2014 Cleanest Peloton Ever

[Benotti69]

Same Vroomen who thinks Sastre was clean?

Same Vroomen who claims he saw no doping when with Riis and never suspected anything.

Oil for Drugs raids Arrest 10/06/2004
Puerto list (active in 2006) Investigation 30/06/2006
Basso cleared Investigation 27/10/2006
Puerto Court 31 judgement Hearing evidence 08/03/2007
Basso suspension Temporary suspension 15/06/2007
Santuccione suspension Permanent ban 18/12/2007
Giustarini suspension Permanent ban 28/12/2007
Balestri, Barotti RS and Barotti A suspensions Permanent ban 10/03/2008
Coconi suspension Permanent ban 21/04/2008
Guidi suspension Temporary suspension 08/05/2008
Nocera suspension Permanent ban 19/05/2008
Bebto suspension Permanent ban 10/07/2008
Puerto - Schleck link Investigation 26/07/2008
Schleck qualified admission Admission statement 03/10/2008

all Riis related at CSC and Vroomen suspected nothing.

 

[pmcg76]

French dont dope? Since when;

Remy Di Gergorio
STEVE HOUANARD
SÉBASTIEN TURGOT
SYLVAIN GEORGES
JIMMY CASPER
YOANN OFFREDO
AURÉLIEN DUVAL
LAURENT BROCHARD
DIDIER ROUS
PIERRE ROLLAND
MICKAËL LARPE

a quick scan of the brilliant dopeology.org throws up the above recent French riders with violations.

Do you see anyone claiming that all French riders don't dope?? Interesting that 16 years ago is still recent according to you as Rous and Brochard are on the list.

Turgot was cleared of any wrongdoing, DiGregorio was never convicted of anything, Offredo was whereabouts violations whilst Rolland never tested positive for anything other than low cortisol level, which is not an offence under any anti-doping law other than an agreement with the MPCC.

Duval was done for an appetite suppressant and Georges was done for heptimol, a muscle realxer.

Good to see that you came up with a list of some major dopers there

 

[Benotti69]

Do you see anyone claiming that all French riders don't dope?? Interesting that 16 years ago is still recent according to you as Rous and Brochard are on the list.

Turgot was cleared of any wrongdoing, DiGregorio was never convicted of anything, Offredo was whereabouts violations whilst Rolland never tested positive for anything other than low cortisol level, which is not an offence under any anti-doping law other than an agreement with the MPCC.

Duval was done for an appetite suppressant and Georges was done for heptimol, a muscle realxer.

Good to see that you came up with a list of some major dopers there

Did i claim that all French dope?

Brochard rode for BOUYGUES TELECOM till 2008 Rous till 2007, which is recent

A wherabouts violation is considered an AAF. But dont let that get in the way of you doping apology.

Rolland never tested positive, neither did Armstrong.

Duval tested positive after Stage 1 of the 2009 edition of the Circuit Franco-Belge and was suspended for two years. I suppose he was banned for fun, not for testing positive.

Georges returned a positive test before or after Stage 7 of the 2013 Giro d'Italia and was removed from the race according to the rules of the MPCC, of which his team was a member. The team also endured a self-imposed 8-day suspension from competition.

 

[pmcg76]

Did i claim that all French dope?

Brochard rode for BOUYGUES TELECOM till 2008 Rous till 2007, which is recent

A wherabouts violation is considered an AAF. But dont let that get in the way of you doping apology.

Rolland never tested positive, neither did Armstrong.

Duval tested positive after Stage 1 of the 2009 edition of the Circuit Franco-Belge and was suspended for two years. I suppose he was banned for fun, not for testing positive.

Georges returned a positive test before or after Stage 7 of the 2013 Giro d'Italia and was removed from the race according to the rules of the MPCC, of which his team was a member. The team also endured a self-imposed 8-day suspension from competition.

So nobody claimed that all French riders don't dope, so you decided to put up a list of French riders who tested positive, some of who were cleared and never actually tested positive or were banned.

Erm, so what was the point of putting up a list as some sort of counterpoint against a claim nobody made

Well Rous and Brochard had long careers but their offences were 16 years ago, Rous became strongly outspoken against doping post Festina. Who was it that called Joseba Beloki out? Brochard also developed a rep as a clean rider post Festina.

 

[Benotti69]

So nobody claimed that all French riders don't dope, so you decided to put up a list of French riders who tested positive, some of who were cleared and never actually tested positive or were banned.

the claim is french in top 10 points to cleaner peloton

Erm, so what was the point of putting up a list as some sort of counterpoint against a claim nobody made

Still valid, but that doesn't stop you going off one, does it....

Well Rous and Brochard had long careers but their offences were 16 years ago, Rous became strongly outspoken against doping post Festina. Who was it that called Joseba Beloki out? Brochard also developed a rep as a clean rider post Festina.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

I'd say including Casper is pretty unfair. Jimmy Casper's positive was for corticosteroids which he got a TUE backdated for. This was within the levels that he'd had a TUE for twelve years for, but due to an administrative mix-up the papers hadn't been renewed in time, and he was exonerated. A few of the others who have only sort-of been busted are mentioned above. However, no mention of Clément L'Hotellerie? Wasn't he straight up EPO? That'd suggest he was a more blatant doper than most of the above. Larpe was EPO as well iirc.

But of the upper echelon riders that fans trust at least to some extent, there is a disproportionate number of French riders. It is also, however, true, that they are mostly of a generation that is now aging - Bassons (1974), Moncoutié (1975), Casar (1979), Fedrigo (1978), Engoulvent (1979) - while obviously Bassons is the ultimate example due to his premature retirement from being hounded out of the péloton, there you have a few riders from the "péloton à deux vitesses" era who have carved out successful niches for themselves whilst being seen as mainly clean, either by being explicitly named as so, speaking up against it or generally being well-reputed. It is perhaps also worth noting that there aren't so many young French riders who either come with the cached goodwill of a Fedrigo or Casar or who are as willing to talk smack about dopers and ex-dopers as Engoulvent, and perhaps that does speak of the generational gap talked about above, with the "péloton à deux vitesses" era now being over.

I know there are also French riders from the generation born in the mid- to late-seventies who don't come with a positive reputation too - e.g. Gadret - but all of the French riders with the biggest level of trust, and among whom the stereotypical "French guys don't dope" reputation has been built, are of that older generation now.

 

[pmcg76]

I'd say including Casper is pretty unfair. Jimmy Casper's positive was for corticosteroids which he got a TUE backdated for. This was within the levels that he'd had a TUE for twelve years for, but due to an administrative mix-up the papers hadn't been renewed in time, and he was exonerated. A few of the others who have only sort-of been busted are mentioned above. However, no mention of Clément L'Hotellerie? Wasn't he straight up EPO? That'd suggest he was a more blatant doper than most of the above. Larpe was EPO as well iirc.

But of the upper echelon riders that fans trust at least to some extent, there is a disproportionate number of French riders. It is also, however, true, that they are mostly of a generation that is now aging - Bassons (1974), Moncoutié (1975), Casar (1979), Fedrigo (1978), Engoulvent (1979) - while obviously Bassons is the ultimate example due to his premature retirement from being hounded out of the péloton, there you have a few riders from the "péloton à deux vitesses" era who have carved out successful niches for themselves whilst being seen as mainly clean, either by being explicitly named as so, speaking up against it or generally being well-reputed. It is perhaps also worth noting that there aren't so many young French riders who either come with the cached goodwill of a Fedrigo or Casar or who are as willing to talk smack about dopers and ex-dopers as Engoulvent, and perhaps that does speak of the generational gap talked about above, with the "péloton à deux vitesses" era now being over.

I know there are also French riders from the generation born in the mid- to late-seventies who don't come with a positive reputation too - e.g. Gadret - but all of the French riders with the biggest level of trust, and among whom the stereotypical "French guys don't dope" reputation has been built, are of that older generation now.

Here is the thing and this applies to a lot of the younger guys, not just the French. Pinot & Bardet are 23/24. That means they were 7/8 when Festina happened. 14/15 when Armstrong retired/Puerto happened and turned pro at 20/21. What do they really know about the history of the sport compared to a lot of the hardcore fans on here. I would wager that you and plenty of others know more about the sport's history than 95% of the pro peloton

I think there is this idea that every pro knows the history of the sport when many dont and many are so young their memory only goes back 6/7 years anyway. I remember an interview with EBH in which he said he knew nothing of the sports history, nothing about Merckx, Hinault, LeMond or even Indurain.

I also don't think the average pro spends their time poring over every doping case that ever happened. I would imagine most are wrapped up in their own career to even care. If the likes of Di Luca and Frei are to be believed, then doping is not really an open subject any more on teams so other than gossip, there is no real hard evidence of anything.

I can understand perfectly why most young guys keep their head down, they don't know a lot and don't want the extra hassle. I am sure they are off the opinion that if something has nothing to do with them, they don't really care. They are after all young self-centred sportsmen so what to expect??

 

[Benotti69]

Young French guys on French teams run by ex dopers, what is the difference to a young Danish guy on a Riis team or a Kim andersen team, young Yanks on a JV or OCh team.

Landis in 2011 said he never felt he cheated anyone in the sport and said in 2011 he did not see anything different. Why is 2014 any different from 2011, 2005, 2003......?

 

[pmcg76]

Young French guys on French teams run by ex dopers, what is the difference to a young Danish guy on a Riis team or a Kim andersen team, young Yanks on a JV or OCh team.

Landis in 2011 said he never felt he cheated anyone in the sport and said in 2011 he did not see anything different. Why is 2014 any different from 2011, 2005, 2003......?

And Thomas Frei who rode for Astana and BMC is on record as saying that no manager/DS ever forced him or told him to dope and it was totally his own decision to dope.

So in that case, even though Frei was surrounded by all these shady caharacters, it was ultimately his own choice.

 

[The Hitch]

If Vroomen had said that the French doing well was a sign of them getting back on the doping bandwagon big time, you can bet your bottom dollar there would be plenty rowing in saying this was likely accurate info from a knowledgable insider. It only ever seems to work one way in here.

What do I care what you think some people that have nothing to do with me might say in some hypothetical situation.

How does that have any relevance whatsoever to my comment that nationality is not an acceptable standard by which to judge cleanliness?

 

[PosterBill]

I think this is the cleanest year since the arrival of epo. I just dont see a new drug on the horizon that was as easily accessible as epo, or that far under the radar with such risk/reward benefits as epo. I believe we have come fairly close to eradicating epo from the field even though its taken way to long with way too much corruption etc...if a new drug exists then i believe they ll be a lag between its wide spread usuage and just a handful of guys getting results...I dont really believe u can create an antidoping culture in any sport but its not the free for all culture of the past imho

 

[Nicko.]

...

I believe we have come fairly close to eradicating epo from the field even though its taken way to long with way too much corruption etc...

I believe not...

Current markers of the Athlete Blood Passport do not flag microdose EPO doping.

 

[Benotti69]

And Thomas Frei who rode for Astana and BMC is on record as saying that no manager/DS ever forced him or told him to dope and it was totally his own decision to dope.

So in that case, even though Frei was surrounded by all these shady caharacters, it was ultimately his own choice.

Yeah, sure that is why the BMC soignuer was caught with 200+epo vials.

 

[hrotha]

Yeah, sure that is why the BMC soignuer was caught with 200+epo vials.

I don't see the contradiction.

 

[Benotti69]

I don't see the contradiction.

So Frei went off campus to do his own thing while the team were 'preparing' other riders. That don't make sense as why would a team risk a rider doing his own thing and not being 'professional' and getting caught.

BMC are not some cheapo outfit, where riders only can get so much 'preparation' then need to do their own thing on the side to boost their 'preparation'.....

 

[hrotha]

Facilitating doping != forcing riders to dope.

 

[Ferminal]

Yeh Evans, Gilbert, Hushovd etc with massive form slumps definitely looks like Uncle Andy handing out the juice left right and centre.

 

[thrawn]

Yeh Evans, Gilbert, Hushovd etc with massive form slumps definitely looks like Uncle Andy handing out the juice left right and centre.

Well Cadel's performance in his first 2 years at BMC was an improvement on his time at Lotto. Gilbert & Hushovd just tanked from the moment they joined.

 

[meat puppet]

Well Cadel's performance in his first 2 years at BMC was an improvement on his time at Lotto. Gilbert & Hushovd just tanked from the moment they joined.

Well, if my memory serves, there was the tb 500 and epo related bust in the summer of 2011 that might have curbed the team's enthusiasm a bit, no?

 

[Benotti69]

Yeh Evans, Gilbert, Hushovd etc with massive form slumps definitely looks like Uncle Andy handing out the juice left right and centre.

Evans won a TdF!

It aint the riders that win the races, it is the doctors. Ferrari, Ibauguren, Leinders........

 

[Benotti69]

Let us see the levels of outrage from the 'new generation' about the old generation wanting Armstrong to be given his wins back

no doubt the silence will be deafening

 

[doperhopper]

thread title confirmed by none other than....

"There's less doping going on in cycling, I believe, than there ever has been in the history of cycling."

...yes, PhatPat

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/mcquaid-says-he-started-menchov-doping-proceedings

 

[DirtyWorks]

thread title confirmed by none other than....

"There's less doping going on in cycling, I believe, than there ever has been in the history of cycling."

...yes, PhatPat

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/mcquaid-says-he-started-menchov-doping-proceedings

I'm convinced the UCI has a communications manual and "cleanest peloton ever" is one of the approved messages.

 

[movingtarget]

Cadel Thinks It's Much Cleaner

http://www.smh.com.au/sport/cycling...in-years-says-cadel-evans-20140717-zu8o0.html

Cadel says the sport is the cleanest it has been since he started as a pro cyclist.

 

[The Hitch]

So does Cadel accept Armstrong doped yet?