locked in a special refrigerated safe that takes two specials codes to dispense. based on the co pay, one dose runs into the thousands even today.
Simeoni in an interview said something along the lines of any sort of program is beyond the means of anyone but the team leaders as his annual salary was less than what the drugs would cost.
I tend to agree based on what i have experienced.
Maybe USPS budgeted for everyone but i bet the other teams probably left it up to the individual riders. If you had the salary and were a contender you got on the program. I would say purely from an economic standpoint maybe 25-50 percent were clean. Maybe some of those got a little juice during the tour, If you were Jan you would be willing to pay to have your escorts at the highest level. etc but beyond the GC contenders & their escorts use wasprobably not as great as we believe

 

[Eva Maria]

Eva Maria has a cool stat about Alpe d'Huez in, I think it was, the 1997 Tour. Just in relation to the times they were climbing it in. It's shocking stuff. To the OP, I'd say you're talking a handful of riders, especially in that time period. Of course this makes what Bassons did all the more remarkable.

For years the standard up Alp d'hues was 45 minutes. This was Coppi's time and it stood as a record for decades. Suddenly in the 90's times dropped. In 1997 60 riders beat 45 minutes.

I have three friends who rode the Tour in the 90's. The all eventually used EPO, but they also did at least one time clean. One of them dropped out.

I would say the number for years like 94-97 would be 60%+ 1998 and 99 40%.

 

[Frosty]

For years the standard up Alp d'hues was 45 minutes. This was Coppi's time and it stood as a record for decades. Suddenly in the 90's times dropped. In 1997 60 riders beat 45 minutes.

Its only a wiki page but the link below suggests that times did drop between Coppi and the 90s. The fastest riders in both 1986 and 1989 are down as doing the climb in 41.50. The effects of the 90s are plain to see though

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpe_d'Huez

(am not sure why Hinault and Lemond took so much longer than Herrera though, how far ahead of him were they at the bottom?)

 

[BroDeal]

I would say the number for years like 94-97 would be 60%+ 1998 and 99 40%.

Heh, looks like I am way pessimistic. I'll have to change my thoughts.

 

[TheArbiter]

It's an eye opener for those who think only two or three guys were using the stuff and is why they won everything. During that period it was more a case of using it to stay competitive.

 

[auscyclefan94]

Of Tour de France starters not using EPO in 1999? Maybe 2 riders out of 180. Finishers 0. Percentage of TDF pack not on EPO in 1999: 1%.

Where would you get such a stat? I don't know how you would know that unless you actually worked in the french labs during the 90's

 

[Dr. Maserati]

It's an eye opener for those who think only two or three guys were using the stuff and is why they won everything. During that period it was more a case of using it to stay competitive.

You mean Phil & Paul are wrong when they mention just a few rotten apples?

 

[auscyclefan94]

When did riders become cleaner or is the state of the sport right now as bad as it use to be due to more advanced doping techniques?

 

[wpsracing78]

So what are we talking now?
Stupid questions becuase none of us know at all...

2009 - 40% clean? 70% clean? 2% clean? You would hope either of the first two, but it could be better or worse. all just speculation.

 

[CentralCaliBike]

For years the standard up Alp d'hues was 45 minutes. This was Coppi's time and it stood as a record for decades. Suddenly in the 90's times dropped. In 1997 60 riders beat 45 minutes.

I have three friends who rode the Tour in the 90's. The all eventually used EPO, but they also did at least one time clean. One of them dropped out.

I would say the number for years like 94-97 would be 60%+ 1998 and 99 40%.

Lighter/newer bikes than what Coppi had (I nearly forgot about the gearing differences as well - although perhaps not as important as the weight)

Better training and science (legal type) with a better understanding of nutrition physiology than Coppi's time

What was his secret to be under 45 minutes?

 

[broken chain]

I can't remember the name of the individual who was interviewed,but the basis of his statement was that it was disheartening to do well in some races then come to the TDF and get dropped the first five minutes of a major climb.He stated that the speeds the top riders were achieving was incredible.His point was that something was rotten in Denmark

 

[Digger]

Heh, looks like I am way pessimistic. I'll have to change my thoughts.

Yeah sounds like I've been also...

 

[Digger]

I can't remember the name of the individual who was interviewed,but the basis of his statement was that it was disheartening to do well in some races then come to the TDF and get dropped the first five minutes of a major climb.He stated that the speeds the top riders were achieving was incredible.His point was that something was rotten in Denmark

Chris Boardman...

 

[Krebs cycle]

I can't remember the name of the individual who was interviewed,but the basis of his statement was that it was disheartening to do well in some races then come to the TDF and get dropped the first five minutes of a major climb.He stated that the speeds the top riders were achieving was incredible.His point was that something was rotten in Denmark

A friend of mine worked in Denmark for several years (ie: as a scientific researcher within the elite sports framework) and in those circles everyone seemed to 'know' that Rasmussen was dirty as hell, like it was the worst kept secret in Danish cycling or something.

Any well connected Danes here might be able to correct me on that however, since its only second hand info.

 

[Eva Maria]

Lighter/newer bikes than what Coppi had (I nearly forgot about the gearing differences as well - although perhaps not as important as the weight)

Better training and science (legal type) with a better understanding of nutrition physiology than Coppi's time

What was his secret to be under 45 minutes?

Does that explain what in 1991 four riders broke 45 minutes and a few years later 60 riders did?

 

[keen_but_slow]

1991 was the year they came over the Ornon, which is a nothingish climb, and all arrived together. So you'd expect a flurry of good times. Bugno and Indurain left some very good riders behind.

Last year Spartacus smashed the race apart on the Croix de Fer; Sastre goes up in 39'30"!

Schleck sr had been in the break when he went up in 40 something.

Get me a cervelo!

or b .....

 

[CentralCaliBike]

Does that explain what in 1991 four riders broke 45 minutes and a few years later 60 riders did?

What were the conditions in 1991 - what were they in 1997 (the year 60 riders were claimed to have broken the 45 minute mark) - how hard did the peloton go out in 1991 vs how hard in 1997?

According to what I read the Alpe d'Huez was not timed until 1994 so the prior times are based on what?

Also, what was the distance of the climb that was considered for the time? I understand that the recorded times are from several different markers.

Lastly, where did you get the 60 riders under 45 minutes 1997 - the only stat I found was that 5 riders were sub 40 minutes.

 

[poupou]

When looking at old videos we can easily seen speed were clearly slower than today. So difficult to give too much credit on old timing.