2012 Giro d'Italia, May 7th, stage 3: Horsens → Horsens, 190K

[Ferminal]

I can see how you got that but that's not what I meant. I agree sending Renshaw home was wrong but is relegating and fining Ferrari enough? I get that's it's a hard decision but his actions almost cost several riders their Giro, luckily everyone was ok considering.

My point is if what Renshaw did supposedly warrented him being sent home, and there were no crashes due to his actions, then why not send Ferrari home for what he did which ended up in people getting hurt?

I personally don't think Ferrari should still be in the Giro. I guess everyone deserves a second chance if they are remorseful.

Ah I see. No problem

I don't clearly remember what Renshaw did and don't feel too compelled to dig it up again. Nor do I remember know exactly what the ruling was and why it was made. But him being removed doesn't mean that any sprinter who does something ugly has to be dropped from the race.

Whether or not there was a crash or somebody was hurt isn't entirely relevant. People get hurt in bunch falls all the time, are we supposed to find who is responsible and kick them out? Who can we punish for Wiggins, Brajkovic, Horner, Van den Broeck and Vino from last year's Tour? Crashes and the resulting injuries are always going to be part of cycling. But how many cases are there where someone intentionally tries to crash and harm his colleagues? From recent history I can only see Bos, maybe Karpets

Did Renshaw intentionally try to crash and cause harm to Dean/Farrar or whoever it was? Of course not.

Did Ferrari intentionally try to crash Cav and cause him to him? No, but that is what happened as a result of his terrible decision. The crash isn't important, it doesn't make what Ferrari did any better/worse. In an alternate reality maybe he made the same move, but instead of making contact with the rider behind he goes on to win the stage - he should still be relegated for this, just like Visconti last year.

If he goes out and does it again or it's a serial problem with a certain rider you would strongly consider their future in the race, but for one moment of poor judgement? That seems like a tough standard.

 

[Swabian Lass]

I don't clearly remember what Renshaw did and don't feel too compelled to dig it up again. Nor do I remember know exactly what the ruling was and why it was made. But him being removed doesn't mean that any sprinter who does something ugly has to be dropped from the race.

Renshaw headbutted Julian Dean. That's why he was kicked off the race. it went well beyond the usual banging and bumping of the sprint (which is sometimes deliberate and sometimes not).

Did Renshaw intentionally try to crash and cause harm to Dean/Farrar or whoever it was? Of course not.

I saw the incident and it was pretty clear to me that that was exactly what Renshaw was doing. You don't headbutt somebody like that if you don't intend to cause them harm.

Did Ferrari intentionally try to crash Cav and cause him to him? No, but that is what happened as a result of his terrible decision. The crash isn't important, it doesn't make what Ferrari did any better/worse.

No, what Ferrari did was reckless and you could argue it was unnecessarily dangerous, but I saw nothing to suggest that he intentionally tried to make Cavendish crash. He didn't have a clue that Cavendish was anywhere near him. That's why the punishment was appropriate. I don't think that what Ferrari did is anywhere near in the same class as what Renshaw did. One was an intentional "foul", the other was an extreme example of the kind of thing that goes on in sprints.

 

[fatsprintking]

Renshaw headbutted Julian Dean. That's why he was kicked off the race. it went well beyond the usual banging and bumping of the sprint (which is sometimes deliberate and sometimes not).



I saw the incident and it was pretty clear to me that that was exactly what Renshaw was doing. You don't headbutt somebody like that if you don't intend to cause them harm.



No, what Ferrari did was reckless and you could argue it was unnecessarily dangerous, but I saw nothing to suggest that he intentionally tried to make Cavendish crash. He didn't have a clue that Cavendish was anywhere near him. That's why the punishment was appropriate. I don't think that what Ferrari did is anywhere near in the same class as what Renshaw did. One was an intentional "foul", the other was an extreme example of the kind of thing that goes on in sprints.

Renshaw and Dean were never going to crash they were 100% in control of their bikes. Renshaw was over the top though and got the penalty that being a dill deserved. Ferrari's move is the type that could kill someone.

There was a bloke the other day down my way that got ****ed and then drove home. On the way he had a head on with a family driving home and they all died. He didnt mean to kill them, but his stupidity resulted in their death.

To me Ferrari's move is much worst than Renshaw's becuase of the level of danger. Renshaw was unsportsmanlike. Ferrari's was an idiot.

 

[Ferminal]

There was a bloke the other day down my way that got ****ed and then drove home. On the way he had a head on with a family driving home and they all died. He didnt mean to kill them, but his stupidity resulted in their death.

It's a stupid decision regardless of the consequences.

 

[I Watch Cycling In July]

I don't clearly remember what Renshaw did and don't feel too compelled to dig it up again. Nor do I remember know exactly what the ruling was and why it was made. But him being removed doesn't mean that any sprinter who does something ugly has to be dropped from the race.

Whether or not there was a crash or somebody was hurt isn't entirely relevant. People get hurt in bunch falls all the time, are we supposed to find who is responsible and kick them out? Who can we punish for Wiggins, Brajkovic, Horner, Van den Broeck and Vino from last year's Tour? Crashes and the resulting injuries are always going to be part of cycling. But how many cases are there where someone intentionally tries to crash and harm his colleagues? From recent history I can only see Bos, maybe Karpets

Did Renshaw intentionally try to crash and cause harm to Dean/Farrar or whoever it was? Of course not.

Did Ferrari intentionally try to crash Cav and cause him to him? No, but that is what happened as a result of his terrible decision. The crash isn't important, it doesn't make what Ferrari did any better/worse. In an alternate reality maybe he made the same move, but instead of making contact with the rider behind he goes on to win the stage - he should still be relegated for this, just like Visconti last year.

If he goes out and does it again or it's a serial problem with a certain rider you would strongly consider their future in the race, but for one moment of poor judgement? That seems like a tough standard.

I agree that the penalty shouldn't really be based on whether a bad crash followed the infringement.

Renshaw deliberately closed Farrar out against the barrier. (Iirc though, the decision referred to the head butting, which was not considered sufficiently genteel, instead of the dangerous and deliberate move Renshaw pulled, which effectively eliminated one of his team leader's rivals.)

Ferrari OTOH was a reckless wang ker but I saw no sign that he made a conscious decision to cut someone off.

I think an argument can be made for a lesser penalty for Ferrari than Renshaw, but Ferrari should get more than a slap on the wrist IMO.

 

[Swabian Lass]

Renshaw and Dean were never going to crash they were 100% in control of their bikes. Renshaw was over the top though and got the penalty that being a dill deserved. Ferrari's move is the type that could kill someone.

There was a bloke the other day down my way that got ****ed and then drove home. On the way he had a head on with a family driving home and they all died. He didnt mean to kill them, but his stupidity resulted in their death.

To me Ferrari's move is much worst than Renshaw's becuase of the level of danger. Renshaw was unsportsmanlike. Ferrari's was an idiot.

I don't know. Many, many years ago when I used to ride a bit more seriously, the only thing I was ever any good at was sprinting. (Good here is relative to the rest of my performance! I'm not making any claims!). I know that if I was sprinting full out and someone headbutted me there is no guarantee that I could have kept 100% control of my bike. Of course, Dean is a million times better rider than I was or ever could be, but do you really think that Renshaw was thinking "Oh he'll probably be OK" when he did that? Of course he wasn't. He wanted to get him and he didn't care if Dean came off his bike and was hurt in the process. I think that goes beyond unsportsmanlike.

Ferrari on the other hand was reckless and irresponsible, but he didn't intend to hurt anyone. Of course it was a stupid move, and it was absolutely right that he was punished, but I think that it still (just) fell within the bounds of what can happen in sprints. Sprinting is dangerous and to be honest, if you want to win, you have to take risks. Sometimes you take a risk and somebody else gets hurt - then you take the rap. To me, though, that's very different to what Renshaw did.

 

[Zam_Olyas]

Renshaw and Thomas are happy to dish it out to Ferrari for his stupid mistake but they said nothing about Cav from the Tour de Suisse. They just turned a blind eye to it.

After winning stage 2 Cav was criticising Farrar saying he is always swinging from right to left in the sprint and now he is going around as if he never did anything wrong on a sprint himself.

Ferrari never saw Cav when he moved out right and took him down. Cav did see Haussler but he still made that stupid move when he cut across him.

Ferrari deserves the criticism he is getting from a racing perspective for the stupid move he did, but some of the criticism he is getting is making him out to be some sort of criminal. Give me a break.

Like Sean Kelly said it is bike racing and unfortunately this won`t be the last crash we see in a sprint. The way people are going around it is as if this crash was the first one the ever seen in a finishing sprint.

For some Ferrari is the devil incarnate lol. To be serious, i agree with your post.

 

[fatsprintking]

I don't know. Many, many years ago when I used to ride a bit more seriously, the only thing I was ever any good at was sprinting. (Good here is relative to the rest of my performance! I'm not making any claims!). I know that if I was sprinting full out and someone headbutted me there is no guarantee that I could have kept 100% control of my bike. Of course, Dean is a million times better rider than I was or ever could be, but do you really think that Renshaw was thinking "Oh he'll probably be OK" when he did that? Of course he wasn't. He wanted to get him and he didn't care if Dean came off his bike and was hurt in the process. I think that goes beyond unsportsmanlike.

Ferrari on the other hand was reckless and irresponsible, but he didn't intend to hurt anyone. Of course it was a stupid move, and it was absolutely right that he was punished, but I think that it still (just) fell within the bounds of what can happen in sprints. Sprinting is dangerous and to be honest, if you want to win, you have to take risks. Sometimes you take a risk and somebody else gets hurt - then you take the rap. To me, though, that's very different to what Renshaw did.

Renshaw did not want to to knock Dean of his bike, he wanted to move him becuase he was panicking that Cavendish was boxed in which was why Julian was where he was, cause they knew this was the best way to beat Cavendish. Renshaw panicked and went a bit stupid but Dean was a hard **** and stuck to his guns. To be honest it looked a lot worse than it was. His move on Farrar after that was the worse crime.

 

[Boardslide]

Renshaw and Thomas are happy to dish it out to Ferrari for his stupid mistake but they said nothing about Cav from the Tour de Suisse. They just turned a blind eye to it.

After winning stage 2 Cav was criticising Farrar saying he is always swinging from right to left in the sprint and now he is going around as if he never did anything wrong on a sprint himself.

Ferrari never saw Cav when he moved out right and took him down. Cav did see Haussler but he still made that stupid move when he cut across him.

Ferrari deserves the criticism he is getting from a racing perspective for the stupid move he did, but some of the criticism he is getting is making him out to be some sort of criminal. Give me a break.

Like Sean Kelly said it is bike racing and unfortunately this won`t be the last crash we see in a sprint. The way people are going around it is as if this crash was the first one they ever seen in a finishing sprint.

Cav's comments do not refer to the sprint finale but to the last 3km of a race, if you look at farrar's movement on stage 2 during those last 3 kms you will see him bumping and bargeing going all over the place trying to get into position. Many on this forum commented at the time on this fact stating that he had no respect within the peloton. Cav has made this obsovation on many occasions not only now and by reviewing many stages you will see that they are correct.

 

[plooton]

see this vid. Favelli jumping over Cavendish fallen and lying on the road.
http://video.gazzetta.it/giro-di-italia/index.shtml

 

[Don Johnson]

Renshaw and Thomas are happy to dish it out to Ferrari for his stupid mistake but they said nothing about Cav from the Tour de Suisse. They just turned a blind eye to it.

After winning stage 2 Cav was criticising Farrar saying he is always swinging from right to left in the sprint and now he is going around as if he never did anything wrong on a sprint himself.

Ferrari never saw Cav when he moved out right and took him down. Cav did see Haussler but he still made that stupid move when he cut across him.

Ferrari deserves the criticism he is getting from a racing perspective for the stupid move he did, but some of the criticism he is getting is making him out to be some sort of criminal. Give me a break.

Like Sean Kelly said it is bike racing and unfortunately this won`t be the last crash we see in a sprint. The way people are going around it is as if this crash was the first one they ever seen in a finishing sprint.

Italians riding Italian bikes, are generally better bike handlers then riders from other countries. What Ferrari did was make an unnecessary move and cause A CRASH WHICH WAS UNAVOIDABLE to the other riders. It happens, in bunch sprints in races like the GIRO and TOUR. All the riders (SPRINTERS)want face time for themselves and sponsors.

Again, watching old footage of Italians great bike handlers, and every Italian bike(or copy of Italian Racing geometry) is something magnificent to behold.

 

[ElChingon]

see this vid. Favelli jumping over Cavendish fallen and lying on the road.
http://video.gazzetta.it/giro-di-italia/index.shtml

Here's the direct link:

http://video.gazzetta.it/racconto-i...horsens-/01a74018-9941-11e1-918c-5f02d8042a39

Wish there was a ground view to see the height he got to jump over him, Cav owes him a big thanks.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

That line was Cav's and he wins a lot of races not just on sheer speed, but on putting himself in the right spot...which is exactly where he was...

Absolutely not. Cav was too far back. He was the fastest guy and he was on the right line, but had he been led out as well as he often has been, or had he and his leadout managed to avoid him getting boxed in, he would never have been in a position for Ferrari to think he could pull such a move in the first place. I'm not saying Cavendish was at fault - obviously he wasn't - but a guy with a strong leadout and a guy as good as Cavendish would not normally be placed behind Ferrari in the sprint, but he got boxed. Ferrari's move was boneheaded at best and downright irresponsible, but he may not have expected a rider to be coming from behind him with the speed Cavendish was coming at, and thought he had a lot more room than he actually had. Against lesser sprinters, it would have been reckless, but with a guy as fast as Cavendish coming up behind him (which is probably not an experience Ferrari is used to dealing with!) it was downright suicidal.

 

[joe_papp]

Absolutely not. Cav was too far back...Ferrari's move was boneheaded at best and downright irresponsible...it was downright suicidal.

Agreed that Cav' was out of position to contest the sprint effectively. With Ferrari's move, there is no "best" though - there's no way to mitigate the recklessness and disrespect and contempt for his fellow riders that Ferrari's move conveyed.

Since the race jury is obviously incapable of enforcing the minimum standards of "respect" and professional courtesy that sprinters like Cavendish and Boonen have noted is in short supply in bunch finishes these last few years, it's really up to Ferrari's peers to seek retribution on the road and make an example of him. The downside to the absence of Lance from pro cycling is that there is NO patrón you can turn to - or collude with - in moments like these when his existence would be beneficial to ensuring that kamikaze riders who would otherwise put the entire bunch in danger are intimidated into following a less-dangerous course.

I won't recite specific instances of the "street justice" that I'm referring to, but it's happened in the past, and it should happen now. Ferrari's contempt for Cav', Phinney and others was confirmed by the interview he gave after the race, and the fact that he put forth a more contrite face later, only after Savio had attempted damage control, is meaningless and should in no way be interpreted as evidence that he cares about the damage he did or that he feels chastened.

As long as it can be done without endangering any other riders, Ferrari's one-way ticket on the roadrash/broken jaw express should be punched. He's a kamikaze and there's only one way to neutralize a kamikaze: take him out before he takes you down.

 

[bridgeman]

Take it to the bank. There will be macho head games directed at Ferrari for quite some time.

 

[Parrulo]

Here's the direct link:

http://video.gazzetta.it/racconto-i...horsens-/01a74018-9941-11e1-918c-5f02d8042a39

Wish there was a ground view to see the height he got to jump over him, Cav owes him a big thanks.

That guy could retire now knowing he did one of the most awesome things ever in cycling (i may overdoing it a bit here )

 

[Don Johnson]

Agreed that Cav' was out of position to contest the sprint effectively. With Ferrari's move, there is no "best" though - there's no way to mitigate the recklessness and disrespect and contempt for his fellow riders that Ferrari's move conveyed.

Since the race jury is obviously incapable of enforcing the minimum standards of "respect" and professional courtesy that sprinters like Cavendish and Boonen have noted is in short supply in bunch finishes these last few years, it's really up to Ferrari's peers to seek retribution on the road and make an example of him. The downside to the absence of Lance from pro cycling is that there is NO patrón you can turn to - or collude with - in moments like these when his existence would be beneficial to ensuring that kamikaze riders who would otherwise put the entire bunch in danger are intimidated into following a less-dangerous course.

I won't recite specific instances of the "street justice" that I'm referring to, but it's happened in the past, and it should happen now. Ferrari's contempt for Cav', Phinney and others was confirmed by the interview he gave after the race, and the fact that he put forth a more contrite face later, only after Savio had attempted damage control, is meaningless and should in no way be interpreted as evidence that he cares about the damage he did or that he feels chastened.

As long as it can be done without endangering any other riders, Ferrari's one-way ticket on the roadrash/broken jaw express should be punched. He's a kamikaze and there's only one way to neutralize a kamikaze: take him out before he takes you down.

Wondering here if Ferraris' bonehead move(when he himself had no chance of a podium was collusion with other teams to block Cavendish.
From what I understand these mini 'mafias' might form to block a certain rider, and for sure Ferraris move was a blocking move.
Again without a patron or godfather in the peloton, these moves like Ferraris' will continue to happen, over and over and riders like Haussler, Boonen, Cav, Farrar, Phinney will be taken out. That is really unfortunate, to lose quality riders for no real benefit to the sport as a whole.

 

[Sylvester]

Yes. I heard the vile Italians and Spaniards are all mafiosi; all of them try to take as much Anglosaxon riders out as possible. You remember that orange rider, VELASCO, taking down Lance in the 2010 Tour? He was payed by Contador VELASCO to fall right in front of him. As Cav at top speed goes as fast as a FERRARI, it's no wonder FERRARI tried to knock him out deliberately. These moves will become more and more frequent. You noticed these Italian herbs attacking Phinney yesterday? They obviously saw him as a big threat.

We need a new LANCE to put an end to these terrible moves. Lance even chased SIMEONI down, and hell, Simeoni was a big capo in this fearful mafia! Our next all-American TDF winner, Taylor PHINNEY, just needs to man up a little: he might become the hero to finally stop these vilains!

 

[mb2612]

Wondering here if Ferraris' bonehead move(when he himself had no chance of a podium was collusion with other teams to block Cavendish.
From what I understand these mini 'mafias' might form to block a certain rider, and for sure Ferraris move was a blocking move.
Again without a patron or godfather in the peloton, these moves like Ferraris' will continue to happen, over and over and riders like Haussler, Boonen, Cav, Farrar, Phinney will be taken out. That is really unfortunate, to lose quality riders for no real benefit to the sport as a whole.

No, Ferrari had a very good shot at a podium, Farrar got third, and he could have easily jumped past had he been in the slip stream.

Ferrari saw Farrar go and realised that his wheel was the place to be, he just saw it too late and Cav was already there. Stupid and dangerous, but not deliberate.

 

[KEEP US]

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