2011 Giro di Lombardia

[roundabout]

Nibali outclimbed Rodriguez on just about every MTF in the Giro except for Sestriere.

Probably down to form, but life is not as simple as 'At >8%, Purito > Squalo'

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

Rodriguez was not fit in the Giro. He was on anti-biotics and only reached his best form in the last mountain stages (where he was clearly better). Or actually he reached his best form after the Giro, in the Dauphine.
Like I said, because he was struggling in the Giro with illness.

So, you kind of made an unvalid point. Nibali is never a better climber than a good Rodriguez. Not a worn-out one (Vuelta 10) or an unfit/sick one (Giro 11)

Btw with the Lombardy finish in Lecco it's more likely it will be harder, in the terms of climbing near the finish, it will be a longer climb they'll do. Not the short punchy ones Gilbert is best at.
At least, that is my guess.

 

[roundabout]

That's nice, but basically you restated what I wrote with using more words.

We will see in the Vuelta I guess.

 

[Michielveedeebee]

At >8%, Purito > Squalo.

At >20%, Purito, Contador > everybody.

fixed it for you

 

[Libertine Seguros]

That's nice, but basically you restated what I wrote with using more words.

We will see in the Vuelta I guess.

We already did - Peña Cabarga.

And though Nibbles is a better rider than he was back then, he was 10th to Montelupone in 2009, the Cima Joaquím Rodríguez.

When it's really, and I mean really steep, Rodríguez > everyone over a short distance, losing out to Contador as they go further (see Angliru 2008, when he was working for Valverde but stayed with Contador longer).

 

[theyoungest]

We already did - Peña Cabarga.

And though Nibbles is a better rider than he was back then, he was 10th to Montelupone in 2009, the Cima Joaquím Rodríguez.

When it's really, and I mean really steep, Rodríguez > everyone over a short distance, losing out to Contador as they go further (see Angliru 2008, when he was working for Valverde but stayed with Contador longer).

Antón isn't bad at that stuff either. He beat Rodriguez at his own game last year (Valdepenas de Jaen, I think it was?)

 

[l.Harm]

Purito is the best in short and especially heavy climbs. In >20 km climbs with 7% average he will be dropped.

 

[The Hitch]

Antón isn't bad at that stuff either. He beat Rodriguez at his own game last year (Valdepenas de Jaen, I think it was?)

And he paced Contador half way up the Muur. Ended up 4th was it and then 6th this year.

I think Purito would have won Jaen though had he not had a hectic schedule including the Tour leading up to it whereas Anton had based his season around la Vuelta.

 

[Havetts]

Bala its a nice discussion cant you move the posts to a new thread?

 

[Bala Verde]

Bala its a nice discussion cant you move the posts to a new thread?

fixed that.

 

[Havetts]

Pretty awesome ! Thanks .

 

[icefire]

Purito is the best in short and especially heavy climbs. In >20 km climbs with 7% average he will be dropped.

Purito was dropped last year in the Tourmalet stage by Contador and Schleck. He dropped the rest of the field. I'm not sure if that supports your argument

In any case, if Purito is to win a race not ending uphill he must be alone. He might be second sprinting against his own shadow.

 

[Lupetto]

http://www.gazzetta.it/Ciclismo/27-07-2011/giro-lombardia-arrivo-lecco-802208026824.shtml

Here's a longer article, but they say nothing about the course it self. I'm guessing it's to do with the fact they sacked Zomegnan and the new bosses want to make some chances. Which leads me to believe it will be easier, because Zomegnan liked to make things harder.

They're going to finish on a racing track or something, though someone who speaks Italian should come and translate it.

Lecco has nothing to do with Zomegnan. Como's contract ran out and Lecco paid big money for two editions and a Giro stage in 2012 (Likely a mountain time trial to Piani Resinelli). Same thing why Flanders route 2012 will change heavely.

Muro di Sormano would have been an option for a finish in Como. It is a shortcut (painful one ) to last years Colma di Sormano. With a finish in Lecco it would stand in the middle of the race.

Lecco could bring Valico di Valcava or Esino Lario back. Culmine di San Pietro or Conca di Crezzo (not sure, could be a dirt road) could be included. Even in Lecco there is a possibility for a final short round with some ramps of 10-16%. You can easily put a climb of 400 meters altitude difference on the last 15k. So there a lot of things to make this a hard race, if they want to.

 

[l.Harm]

Purito was dropped last year in the Tourmalet stage by Contador and Schleck. He dropped the rest of the field. I'm not sure if that supports your argument

In any case, if Purito is to win a race not ending uphill he must be alone. He might be second sprinting against his own shadow.

Tour de France 2010

•Km 154.5 - Col de la Ramaz - 14.3 km climb to 6.8 % - Category 1
•Km 189.0 - MORZINE-AVORIAZ - 13.6 km climb to 6.1 % - Category 1

Rodriguez at 1'14, while all other contenders were at max 10 seconds.

•Km 46.0 - Col de la Colombière - 16.5 km climb to 6.7 % - Category 1
•Km 97.0 - Col des Saisies - 14.4 km climb to 5.1 % - Category 1
•Km 172.5 - Col de la Madeleine - 25.5 km climb to 6.2 % - Category H

Rodriguez 2'07. Contador, Schleck and Samu Sanchez were faster if you watch the contenders for GC.

•Km 208.5 - Côte de la Croix-Neuve (Montée Laurent Jalabert) - 3.1 km climb to 10.1 % - Category 2

This is his specialty and Purito wins.

•Km 155.5 - Port de Pailhères - 15.5 km climb to 7.9 % - Category H
•Km 183.0 - Ax-3-Domaines - 7.8 km climb to 8.2 % - Category 1

Not many differences between the riders for GC.

•Km 166.0 - Port de Balès - 19.3 km climb to 6.1 % - Category H

This is his weak point imo. Rodriguez 4'08. Menchov, Contador and Samu 2'50, A. Schleck 3'29.

•Km 11.0 - Col de Peyresourde - 11.0 km climb to 7.4 % - Category 1
•Km 42.5 - Col d'Aspin - 12.3 km climb to 6.3 % - Category 1
•Km 72.0 - Col du Tourmalet (Souvenir Jacques Goddet) - 17.1 km climb to 7.3 % - Category H
•Km 138.0 - Col d'Aubisque - 29.2 km climb to 4.2 % - Category H

not really differences

•Km 56.5 - Col de Marie-Blanque - 9.3 km climb to 7.6 % - Category 1
•Km 117.5 - Col du Soulor (D 126-D 918) - 11.9 km climb to 7.8 % - Category 1
•Km 174.0 - COL DU TOURMALET (Souvenir Henri Desgrange) - 18.6 km climb to 7.5 % - Category H

Like you said, only Contador and Schleck dropped him.

I don't say this last stage is an exception, but Purito's 'problem' is that on this kind of climbs he doesn't show constant performances over three weeks (ok in Tour 1,5 week or 1 week).

 

[scullster46]

Purito was dropped last year in the Tourmalet stage by Contador and Schleck. He dropped the rest of the field. I'm not sure if that supports your argument

In any case, if Purito is to win a race not ending uphill he must be alone. He might be second sprinting against his own shadow.

come on now, he isn't THAT bad of a sprinter. obviously vs. Gilbert he'll get whooped, but that goes for quite a few people. based on this years current form, the only climbers that I can see beating him in a sprint 9 times out of 10 are Cadel and Samu.

 

[El Pistolero]

come on now, he isn't THAT bad of a sprinter. obviously vs. Gilbert he'll get whooped, but that goes for quite a few people. based on this years current form, the only climbers that I can see beating him in a sprint 9 times out of 10 are Cadel and Samu.

Lol, what?

 

[craig1985]

I see anything wrong in changing your course or finish towns, I mean as long as you can keep on finding new climbs that can make the race harder/more selective/more exciting, why not? I mean Paris-Roubaix doesn't even start in Paris anymore, well before anybody in the peloton was even born, and they are always finding new cobble sectors or even leaving well known parts out.

 

[nvpacchi]

come on now, he isn't THAT bad of a sprinter. obviously vs. Gilbert he'll get whooped, but that goes for quite a few people. based on this years current form, the only climbers that I can see beating him in a sprint 9 times out of 10 are Cadel and Samu.

2011 País Vasco Stage 1.

1. RODRIGUEZ OLIVER Joaquin
2. SANCHEZ GONZALEZ Samuel

Didn't know it was possible to prove and disprove a claim in the same post

 

[Je ne sais quoi]

Dont want to stretch the thread too far from its original purpose, but one way to look at it is that Nibali easily moved to and away from Contador on the Giro descents. And on the Tour descents, the best descender was that very same Alberto Contador.

I respectfully disagree with this perspective. I enjoyed Nibali's descending at the Giro, but felt that it was ineffectual tactically. Only once might it have made sense, and that was when he caught up after he had been dropped - but it took so much energy, he was quickly dropped again on the next ascent. The time he "attacked" out front was fun, but literally laughable tactically. If you could have drawn a cartoon bubble over the group when he took off, it looked like they were saying, WTF? He ended up isolated on the flat and soon decided to soft pedal until the group caught up. All this was not his fault, it was just that there were no opportunities for him to make gains with that skill.

Contador, on the other hand, appeared to be a way better descender than many people gave him credit for. But rare are the moments when it makes sense for him tactically, considering the risk/reward of his position in a series. Certainly he had no incentive to follow Nibali at the Giro - actually it made no sense for anyone to do so.
At the Tour however, as soon as it made sense tactically he showed himself to be a very capable descender in proportion to his other skills.

Lombardia with Gilbert, Sanchez, and Contador ... and Nibali and the others ... wow!

 

[scullster46]

2011 País Vasco Stage 1.

1. RODRIGUEZ OLIVER Joaquin
2. SANCHEZ GONZALEZ Samuel

Didn't know it was possible to prove and disprove a claim in the same post

That's the one time out of 10

Lol, what?

What's so wrong about my statement? Obviously there are puncheurs who could beat him, but who else can outsprint him that also goes for a high placing in a GT? Di Luca isn't back on old form yet, so I'd discount him, plus they are on the same team anyways. Maybe Roche, but he isn't on the climbing level of Purito.

edit:Valverde as well, but he won't be back till next year

 

[El Pistolero]

That's the one time out of 10



What's so wrong about my statement? Obviously there are puncheurs who could beat him, but who else can outsprint him that also goes for a high placing in a GT? Di Luca isn't back on old form yet, so I'd discount him, plus they are on the same team anyways. Maybe Roche, but he isn't on the climbing level of Purito.

edit:Valverde as well, but he won't be back till next year

No, I thought you were talking about Gilbert. But it's Jrod. I agree, although I think Samu has a better sprint on the flat.

 

[scullster46]

I'm not that crazy haha.

Unrelated, but I'd be interested in seeing how good Contador is in a sprint. He has good acceleration, and he showed on the stage 4 of the tour that he can be decent, but he really hasn't attempted a flat sprint. I'm saying this because I would like to see him attempt some classics and/or worlds in the future.

 

[El Pistolero]

I'm not that crazy haha.

Unrelated, but I'd be interested in seeing how good Contador is in a sprint. He has good acceleration, and he showed on the stage 4 of the tour that he can be decent, but he really hasn't attempted a flat sprint. I'm saying this because I would like to see him attempt some classics and/or worlds in the future.

He's horrible I think he could be voted worst sprinter in the peloton for sure

 

[theyoungest]

He's horrible I think he could be voted worst sprinter in the peloton for sure

Apart from nearly beating Cadel Evans on the Mur de Bretagne, and this year hardly contesting sprints because he's too busy gifting stages.

 

[Parrulo]

i think el pistolero was talking about his sprint on the flat. uphill ofc he can sprint. but on the flat he really isn't good at all.